WotAGuy
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Posts posted by WotAGuy
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1 minute ago, Virgil said:
I think they will have far less than 90% for what they consider to be the new club seats (lower level between the 40's), but will make up for it with endzone and upper deck renewals.
My biggest fear for this new stadium was that good seats were going to all become premium, and I think that's going to be the case.
From what little information I can gather, the least expensive seats in the upper levels are going to be covered. The uncovered seats are the fairly expensive lower bowl seats in the bottom half of those sections.
The people claiming they aren’t going to go from a present 100-level seat to a club seat in the new stadium may find the view and overhead coverage is pretty attractive for a cheaper seat up top.
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Mafia drops down from the ceiling and crashes through a flaming table….while eating a chicken wing.
“Howdy folks, and welcome to the Bills 7th round selection!”
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2 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:
I don’t know why any Bills fans are surprised about PSL’s as it’s the norms for new stadiums.
The Bucs did it way back in 1996 for Ray Jay when they demolished the old Sombrero. They weren’t alone. Bucs fans have to pay a lot of $ back then for psl’s.
When the Pegulas, and State fork out $1.5 billion, is this really a surprise. If anyone doesn’t like it, watch the game from your couch.
Reminds me of this South Park classic -
Just now, BarleyNY said:
The terms of the PSL transaction would seem simple enough to clarify. I’ll wait and see how it all plays out. And tens of thousands of fans should not all need lawyers for that.
I think I remember that @Mr Info mentioned a 20-some page agreement that he was having his lawyer review, but I may be mistaken.-
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24 minutes ago, PBF81 said:
I'm not deeply involved in this conversation, although I read up on it here, but from reading here and elsewhere like the BuffNews, Facebook, etc., it seems that the biggest issue among fans is that they want the pricing structure like a menu, to be able to see what they can afford and attempt to get the best seats for them that fit within that pricing structure, if at all.
The "problem" appears to be that the team is only going to release a level or two at a time down the chart. The problem that this presents is that people seem to be afraid that they're going to get pressured into seats/STs that may not be what they'd have chosen had they known all the options. That's reasonable.
It's one thing to only open up sales for certain sections. It's quite another to hide the pricing info from fans as they go through the process, and it's viewed as high-pressure sales, which of course it is. Who can or wants to pay for it has nothing to do with it, which will work itself out.
It's going to be quite interesting to see how this all shakes out once the more reasonably priced tix & PSLs start going on sale.
I could be entirely wrong, that's just my read for a large part of it.
I’ve been reading the same media you have and I think a lot of the problem is people fearing they will lose their seats, due to huge price increases and losing their specific spot they have been in for decades, often with close friends nearby. The latter part really is too bad, but it is the nature of having to reseat everyone in a different stadium.
I also think people are fearing the timeshare type pressure sales job they may get. These are all reasonable concerns in my opinion.
But I can see why the Bills are doing it the way they are with respect to limiting the options people have to buy seats during their presentation.
The current stadium has a lot, in fact is mostly, season ticket holders. The Bills can’t be offering a menu of different price levels while still maintaining an inventory for the rest of the season ticket holders. Many STHs have expressed concern they will lose their seats to people who turn down club seats for a lower-level option. The Bills are working it so that doesn’t happen.
Like so many things, people fear the unknown. They also fear someone having control over them. Both of these fears are at work presently.
People also feel their personal STH seniority should carry more weight than it appears it will in the PSL process. So that is creating some anger and angst too. We all believe we are more important than we really are. That creates a lot of the anger and anxiety from what I’m reading on Facebook in particular.
Patience and acceptance go a long way in these situations. Most people struggle with those qualities.
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1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:
The pricing will come out. My issue is with the specifics on how the PSLs work. There is a ton of misinformation out there now because it’s not being explained. I am sure that it will be put in the fine print in legalese at the last minute. The result will be that a lot of people will buy them without understanding what they bought. I lived in Cleveland when they got their last stadium and it is what happened there. I’ve watched for it in other cities since and it seems to be the playbook NFL teams use.
OK, I see what you are talking about and see what you mean. However, unless you have been through the process and bought a PSL from the Bills, aren’t you projecting a lot of negative assumptions on that process? There really is no basis for what you are supposing is going to happen, other than you know some people who didn’t do their due diligence when they bought PSLs from another team.
If you’ve ever bought a house, did you read and understand the mountain of paperwork you signed your name to a dozen or more times? I just bought a car and the papers I needed to sign were going by like a printing press. It was ridiculous. However, that’s the way a lot of high-value transactions are done, and it’s up to the consumer to know what they are getting into.
I don’t feel that these entities are trying to obfuscate the consumer; I think they are trying to protect themselves because they are selling thousands of their products, and of course they hold the advantage because they have something the consumers want.
If I’m spending thousands on a PSL and don’t understand the contract, I’m gonna spend a few hundred to have a lawyer vet it for me.
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1 hour ago, NoSaint said:
Will we see rice or diddy first?
Chances are we’ll see diddly. -
27 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:
The only real issue I have will this entire situation is the obfuscation by of important information. I have zero issue with capitalism - businesses setting prices for their goods and services and customers making decisions on whether or not to buy them. But it is not right when a business purposefully misleads its customers by withholding information about the transaction. And while caveat emptor certainly applies, it’s still very shady. And it seems to be standard operating procedure for the introduction of PSLs.
Can you identify what information is being withheld about the transaction?
I understand some customers are sharing information about the pricing they have been given. So that info is out there. Those are the only transactions that have taken place so far to my knowledge.
Now if you are referring to the PSL costs for other seating areas, the Bills have said those have not been determined yet, so there’s no information to withhold that I can see.
If the PSL cost for other areas will be lowered if they sell a lot of the high-end PSLs, as has been surmised, then everyone should be hoping they sell a lot of those MFers.
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25 minutes ago, Einstein said:
The Pegula’s even told PSE employees making likely $60k per year that they would be fired (to save money) before the Pegula’s would let their family life (vacations, etc) be hampered.
Is this your interpretation of some information you came across, or do you have a source for this? I mean, how can you run a business telling your employees something like that? -
17 minutes ago, Einstein said:
This is a function of the owner.
Some owners will pay for the stadium themselves AND not charge a PSL. See New England.
Well, it’s not surprising he gave away the farm - he was receiving a lot of manual stimulation that warped his thinking.-
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4 hours ago, lookylookyherecomescookie said:
If I valued the PSL at over $1.00, I would buy it. If I valued the PSL at less than $1.00, I wouldn't. You can substitute any $ amount you like into that sentence. So I guess I'm on neither team. Many factors can influence how I value something, but net worth is not one of them. Net worth certainly effects what I am able to buy, just not how I value something. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to describe someone else's world to you.
That’s a fresh perspective.
You should meet up with Einstein, I think you two would hit it off.
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1 minute ago, Einstein said:
If someone tells you that they are going to poke you in the eye of March 22nd at 4:32pm, i'm sure you will be upset.
Will you be any less upset when the eye poke happens, having known that it was comming?
Depends…..does this happen in a Taco Bell?-
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5 minutes ago, DieHardFan said:
Prefer to sell to Bills fans. My tickets are listed on TM AND in the dysfunctional Bills Tickets and Gear section without fees. They rarely sell on TBD but always sell.
You can try but you can't fix (or sell to) stupid.
I see your intelligence matches your image, you judgemental buffoon .
Happy Easter!2 minutes ago, Einstein said:They can, but most people won't want to, because humans are reluctant to abandon something they've already put resources into, even when doing so would be the rational decision based on current circumstances. It's then sunk cost fallacy.
"I just paid $40k for two PSL's in the club section five years ago. How could I possibly justify letting them go? I must suck it up and pay the ever-increasing season ticket prices, because if I don't, that $40k was a waste."
Yes, which is part of why it sucks so much. And it can be calculated 10 ways to Sunday and all the results would be a dismal picture.
Consider the time value of money, for one. Take a $20k PSL (club section pricing I've seen) as an example. What is the NPV? Well, NPV is a function of time and discount rate.
From what we have seen, $20,000 per PSL is what the Bills are asking for club seats.
And we know they have a 30 year lifespan, so let's look at the NPV for 5 years from purchase date.
Assuming only a 5% discount rate, we get a dismal future outlook
The NPV of a $20,000 PSL at 5 year onset is $5,906.67.
And this is only a discount rate at 5%. The opportunity cost of capital for any of us could be the average market return at the moment.
2023 was over 20%. You don't want to see the calculations at 20+% discount rate.
If they WIN a Super Bowl, it will spike for a year or two. Are you willing to sell your PSL in that time to realize the gain (or lack of loss)?
Or will you be so excited about the Championship that you decide to keep it?
Happy Easter Einstein!-
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34 minutes ago, DieHardFan said:
Not wondering, genius. Responding to @ProcessTruster re his concern that the stadium WILL be filled with resold tickets once PSLs are in effect.
Probably difficult to understand what a poster is saying when you diarrah post responses to every comment made.
Hey, if you’re not part of the solution you you’re part of the problem. You only sell to Bills fans? -
20 minutes ago, DieHardFan said:
Don't know where you are sitting but that's the CURRENT situation in many sections. Moved to S135 R5 two years ago. I have 4, typically sell 2 -3. Every game I stand and ask who in attendance is a STH sitting in their seat. Never got a response (could be no one wants to respond to a crazy but never see a familiar face).
So….you usually sell most of your tickets and are wondering why there aren’t many STH around you? Think about that for a minute and get back to us. 😝52 minutes ago, Einstein said:The Jets situation is exactly what people who purchase PSL’s right now are going to, unfortunately be in in a few years.
PSL’s that are worth approximately half of what they paid and ever increasing season ticket costs.
You see, once you buy (especially in the more expensive sections), they know they have you. They can double season ticket prices and you’ll be stuck. It’s a sunk cost and most people will not be willing to give up on their $5k-$10k PSL’s, so they will feel justified to pay the ever increasing season ticket rate.
There is definitely a sunk cost, but people can bail on them if need be.
But don’t PSLs also have diminishing returns? They have a fixed lifespan, so as the years go by, wouldn’t you expect the value to decrease as their usable life decreases?
Also, the fortunes of the team will probably play a big role in the market value of PSLs; if the team goes on a championship run, wouldn’t you expect the value to be affected positively by that?
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13 minutes ago, Einstein said:
I never said they were obligatory. You are falling into the same trap that Kirby did, moving the goalposts of the conversation.I simply stated that they are not common in other business. It’s a racket that is found nearly exclusively in sports (and timeshares).
It is a fee - considering a fee is just a payment made in return for something - never said it wasn’t.
But it’s not the same as a ticket fee.
- PSL fees go to the originator (who also benefit from the ticket price AND the taxpayer money).
- Ticket fees go to a third party (unaffiliated with the originator) and that is the only revenue they collect. They do not receive the ticket price or the taxpayer money.
Two completely and fundamentally different items.
For any similar comparison to be made they must contain all three components: Taxpayer funded, taxpayer double dipped (PSL), then taxpayer purchases for tickets.
They could. But that would remove a very large portion of the PSL money.
Why only single dip when you can double dip and get those taxpayers to pay for your stadium twice?
Well, duh. That was the entire point. Did that really go over your head?
Weak. You’re running on fumes Einstein. I expected better from you.
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Just now, Punching Bag said:
Taxpapers are not only ones buying PSLs. They have been selling some to partners including ticket agencies.
And as we have read from @Mr Info some PSL purchasers are not NYS residents and are not taxpayers.
Also, it’s not the most well-written or current article on the topic, but it is noteworthy that this construction project is benefitting the local job market and economy. Pegula isn’t the only one seeing benefits of the taxpayers’ “investment”.
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2 hours ago, Einstein said:
It’s not important for me at all.
I made a factual statement, Kirby wrongly classified my statement as false, I defended it.
Thats the entirety.
Businesses may attempt to gouge as much as they can in each sector, but the vast majority of businesses were not given over $800 million dollars by those same taxpayers they are gouging. That is rare. It has happened, but it’s the far outlier ran than the rule. I’ve said it before, but for any comparison to be valid, it must contain ALL three items.
1) Taxpayers paid for the business/product/venue to be created.
2) AND the business/product/venue then gouges those same taxpayers with a large fee before they can utilize or enjoy the business they just built for them.
3) AND they then charge the actual price/fee for what is consumed.
Fulfilling all 3 of those is rare for any business. It happens in sports, on a percentage basis, far more often than any other sector.
Thats not semantics. Its a fundamental difference.
How are the Bills gouging the taxpayers?
Taxpayers have no obligation or need to purchase a PSL. It’s a voluntary choice to pay for entertainment.The only taxpayers being offered the opportunity to purchase PSLs are apparently buying them up at a fairly high rate. And that’s just a very small percentage of the relatively few taxpayers that will have an opportunity to purchase a PSL. PSLs are only being offered to current customers. And the large percentage of those customers haven’t even been told what their PSL will cost, so how can it be “gouging”?
Why do you conflate “gouging the taxpayers” with the Bills offering existing customers to remain customers at a similar or better amenity level in an entirely new and improved venue? In fact, many of the Bills’ existing customers who will be offered PSLs aren’t even NYS taxpayers, being from Canada and other states.
With regard to your item 2 above, I think it shows growth and maturity on your part to concur that PSLs are a fee, just as Ticketmaster charges a fee. We are finding common ground.
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2 hours ago, Einstein said:
What deflection? I directly refuted what you wrote.
How is the reality different?
Do you mean your comments on how fans are only paying for 70% of the stadium instead of 100%? Or do you mean your comment on how some fans see PSL’s as an investment.
Your original Taco Bell example that started this whole discussion is not consistent with the reality of the Bills’ PSL and ticket process. Your example has a step that does not occur in the Bills’ situation. So you were wrong from the start, despite changing your wording now to make it sound like “that’s what I meant”.
Maybe if you posted a link to that article Yahoo written about you we could see where your “about faces” originate from. By the way, I also have had articles written about me; you’ll find them in the police blotter of some well-established, highly circulated newspapers. 😆
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11 minutes ago, Einstein said:
@BADOLBILZ, now THIS post above is semantics.
Correcting a (clearly figurative) depiction of the situation with minor or insignificant sentence changes. Writing things such as “a PSL will not get you through the door. Only a game ticket will get you through the door” … lol. I think everyone outside of WOT understand I was speaking figuratively when saying ‘through the door’.
Semantics vs fundamental difference.
The Ticket Fee comparison doesn’t work. I explained this before so i’ll just copy/paste.
PSL’s and Ticket Fees are completely different. There is a reason why Ticketmaster and Stubhub don’t label their ticket fees as PSL’s.
1) PSL’s originate from the organization producing the product (Buffalo Bills, for example). The originating organization receives all 3 parts of the equation (taxpayer money, PSL, and ticket cost).
Ticket fees originate from a completely separate entity (a third party) that uses stub fees as their business model and this model does not benefit the originating organization. They ONLY receive the fee, not the taxpayer money or the ticket cost.
2) Taxpayers did not subsidize the building of Ticketmaster and Stubhub. Therefore there is no “double taxation” so to speak.3) PSLs come with perceived value. Conversely, ticket service fees offer no such value proposition; they are akin to a delivery charge, which increases the cost of the product without enhancing its value.
They simply aren’t the same at all. Though they’re both crappy.
Nice deflection. You conveniently left out the part about your example not matching the reality of the Bills’ stadium/ticket/PSL scenario. Your Taco Bell example is just as full of holes, no matter how much you change it now. 🤣-
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On 3/28/2024 at 3:54 PM, Einstein said:
Tax break = / = paying for the stadium.
The taxpayers are literally PAYING for the stadium. Then they're being charged to enter the stadium. Then being charged to sit in the seat.
Your analogy isn’t consistent with the stadium situation:
1) Taxpayers are only paying a portion of the stadium and in return there will be county sales and state income taxes collected from the games/teams that play there. So there is some return on the “investment”. I believe this is one way that the state and county justify the “investment “ in the stadium.
2) Some consumers are choosing to pay a PSL that will be used to finance the rest of the construction cost as part of their “investment” in attending the games. And contrary to your analogy, a PSL will not get you through the door. Only a game ticket will get you through the door. The PSL and ticket cost are effectively one cost because you cannot own one without the other.
So your three-part example does not exist in the NFL or anywhere that I can think of. Basically taxpayers fund part of the venue construction for a financial return and your PSL/ticket combo get you in the door to watch the show.
This is very similar to the example I provided previously where the state and county paid to build the amphitheater in Syracuse and your ticket/Ticketmaster fee combo get you in the door to watch the show.
You keep dismissing everyone’s examples while reciting your example which does not reflect the reality of the stadium situation.
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4 minutes ago, Aimee75 said:
I am seeing a number of people saying that this could be an out for The Bills, that if the seats don't sell, there is probably a clause that could get them out of Buffalo. Thoughts on this?
It's exhausting constantly worrying about this.
Calling @Kirby Jackson-
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36 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:
Guaranteed those will be in the upper corners far away from the field.
But they will be under cover! It sounds like the seats not under cover will be the lower bowl, about halfway from top of that section down to field level. If it plays out the way the Bills have suggested, the cheapest seats will have cover.
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1 hour ago, Draconator said:
I checked permissions on a few random images I uploaded, and they all look correct.
Mine get stuck on #69 which is a guy in a Bills hat and Ed Wang jersey doing unspeakable things to a ketchup bottle.-
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PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
Tell him to relocate to the 300s so he can afford his new stadium seat location.