BillsVet
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Do the Bills really need more draft picks? don't they have 7-8 picks already?
Unless they plan on packaging and using some in some deals to acquire other players, I don't see why they need more, they can only hold so many players on the roster.
You're serious about the idea of having enough picks? I'd rather have more options than less and it's better to have a couple second round picks than one first rounder. The cost of a first round pick, along with the bust rate make it a big gamble. IMO, the draft practically begins in the second round. The Giants have made a living out of getting guys in lower rounds to contribute.
Someone once said that free agency is the penalty you pay for drafting poorly. And I agree with it. To get around the cap, teams are forced to find young and cheap talent (No Spitzer reference there, trust me) to stay within the framework of the cap, yet competitive.
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San Francisco:
Where overpaid players go to lose. Clements, Banta-Cain, Darrell Jackson, Ashley Lelie, Michael Lewis, Justin Smith, and now Bryant Johnson.
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Does this mean I'm younger?
Actually you stay the same age, and the women just get younger.
As the kids say, "It's all good."
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I posted this previously, and think it's a worthwhile point.
No one knows for sure if Bryant Johnson will sign with Buffalo. Recent signs indicate he's trying to shop his services, but there've been no takers as of now. It could very well end up that he realizes he's not wanted as much as he thinks he is and signs elsewhere.
If, and this is a big if, the Bills do not sign a decent receiver to complement Lee Evans, I believe it becomes necessary to draft one in the first, and certainly no later than the second round. The draft is deep at WR this year, with Malcolm Kelly, Limas Sweed, Devin Thomas, Mario Manningham, et al among others as good options, particularly the first three in that their size makes them more RZ worthy.
OTOH, the team owner has mentioned that while they need bigger receivers, rookies take time to develop. He's right, and most WR's in their rookie campaign aren't prolific. However, the offense needs options, and right now outside of Lynch and Lee Evans, there aren't too many. If nothing changes at WR before the draft, I see them going offense again in round 1 with a wideout.
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Many wanted Huff...no? i think it was Whitner that was the surprise, not a safety. I was hoping for Jimmy Williams.
Have to admit I was surprised Oakland passed on both Leinart and to a lesser degree Cutler. Al Davis has a great track record with QB's (Marc Wilson in 80 and Todd "weedboy" Marinovich in 91) Huff had an excellent college career, but I didn't see him going to the Raiders. I guess this year's draft will offer their own surprises in about 181 hours, but who's counting?
Quick trivia question: Who was drafted right after Marinovich in 91?
(Hint, he played with Buffalo earlier this decade)
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Yeah, that worked great for Minnesota last year, right???
You have to have both areas working well...
Well, throw in the fact their offense was horrible, and that their pass defense stunk up the joint, and yeah, stopping the run isn't going to be enough. I recall we beat them 17-12 despite yielding a late TD when McGee allowed his man to get open.
I realize that you have to stop the run and pass to be effective, I think a 4th grader can understand that one.
Besides, they had Brad Johnson starting. Need I say more?
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C'mon Bill from NYC, cheer up, there's no way we are going to take a CB with the #12 pick. Would you be upset if we traded back and then drafted a CB with our first pick? If we stay at our current pick then you can count on us taking one of three positions and that would be LB, RB or DT. That would put a smile on your face, wouldn't it?
Kinda like there was no way we were going to take a S with our first pick last year? Unless your name was Mike Mayock, chances are you didn't see that coming. I'm not commenting on the Whitner selection, but just saying, this franchise has taken unpredictability to another level.
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Where's Bill in NYC when you need him?
Are you joking? With all the weaknesses we have, CB in Round 1? Guess we'll be giving up 140 yards per game rushing again if that happens.
AARRGGH!!!
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Poor Gayle Sayers and Barbaro...they never stood a chance.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...mp;lid=tab2pos1
I'd still rather been in Pacman's predicament than Barbaro's. And to think all the horse probably got from a deal is more straw and hay. Pacman got strippers.
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Whoa buddy, why the attack? If you don't like how Marv deals, that's cool. I like what Marv has done and the way he handles himself. I don't think that every GM has to be sneaky and underhanded. We, unfortunately, have been in the top portion of the draft for quite some time and we'll be able to draft a quality prospect. That's no secret.
You obviously don't understand all the maneuvers teams make on each other during the draft. I'm all for honesty, but not between teams during the time leading to the draft. Honesty during draft time can get you screwed over big-time.
I think even the notion Buffalo uses a pick in the first or second on a CB makes many of us want to throw up. If Marv says he's going to build on the lines, and in fairness he's started doing that on the OL, then drafting a CB isn't all that honest, is it?
Sure it's nice to have 3 good CB's, but I'd rather have 3 good DT's. I'd rather stop the run really well and be adequate in the pass defense than vice-versa. We saw what that did for us last season.
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What you all don't seem to get is that what I said was Hargrove can play DT if necessary. He is a #4 DE (i.e. Depth, who can provide more depth for the DT's) They have their 2 starting DE's Schobel and Kelsay, with Denney as a Backup with Hargrove. (That gives the Bills 4 players at a position that only 2 see the field at a time)
As for DT, Buffalo has Tripplett, Walker and McCargo, all pretty much the starters in a rotation. Williams is also in the rotation, and they still have Anderson (yes I know that he is not the best, but hes depth right now with experience) That gives them 5 players at another position where only 2 see the field at a time with another player that can also play DT if it becomes absolutly necessary (Hargrove) Adding more players will only tie up more roster spots on the team, and cause them to use up more valuable resources. You would prefer they draft a backup DE/DT then a LB or RB who would become the starter?
I've said it in a couple posts today, The Cover 2 does not require the DT's to stop the run like most conventional defences, they are supposed to penetrate and get into the backfield to disrupt plays from happening. The LB's are the ones that are supposed to get to the LOS and stop the run if the DT's couldn't disrupt it in the backfield. Fletcher couldn't do this, he made the tackles too far downfield and thats why he was aloud to walk. Indy had a run D as bad as Buffalo until their one LB came back from injury around the playoffs, then like magic, they were able to stop the run. thats why the Cover 2 systems use smaller, quicker DT's
Tim Anderson may make the roster, but it will only be for Depth purposes, he won't see the field unless the Bills become hit with some injuries to the D-line
No, the Cover-2 isn't there to stop the run in a classical sense, but if you let teams go for 140 per game you're not going to be very successful. I don't care what kind of offense you have, they won't be getting on the field. Let's not forget so quickly how poor the run defense was. The fortunes of the team have too much riding on how we play the run.
Hargrove's spot as a pass-rushing DT now belongs to D. Walker. I recall reading Walker being a pass-rushing type DT who can come in on obvious passing downs. We no longer need Hargrove to fill that role for us, which makes him revert to being a backup DE.
Do not underestimate the DT's in this defense. I personally believe they are the most important part of the defense. Everything is a lot easier for the LB's and DB's if they play well and control the middle LOS. You can have the fastest LB in the league, but he's still going to make a lot of down-field tackles if the DT's can't do their job.
Your assessment of the Cover-2 is severely lacking btw. Perhaps a check of another website is in order.
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I am starting to think you are correct, and this would be a serious error in judgement IMO.
The run defense of this team is not going to improve from 28'th in the league, giving up
140 yards / game, to even anywhere near the middle of the pack adding one FA to the mix.
Signing Tim Anderson was also a good indication, and a bad move I think.
I'd have to agree. Walker is an excellent pass-rushing DT but isn't the type who excells in the run defense. It's a huge risk to depend on the existing roster to provide the difference. I don't think Walker's acquisition improves us, no matter who plays LB. We cannot control the defense LOS with those guys, and we lose sight of just how porous we defended the run last season.
As bad as Indy was against the run during the regular season with him, they still picked up Booger McFarland mid-season. Granted Bob Sanders helped there too, but a SS can't do much without the DL winning in the trenches.
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So many people have us going with Pittman in Round 2 I'm convinced it can't possibly happen. I don't think this draft will be as predictable as some "experts" are making it. Willis and Pittman aren't the slam dunk it's being made, but I wouldn't be disappointed should we select both.
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Tim Anderson is already a waste of a roster spot and will simply be cut if we get any kind of DT. I am also kind of sick of the Hargrove can play DT posts, too, because Hargrove is a DE who is only serviceable at DT on passing downs and passing downs only. It's the equivalent of saying that Ryan Denney is a DT but he's not. Neither can play DT on first and second downs. We have five DTs and exactly none of them are run stuffers, which is arguably the most important element of an NFL team and our greatest weakness last year. McCargo is our best hope at it and the only reason he is playing that position is because we have other guys to play the three gap. McCargo is probably better suited to play the position Tripplett and Walker play. We need a guy that disrupts the backfield on running plays. Kyle Williams was a surprise, not a good player.
I completely agree that K. Williams was a surprise, but I'm not going to bank on him stopping the run. The Bills DT's are not the sure thing people are making them out to be. As we get closer to the draft, it's looking like Amobi Okoye will be gone before we pick. I want nothing to do with Alan Branch and would rather see Willis should Okoye be gone.
There are too many players who play decent their first season and fall completely off the map their second. I'm just not going to rely on K. Williams, McCargo and of course Anthony Hargrove to help us stop the run. We know what we've got in Tripplett (who needed his face on a milk carton) and D. Walker is a pass rushing force it appears.
I'm not convinced of that rotation.
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Grabbing a LB and RB with our first two picks makes perfect sense, but of course we're not GM's of the Buffalo Bills. That said, I think Shaw might be a sleeper. Now I'm not saying because he's a PSU LB that this guarantees success, but being from a program that produces LB's is something that could further his progression in the NFL.
I'm all for DT's in the draft if Brown is in fact not a DE. If there's one position we're deep at, it's DE.
I think David Ball has some excellent possession skills and might contribute as a #3 WR. It'd be nice to get a WR higher, but we've got more pressing needs.
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McShay has his complete 7 round mock draft...he's got us going with the following:
1 (12) Patrick Willis LB Ole Miss
2 (43) Antonio Pittman RB Ohio St
3a(74) Tim Shaw LB Penn St
3b(92) Tarell Brown CB Texas
4 (111) Kareem Brown DE Miami
6 (184) Le'Ron McClain FB Alabama
7a (222) David Ball WR New Hampshire
7b (239) Anthony Pudewell TE Nevada
I really like it. I really do, except for one little thing. Rather not have anyone affiliated with the "U." Aside from that, we address some needs and get some potentially strong performers. Then again, who knows. Thoughts?
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In light of what King has said about the 07 draft being a group of about 8 elite players and then the next tier, I'm beginning to believe Buffalo remains at 12 and takes Okoye or Willis. Should neither be there, you might see another reach, but I doubt anyone is going to trade up to 12. I'm not saying offers are out of the question, but the likelihood that there's a player at 12 that won't be there at 18-24 is not as great this year.
WR C. Johnson, DE G. Adams, QB Russell, RB Peterson, DT Okoye, FS Landry, OT J. Thomas, and DE J. Anderson seem to be the eight elite. After that it really is a crap-shoot to predict who goes.
King may talk about coffee too much, be seems to have enough sources to remain credible.
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Ginn isn't the best WR on his own college team.
He runs fast.
No one will be trading up for Ginn.
Did you use the force to come up with that analysis?
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That's because, while we both have strong opinions, we aren't !@#$s. We listen, bicker, concede, etc. Good stuff, BV.
BTW, pretty much agreed on all the other stuff. We will see...one way or the other. Also, I'm not sure Marv's REALLY operating with a terribly restricted budget. I know Ralph's not just going to throw $$ around like Snyder, but, i think if Marv and the team REALLY want something, and can justify it, they will get it.
IMO, it is as it should be.
I've read in multiple areas that perhaps Buffalo is positioning itself for the 2008 free agent class. We know Briggs isn't happy in Chicago and is probably playing out the season. Not sure as to else will be available, but you never know.
Perhaps C to the C is just a one year phenomenon.
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I agree with all of that, for the most part. Although, if you're 5th rounder beats out your 1st rounder, that MIGHT say something about your 5th rounder and your scouting depts ability to find hidden gems. The total draft grade wouldn't change much, IMO if the 5th rounder ended up being the solid starter and the #1 a good rotational guy, instead of the other way around. The money for the two is the same and the output for the two is the same. Big picture...big picture.
Marv works in concert with others as GM, just as he did as HC. He knows the game, is a great manager and motivator. I can't find many reasons to doubt his ability to turn this thing totally around. This is tough for me to say about anyone but I gotta say: Trust in Marv. He's earned it, IMO. As an old and very experienced manager, I've learned that, when you have someone talented, with a good track record, who you trust...you let them do the job their way and judge them on the total result of their efforts (not on each individual decision, out of context). So far, it looks as though Marv is doing a fine job of changing this team for the better. Hell, I didn't like the Whitner choice when it happened. WTF?, I thought. But, it worked.
All I ask is that some of you give Marv the time it takes to do the job right. How many here went crazy when Saban went to Miami and thought, "The Bills are Doomed"? Look what happened there.
When you look at the whole, I think Miami is going through a lot of what the Bills experienced a few years ago:
Veteran QB (slow and past his prime) is brought in to be the guy...fails and sets the team back.
New Head Coach replaces the old/crappy head coach and is the guy...fails and sets the team back
...etc...
Perhaps I'm wrong, but i think Marv was brought in to turn this team around in three (or so) years...then pass it one, in good shape...to a younger long-term GM. The Bills could have ended up with the culture of Miami/Cincy/Jacksonvillle...Marv won't let that happen. The Bills could go for the quick fix like the Redskins...Marv and Ralph won't let that happen. The Bills could keep trying a failed pattern like the Lions...again, Marv would never do that.
Marv is re-building this team to be young, smart and hungry. He's managed to do it while WINNING more games in his first year of the turnover than the previous year. I expect more improvement (despite the losses) this year. By 2008 (the third year of the Marv program) this should be a SB contender...certainly a solid playoff team. I see nothing in the moves-to-date to change my mind on that.
Dean you and I always seem to start out rough and then slowly come to agreement. Funny stuff.
I think K. Williams was an excellent college player. He always plays with heart and a "high motor." But in the NFL that's not always enough. We'll see how both he and McCargo contribute next season. I'm just not convinced he can provide part of the solution at DT yet. Our run defense criticism seems to wane during the off-season, but during the regular season we weren't stopping anyone. How much upside Williams has is the question. Can he improve or is he the type that has maxed out his abilities?
Marv is indeed rebuilding this team. He was left with a bill of goods that went 5-11 in 05 but ultimately had some talent. TD did leave him Losman, Evans, Peters, Schobel, Kelsay, Crowell, and others. He didn't start from scratch but did have some big decisions to make with NC, and this season whether or not to let WM, LFB, and TKO depart.
The 2006 draft has to be one of the more polarizing events in team history. What's done is done...you and I can talk all we want but it's not going to make a difference. Whitner is on the team and most likely the starter for the forseeable future.
Marv's signature will continue to be more predominant on this team. Whether or not he can build a winner with reduced financial means remains to be seen. Either way, he's working with a lot less than most GM's in that regard. He's probably got one of the hardest jobs in football-having to work for a penny-pinching owner and still deliver. I hope he can do it.
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I agree it's too early to give the draft a FINAL grade. But, just like in school, grades are given throughout the "semester". I'd consider a preliminary grade after one year to be something along the lines of a quarter-term grade. So, far, last years draft is contributing to the team at a very high level.
I didn't realize we had decided Allen was a bust and McCargo was a difference maker (I never get the memos anymore). but, for what it's worth, McCargo seemed to be improving and contributing before he got injured. OTOH, Allen was healthy all year and never managed to break through (a VERY weak secondary) to become a starter. Still, he may end up being fine.
Giving preliminary draft grades is fine, as long as you qualify the grade, IMO. Giving draft grades right after the draft, before any have played a game in the NFL, is just a meaningless exercise.
One more thing, you have just confused me (that's not hard, I fairly easily confused). Let me see if I have this right: Marv is to blame for the reach on Whitner, but he doesn't get credit for a good draft. Do I have that right?
I believe Marv works more in concert with the other leaders they have in the front office...Overdorf, Modrak, Guy, and DJ than most GM's do with their front office types. To blame one individual is ridiculous for any decision because we simply don't know how they arrived at the Whitner and McCargo decisions. I'm willing to bet the decision was made by committee, much like C. Bennett was in 87. And I'm willing to bet DJ being the defense first type had a big hand in it.
I'll go along with mid-term grades, they've had some 06 picks play considerable time, but I still believe they played because their options were so limited and not because those picks were better. The second season will tell so much in an NFL career. It's make or break in many instances. Not all careers, but most.
McCargo is a huge question mark. He was beaten out by a 5th rounder for PT, so his play this season might indicate where he goes from here. If he's lackluster, well, the draft doesn't look as hot as what some make it out to be. If his injuries preclude him from playing, I'd say that they gambled with a 1st rounder and lost. At that point we can't call him a bust, but his play could change the fortunes of a defense that could not stop the run all season. We'll have to wait and see.
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And for the record, I don't think Marv is an idiot. Anyone with an Ivy League education, Phi Beta Kappa, and his track record in the NFL would never be confused for unintelligent. He's an excellent and educated man who stands for good character, work ethic, and furthering one's intelligence. You simply cannot argue about that.
However, we're talking football smarts here. There are a host of guys out there who understood how football works without Marv's sterling track record. Coaching and GM duties are significantly different, and with the salary cap almost world's apart that 1991. Marv's HOF coaching credentials don't necessarily translate into being a great GM. That's why I believe he inordinately relies on DJ, Modrak, Guy, and Overdorf.
It's true Marv led this team to 4 Super Bowls...but that was 15 years ago. Football has changed a lot since he left the league and while he relies on people who have been in the league for the last few years, he's behind people like Polian, Pioli, Newsome, and others who haven't had a break in service.
And if you're going to criticize me for not having proof about the 2006 draft because I don't have facts, I'll do the same when it involves talking about their decision making process behind doors at OBD. We simply don't know, both you and I.
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Yeah, right. That "rookie" GM, Marv got fooled by all of those really crafty and experienced GMs. If that wasn't so freaking laughably stupid, it would be offensive. You have absolutely NO information (but still believe) other teams faked Marv out and had no real interest in Whitner (even though Whitner confirms the interest). That's cool. Do you still believe the earth is flat? The sun goes around the earth?
I don't consider myself an apologist for ANYBODY. Bit, consider that:
In one year, Marv and his team have managed to almost completely turn around the base of a miserable 5-11 team in total disarray.
His first draft as GM was close-to GREAT (certainly an A- at worst).
In the past he lead the team to four straight SBs.
I don't know about you, but for now, I'm giving Marv the benefit of the doubt. I'm also not about to make baseless attacks (totally void of any real information) on his NFL intelligence.
Seriously...we've had this discussion before. Marv was a rookie GM last season. And he relied on the same guy (Modrak) who assisted your friend and pal Tommy Donahoe. The main difference was DJ was present. I'm sure the scouting department was similar in 06 as it was in 05.
Most people have no problem lampooning another team's picks after one season, but at the same time can term our guys to be excellent selections? Why the double standard, because as we all know, you can't judge a pick until they've completed three seasons in the leauge.
We can judge Jason Allen from MIA as a bust but rely on McCargo to be a difference maker at DT for Buffalo. Both have one year in the NFL under their belt, just that one plays for an arch-rival and another is our guy.
I find it laughable you can grade the draft after one season. I'm going to hold out until at least after this year. To grade our draft is certainly nieve and wreaks of homer-itis. I want those guys we selected last season to play as well as the next guy, but grading them after one season (or in the case of McCargo and Youboty about 4 games) is premature.
And by the way, the Earth isn't flat...Marv told me it's actually cylindrical. And the team certainly hasn't been turned around...we've got a long way to go before we're playoff worthy.
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Why are there so many Marv/DJ apologists out there?
Whitner's selection was a reach. And I still believe other NFL teams did an end run and faked Buffalo out on draft day. By feigning interest in Whitner, they got Buffalo to take a guy who wasn't going before 15.
We've said it time and time before...your team gets noticeably better with OL and DL as a strength. We chose a safety and JP was running for his life and our DLine couldn't stop Aunt Jemima from running through it.
Safeties may no longer be a dime a dozen...but priorities dictate you draft guys on the LOS first. Maybe Buffalo intends on having Whitner start at SLB this season. The fact remains, we paid more, literally and figuratively for a guy who wasn't a top-10 selection.
Besides, having a high draft pick isn't what it used to be. These guys are going to get a large paycheck without having played a down. 1st round picks are a gamble in many instances, and paying that sort of money to someone without NFL experience is not as ideal in 2007 like it was in 1987. They're a huge investment and the reason why I haven't noticed anyone trade into the top-10 in a while.
Broncos Game - Week 1
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I take it you weren't at the game...it was like being kicked in the you know where when Elam made that FG. Not to mention the atmosphere was terrible after the catastrophic injury to injury.