The Big Cat

Even I would call this generous, but I am curious, how many QB's would you take before Orton?

Well, I'm glad you cleared that up. And I'm astonished that you think Ken Wisenhunt et al are better coaches than Marrone and I seriously question how many non-Bills games are watched by the posters who think he's among the league's worst. So you think it coaches should be evaluated relative to their talent. Perfect. So do I. Where do you rank Kyle Orton among the 32 QB's that started games (or would have started but didn't because of byes) in week 12?

:-D shocking

Philbin, Gruden, Coughlin, Wisenhunt and Pettine, huh? Yeah, no. The question wasn't how many coaches can you name, if that's what you thought.

Yeah, didn't think so.

Please list the 24 coaches that are better than him...on his best day.

Sure. With this thorough, erudite analysis, you strike me as a guy who follows the entire league closely, How'd you like how Mike Smith handled the end of the Cleveland game just now? How's our talent compared to his? You watch Mike Caldwell get his **** stuffed in in Foxboro? How's our talent compared to his?

Yes, please.

32nd coach when we have record better than 12 other teams? Okay. Good stuff.

?? Link??

Detroit just picked off a pass in the red zone. So that's a thing.

With regards to Brown: he's our FOURTH STRING RUNNING BACK. He's hardly been handed the keys to the franchise. He's playing because our TOP TWO RUNNING backs (neither of whom were brought in by Whaley) are injured. But to answer your quesiton: the Levy/Brandon FO was truly something to marvel at. What Jauron managed to accomplish with the likes of John DiGorgio, Angelo Growell, Chris Kelsay, Ashton Youbboty and Ko Simpson STARTING on defense was nothing shy of remarkable. I argued as much in real-time, I can't believe folks won't come around on this now, even in hindsight. Those rosters were !@#$ING AWFUL. Another bone to toss your way, we've gambled two straight seasons on the most important position on the field: QB. When your contingency plans going into July are Kevin Kolb, Thad Lews and Jeff Tuel, you've conceded a low trajectory even before the very first snap. I don't mean to Buffalo Barbarian the offseason QB process, but since I'm the one who always challenges the wambulance drivers to say what the FO should have done rather then B word and moan about what we did do, I was hoping they would have made a play for Alex Smith. And in hindsight, that would have been the best AND the only viable transaction to at least bring stability to the position. Now, that said, the move to bring in Kyle Orton was the best available option and they had to do SOMETHING because of how horribly Thad and Tuel regressed and because of EJ's stunted growth. Those were three gambles that didn't pay off THIS YEAR alone, and in a last ditch heave, they brought in Orton. ****ty situation, but the definitely made the best of it.

Yeah, I can't believe he fumbled with a clear path to the endzone, took two horrible angles allowing both rushing TD's, then sailed that pass on would-be go-ahead TD at the end. Marrone had a terrible game that day. To the OP, I completely feel your sentiment. How many more kicks in the nuts can this franchise take? It'd be one thing to never catch a break. But to ALWAYS get shat on in the process. Jeebus. Enough already. EDIT: tehehe

Which 4th down decision against KC are you referring to? The attempt at the endzone when we could have taken the points??

You say we would have won if we had run it more. You're speculating this based on what they did previously. I'm telling you we would have scored a touch down if Orton hit open receivers. I know this because I saw it with my own two eyes. Understand the difference? One (your argument) assumes you know a better game plan exists. Not that one might exist. That definitively, they could have done more. And you're basing this on something that did not happen. The other (my argument) the game plan (read: coaching/play calling, or whatever it is people are bitching about) was good enough to win. I know this because a.) Bryce Brown had nobody between him and the endzone then fumbled and b.) On half of Orton's four throws into the endzone to end the game, receivers were wide open and he missed them. These are indisputable facts. And they both point to coaching decisions and play designs that were GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN THE GAME but failed because of player execution. I have not changed by argument.

The reason they won't answer the question: it was coaching/scheme/playcalling that had those receivers running wide open...against the pass defense they continually tout as league-best.

Good luck getting a reasonable response to that question.

You've basically distilled this argument to its most basic, chicken v egg level. Okay. I'll take your inability to offer a salient counter point as concession. Have a great and productive weekend. Enjoy the free Sunday. Some extra chores will let your wife know you love her! Yeah but still.

You must have missed all those games where fans were positively gleeful about how often we were running the ball this year.

That's my whole !@#$ing point!! When you agree that your QB falls somewhere in the 20-25 range, how can we be pissed if we also agree the coach, then falls somehwere in the 15-25 range!? Oh...I see. So players and NOT coaches win/lose games? Wow, that's like...the opposite...of what you two have been arguing.

Well, for one, we beat them, in their building. And also, did you watch the Arizona game? If conservative game plans are to be hated, then MY GOD...

The "on par" list is certainly debatable. I'm fine with that. Pagano, Caldwell and Lewis all have better QB's. Pagano is king turd in the worst or (at best) second-worst division in football. Caldwell makes Marrone look fast and loose. Lewis has managed to do the least with the most of just about any NFL coach.

We're talking about what's happening right now. In 2014. The 2014 Giants are currently 3-7. Shall I compare Marrone to the corpse of Vince Lombardi, too? For argument's sake? I honestly don't understand what that means.

Yeah, pretty much. At best, 15th. At worst, 22nd. Better than Marrone Bruce Arians John Harbaugh John Fox Mike McCarthy Andy Reid Bill Belichick Sean Payton[N 6] Rex Ryan Chip Kelly Mike Tomlin Mike McCoy Jim Harbaugh Pete Carroll Jeff Fisher Worse than Marrone Mike Smith Lovie Smith Ken Whisenhunt Jay Gruden Tony Sparano Joe Philbin Mike Zimmer Jim Caldwell Gus Bradley Marc Trestman On Par with Marrone Ron Rivera Mike Pettine Bill O'Brien Jason Garrett Marvin Lewis Chuck Pagano Tom Coughlin

Spiller got worse? Mmmmmm, that's highly debatable. Spiller did precisely in 2014 what all his critics (myself included) said he'd do. Then broke his collar bone. And...AGAIN...the "offense" has not regressed. The REDZONE offense has regressed. Period. THAT'S what we suck at.