The O-line isn't always to blame

[PushthePile]

Did you watch the opener against NE, did Edwards play well?

Yes and a good backup can give you a game here and there if needed.

[Guest dog14787]

Really dog you swoon over TE in every thread and he continues to make you look like a clown. This thread was started to discuss the way a good QB would have performed behind this line. It was inevitable TE was going to be brought up.

 

 

Funny, bet I could go through this thread and its you who keeps bringing up TE, and you look like a clown with your silly O-line argument which is what this thread was supposed to be all about to begin with If I remember correctly.

[PushthePile]

Funny, bet I could go through this thread and its you who keeps bringing up TE, and you look like a clown with your silly O-line argument which is what this thread was supposed to be all about to begin with If I remember correctly.

You never remember correctly and have proven your inability to have a normal discussion again. You seem like a nice guy but the routine is getting old.

[Guest dog14787]

You never remember correctly and have proven your inability to have a normal discussion again. You seem like a nice guy but the routine is getting old.

 

 

I'll gladly leave you to your thread buddy, I'm feeling the same way about you.

 

I'll also admit when I'm wrong , I brought up TE's name many more times then you did, my bad...

[Thurman#1]

See below for a comparison of two teams that totally debunks that "fact"...

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?...t&p=1629957

 

If it all started up front, wouldn't the team with the better o-line be 6-3, and the team with the weak o-line be 3-6, and not the other way around?

 

Or is it possible that Push is right?

 

 

 

You say in the post that you reference that the Steelers o-line is equal to ours because they've given up the same number of sacks. This is really misguided.

 

Center:

 

PIT Justin Hartwig #24/34 of all Cs this year

BUF Hangartner #34/34

 

LG:

 

PIT Chris Kemoeatu #21/75 of all Gs this year

BUF Levitre #68/75

 

RG:

 

PIT Trai Essex #73/75 of all Gs this year

BUF Wood #57/75

 

LT:

 

PIT Max Starks #10/76 of all Ts this year

BUF Bell #76/76

 

RT:

 

PIT Willie Colon #4/76 of all Ts this year

BUF Chambers#50/76

 

These rankings are from profootballfocus.com

 

You are trying to say that Pittsburgh, because they've allowed an equal amount of sacks is thus an equal o-line. That's nowhere near true, to any neutral observer and in these stats as well.

 

The Steelers are much much better at tackle than we are, and are significantly better at four out of the five line positions. Wood grades out higher than PIT's RG, but both rank low. We have the lowest ranking player in the league at two positions, center and LT. PIT is top ten at two positions, the two tackles, which are the two most important positions. These two lines are just not comparable.

 

Pittsburgh's line is much better than ours. Much.

[Endless Ike]

I can't believe how many times I've read posts stating that Manning or Brady couldn't get it done behind this o-line. I firmly believe that is inherently false. IMO, if you put Manning on the Bills, we are in contention for the playoffs still (provided DJ wasn't the coach). I'd be willing to bet he even puts up similar to better numbers here.

 

I'm not discounting the problems this o-line has. The tackles are terrible and the unit is undisciplined. Top notch QBs can overcome these problems with superior skill sets, though. The type of skills our QBs most cetainly don't have. The best QBs in this league have incredible time clocks in their heads and they can feel pressure coming. Some of the best QBs in this league have dealt with lines as bad as ours and made it work. I see Rothlisburger do it all the time.

 

My point is yes the line sucks but a better than average QB could have made it work this year.

 

Tom Brady was sacked 21 times in 2007.

Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times in 2008.

Tom Brady has been sacked 12 times so far this year.

 

Our QBs are more like Cassel.

 

 

It's not impossible to be a great QB with a terrible line, but it is impossible to *LEARN* to be a great QB behind a terrible line.

 

Young guys with bad lines is a game over scenario...

[Alaska Darin]

Have you seen the Pack play this year? Your analysis of the situation in Green Bay couldn't be more foolish. Undefeated?

Leave him alone, he's rolling.

[thewildrabbit]

Did you watch the opener against NE, did Edwards play well?

Your response...

Yes and a good backup can give you a game here and there if needed.

Next Question, did Edwards play deteriorate as his starting offensive lineman started getting knocked out of the game and replaced by inferior players?

[thewildrabbit]

Another question, do all those other QB's you mention. Tom Brady-Payton Manning- Aaron Rodgers-Drew Brees-Ben Roethlisberger have superior O lines-superior coaching-superior schemes- superior teams- superior offenses- superior play callers ?

 

You seem to equate the 09 Packers 08 Steelers O line's as being the worst in the NFL because of the sacks given up by Rodgers and Roethlisberger. I equate the Buffalo Bills having the worst O line in the NFL because of inexperience, lack of talent in the back ups, injuries to the starters.

--------------------------------------------------

The Buffalo Bills have one of the worst, if not the worst offensive schemes in the NFL.

 

The have one of the worst play callers because he is a rookie and had two weeks to prepare for the season, so not entirely his fault.

 

The Bills have a second year O line coach, that didn't get the job done last year with seasoned veterans,this year they have mostly rookies. They actually stole a tackle from the packers practice squad and needed to start him.

 

You could start Jesus as the QB of the Bills, and if he gets hit as often as Edwards did, you can believe his play will deteriorate

[Thurman#1]

It's not an anomoly dude, it's a reality.

 

You can have a great OL, but without a QB the offense won't function well.

 

You can have a poor OL, but with a great QB the offense will function well.

 

Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true.

 

And as for the "anomoly" stuff, well:

 

- The Jets have allowed the 8th fewest sacks in the NFL, and lead the league in rushing, but they're below 0.500 because their QB play has been poor

- The Giants have allowed the 9th fewest sacks in the NFL, and have the 7th ranked rushing attack in the game, but they've lost 4 straight due to Eli Manning's steadily declining level of play

- The St. Louis Rams have allowed the 13th most sacks in the NFL (18, which is fewer than the prolific passing offenses of Minnesota, San Diego, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Green Bay) and rank 13th in the league in rushing yards per game, but cannot manage to score more than 11 PPG.

 

Then of course you've got offenses like Pittsburgh, Green Bay, and Philly that have OL's that give up equal or more sacks than Buffalo's, and running games that produce similar numbers to Buffalo's, but score more points and have much better passing offenses.

 

 

Am I to believe that these stats are anomolies as well?

 

So you can continue to dodge this point as much as you want, but the facts prove otherwise.

 

 

 

Nobody's trying to argue that the QB is unimportant.

 

Just that with a crappy OL, even good QBs are handicapped and eventually they start to play like bad QBs.

[Thurman#1]

I think Brady has had enough success in this league to think that his body of work speaks louder than one superbowl game. Any QB can be rocked and any o-line can fall apart but the debate isn't based on a game here and there.

 

 

I'm not attacking Tom Brady. One of the best two in the game, obviously. But he has been helped tremendously by having a consistently excellent OL. He simply hasn't faced consistent pressure over the course of his career.

 

Yet when you look at what happens when even such a terrific QB faces terrific pressure, it's very obvious that he has a much much harder time. That's all I am trying to show by looking at that SB. In that SB, the excellent Brady finally faced a hellacious pass rush and turned into a below-average QB. As they all do.

 

 

 

Rothlisburger has been under intense pressure since day 1 of his career. The guy is incredibly strong and overcomes constant pressure with his intangibles. Tom Brady is not a nimble player but he knows how to help his blockers by reading a blitz and buying time by shuffling only a few feet. Mcnabb is the same way, these guys sidestep danger and set up their blockers like RB would. Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning don't even have to move that much. They have the ability to feel the exact moment when blocking is about to breakdown. The ball is immediately jettison and downfield before a defender can get a fingernail on them. It's not even close most of the time.

 

Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, and Phillip Rivers are making plays because they are able to avoid pressure while looking downfield. Aaron Rodgers despite what some have stated incorrectly is having a fantastic season despite being put behind an ALL-time horrible line. The guy is taking his fair share of sacks but you don't have his stats without always having his sight downfield. The Pack have no defense, no o-line, no run game, no coaching staff, and Rodgers is having a very similar season to Peyton Manning.

 

 

What are you trying to show here? That good QBs make OLs look better? You will get no argument from me.

 

But the Pittsburgh OL is much better than the Buffalo OL. So are the OLs of every single QB you mentioned there. Every single one. Roethlisberger, another excellent QB by the way, is able to hold onto the ball for a long time back there sometimes. I love the guy's physical play, but if he held it that long with Buffalo's OL, he'd have 100 sacks instead of 50.

 

Rodgers is the only one of these guys operating behind an OL that can be compared to the Bills (favorably, by the way, but they're not that much better than the Bills like the others are). And as the season has gone along, Rodgers, who played extremely well at the beginning of the year, is starting to slip. His play is starting to fall off. And that's what happens when you play behind bad OLs.

 

 

It's easy to just regurgitate the same old "trenches" argument but when you take the time to really examine the truth it mostly points to the QB. It's no miracle that Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Mcnabb are always playing behind the best o-lines, despite injuries, rookies, and new blocking schemes. Why did our complete bust of a tackle Gandy protect Warner so well last season? The guy was a complete turnstile here, right?

 

The Bills have had a very shaky o-line this season. The unit most certainly needs to be shored up this off season. In the NFL, the defensive pressure is always one step away. I don't care if you have your pick of any o-lineman you want, the defense is going to get through. To be successful a signal caller has to identify WHEN it is breaking down. This team hasn't had a guy who could do that since Kelly. Trent has been like the majority of our QBs. He either can't feel it and gets crushed, or he bails early and kills the play before it starts.

 

 

The reason the "same old trenches argument" is "same old" is because it's frankly obviously true. It's common knowledge. That's why it gets made again and again.

 

Trent played very well at the start of his career, inconsistently, but you expect that of young QBs. But he had a very good internal clock and he threw downfield much more often. Not anymore. His clock has been destroyed from too many early hits.

[thewildrabbit]

I watched Joe Montana, (one of the greatest QB's ever to play in the NFL) go to Kansas City after he left SF and come to Buffalo for an AFC playoff game. I have a 20x30 print I shot myself of Bruce Smith standing over Joe as he holds his facemask with both hands as he lies on the stadium turf concussed, needless to say he didn't finish the game and the Bills went on to a super bowl. Ole Joe soon retired after that season.

 

My point, several... one horrific concussion can end a players career. Montana one of the greatest QB's ever, and went into an inferior offensive system and still played pretty well until he was knocked out by a concussion. Great QB's will play better then an average QB in any system to a point, once they start getting hit enough or concussed, then their play deteriorates no matter how great they are.

 

Players are only as good as the team around them for the most part, rarely does one great player manage to overcome an inept team.

[Thurman#1]

A few more things...

 

This current Buffalo Bills offensive scheme is total crap IMO, the last two seasons they have had very inferior play callers and lousy protection schemes. They had a rookie offensive line coach last year and he is in his second year this year.

 

How often do you see Big Ben get nailed by safety blitzer who came clean because nobody touched him on his blind side and then proceeded to drive him into the turf.

 

The current Buffalo offense needs a complete overhaul,O line, protections, formations, play calls, players in many positions.

 

Jauron was a great guy and all, but a horrid coach at finding assistants. I'll be greatly surprised if the next head coach keeps anyone from this current staff, except for perhaps Bobby April.

 

 

 

Absolutely right on.

[Thurman#1]

It's not impossible to be a great QB with a terrible line, but it is impossible to *LEARN* to be a great QB behind a terrible line.

 

Young guys with bad lines is a game over scenario...

 

 

 

Excellent point.

[Thurman#1]

I can appreciate the value of a good o-line for a rookie QB. Ideally a rookie QB doesn't play. Let's face it though, **** happens and ideal situations are rare. A good QB makes it work in all situations.

 

Rivers

Manning (both of them)

Brady

Mcnabb

Rothlisburger

Brees

Palmer

Rodgers

Favre

Flacco

Warner

Ryan ..........they all make this team very competitive.

 

Schaub

Cutler

Pennington

Orton

Romo

Hasselback ......... they would all make this team better.

 

 

 

It's hard to make a team competitive if you are lying in a hospital bed.

 

And here is where your argument really falls down. You're right that IF THOSE QBs PLAYED AT THEIR CURRENT LEVEL, they would absolutely help out in Buffalo. But what actually happens when QBs play behind genuinely terrible O-lines is that they play worse. They don't play at the same level, their play trends down. Sometimes it takes a while to happen and other times it is obvious from the first game, but QBs simply don't play as well behind terrible OLs. They just don't.

 

 

Just for the hell of it, I went to profootballfocus.com again to compare the "terrible" Green Bay line and the Bills line.

 

The tackles are rated fairly close, though since Bell is rated the worst in the league, our tackles are slightly worse.

 

But as for guards and centers, it's not even close, GB's guards and centers are much better.

[Pirate Angel]

Having the playcalling adjust to the strength of the offense has been as much to blame as anything. Remember the first few years Brady took over, all the pass plays where Dink and Dunk passes. From what I see Trent is Always looking to throw downfield. I havent seen three or 4 yard passess at all. IMO this would help the offense get some momentum, force the safeties up then you go over the top. We should be shooting to get 4 yards a play not 15.

[PushthePile]

It's hard to make a team competitive if you are lying in a hospital bed.

 

And here is where your argument really falls down. You're right that IF THOSE QBs PLAYED AT THEIR CURRENT LEVEL, they would absolutely help out in Buffalo. But what actually happens when QBs play behind genuinely terrible O-lines is that they play worse. They don't play at the same level, their play trends down. Sometimes it takes a while to happen and other times it is obvious from the first game, but QBs simply don't play as well behind terrible OLs. They just don't.

 

 

Just for the hell of it, I went to profootballfocus.com again to compare the "terrible" Green Bay line and the Bills line.

 

The tackles are rated fairly close, though since Bell is rated the worst in the league, our tackles are slightly worse.

 

But as for guards and centers, it's not even close, GB's guards and centers are much better.

Come on Thurman, player rankings? That is worth less than Madden rankings. How did they rank our two rookie guards without an NFL snap? Green Bay is having a much worse time blocking than us. They can't run the ball either.

[PushthePile]

I watched Joe Montana, (one of the greatest QB's ever to play in the NFL) go to Kansas City after he left SF and come to Buffalo for an AFC playoff game. I have a 20x30 print I shot myself of Bruce Smith standing over Joe as he holds his facemask with both hands as he lies on the stadium turf concussed, needless to say he didn't finish the game and the Bills went on to a super bowl. Ole Joe soon retired after that season.

 

My point, several... one horrific concussion can end a players career. Montana one of the greatest QB's ever, and went into an inferior offensive system and still played pretty well until he was knocked out by a concussion. Great QB's will play better then an average QB in any system to a point, once they start getting hit enough or concussed, then their play deteriorates no matter how great they are.

 

Players are only as good as the team around them for the most part, rarely does one great player manage to overcome an inept team.

Joe Montana in Kansas City is not even close to Joe Montana in San Fran. He was a shell of the player he once was. I took the time to look up the stats on "ole jim" in KC. It turns out he took far less sacks in KC as he did in San Fran, while posting some of his career high attempts. Kind of puts a damper on your theory.

 

The truth is Montana was old and couldn't take the hits anymore.

[Guest dog14787]

Joe Montana in Kansas City is not even close to Joe Montana in San Fran. He was a shell of the player he once was. I took the time to look up the stats on "ole jim" in KC. It turns out he took far less sacks in KC as he did in San Fran, while posting some of his career high attempts. Kind of puts a damper on your theory.

 

The truth is Montana was old and couldn't take the hits anymore.

 

 

been an !@#$ in TE's defense, you have my apology my friend...

[PushthePile]

Your response...

 

Next Question, did Edwards play deteriorate as his starting offensive lineman started getting knocked out of the game and replaced by inferior players?

Edwards play deteriorates because he is inconsistent. I mean if you really want to analyze the situation look no further than our 2 QBs.

 

Edwards 21 sacks on 109 attempts

 

Fitzpatrick 4 sacks on 77 attempts

 

The proof is in the pudding Rabbit. Neither guy is good but at least one of them has the instincts to get rid of the freaking ball. A quality QB feels the pressure but continues to scan the field and releases at the last moment. Fitz can do one of those things and TE struggles with both. The o-line must be fighting harder for Fitz right?