Royale with Cheese
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Posts posted by Royale with Cheese
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31 minutes ago, FireChans said:
I didn’t say that. This is weird gotcha. I’m out.
Very odd thing to lie about.
Remember "Saving receipts"?
You make it very clear Allen is the only reason for McDermott's success which is why you think Hackett and Gase would have also won 5 straight AFCE titles too.
So basically replace McDermott with the above and results would be the same.
And you're denying it.
21 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:The fact that you're bringing up what Hackett and Gase did as OC's and not what they did as HC's.
Don't beat around the bush....would the Bills have won 5 straight division titles with Adam Gase or Nathaniel Hackett with the same roster as McDermott?
21 hours ago, FireChans said:Yes. They would.
We have seen what Adam and Nat Hackett were able to do with elite QBs. Oversee elite offenses and MVP seasons. That wins you lots of division titles, especially with the other crappy QBs in the conference.
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29 minutes ago, FireChans said:
You said over the last 5 years, so since 2020. Yeah, I think Allen is that good.
I never said they could have turned around the drought era Bills.
lol so I should just lie to myself and say I believe in McD.
It’s a take. I could be wrong. I hope I am. But it’s what I think. I think you will be wrong. And I think the shift to “McD is a good coach, let’s just stay to course” to “fire this guy already holy crap” is coming.
You doubled down on the Adam Gase thing lol. Wow.
Here's something to think about.
Adam Gase had Ryan Tannehill in Miami. Adam Gase was fired because the Dolphins were going backwards.
Tannehill who was considered done after his stint with Gase, was traded to the Titans for a 6th round pick.
Tannehill under Vrabel, won Offensive Comeback Player of the Year Award, won the division multiple times, signed a big contract extension etc....after he got away from Gase.
Lets take a look at Sam Darnold. His first year under Bowles, showed promise. The great Adam Gase took over and got Sam Darnold by year two.
The Jets drop to 31st in scoring lol.
Year 2 under Gase. Jets go 2-14 but improve to 26th in scoring lol. Gase was fired.
Darnold was in the MVP race last year and signed and signed a $100 million dollar contract with Seattle lol. Darnold's first two coaches were Gase and Matt Rhule. Gee...wonder why he struggled.
But yes, Adam Gases regime would have developed Allen as well as McDermott's regime. Wow.
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17 hours ago, MJS said:
And there will be plenty of receipts if the Bills win a superbowl with McDermott, too.
If there is a receipt that needs to be saved, its the Adam Gase and Nate Hackett would be as successful as McDermott in Buffalo.
That's gold Jerry....gold!
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18 hours ago, FireChans said:
What do you mean? These are my takes.
QBs matter way more than coaches. We have maybe the best QB in football, thus we are are a very good team.
If we fired McD and replaced him with an average coach, I think its very likely nothing gets worse from where we are now, a team that is very good, in large part because we have a great QB.
Sometimes, coaching changes can elevate a very good team into a Super Bowl team.
These are all very congruent takes if you stop to think for a second.
I don't know if you are aware, but divisions titles are based on overall wins....of the teams in the division.
Ergo, you can win 8 games and win the division as long as the rest of the division wins no more than 7.
Seeing as the Jets have a .290 winning percentage since 2020, the Pats have a .390 winning percentage and the Dolphins have a .559, no I'm really not shocked that averaging double digit wins with an elite QB (like I said, bare minimum coaching expectation) when the second best team in your division can barely manage .500 over that span is enough to win the division.
FWIW, I wasn't super impressed when Brady and BB lorded over their division for 20 years or when Mahomes and co. do it now. In a league where there's barely 12-15 QBs worth a damn, and even 8-10 of those are a tier below those top 3 or 4 guys, when you have those top 3 or 4 guys, you are expected to win your division. Half the teams in your division will statistically not even have a franchise QB, and if you have an elite QB, the odds of another one being in your division is very small.
Geezus dude.
You say coaching doesn’t matter which is why you have Adam Gase being as successful as McDermott…its only the QB that matters.But then state the 2015 Broncos lost their QB and if they had Del Rio/Fox would have been coaching, they would have won 8 games. So obviously that means you think Kubiak was the difference. But you want to be so right that you won’t say coaching was the difference, the “stars aligned.” Even after you clearly state Del Rio/Fox wouldn’t have done as good a job.
Augie is right, its a pointless exercise to continue this.
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17 hours ago, FireChans said:
I think McDermott's actually a good coach. I don't think he's a disaster. I think he'd be a great hire for a team like Carolina if he did ever get fired.
I just don't think he's a difference-maker.
And at this point, I am just saving receipts in case the unthinkable happens and we win a Super Bowl immediately with a new HC in 2026. I have spent enough time in this thread that I should be able to find it immediately.
“Saving receipts” lolWhy?
You say you want to be wrong or fingers crossed that McDermott wins it…but at the same time saving receipts. The “I told you so” desire is incredibly strong here. Its that important to you.
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16 hours ago, DrBob806 said:
I'm done with homework assignments.
Just pointing out the hypocrisy.
I don’t think there’s hypocrisy here which is why I brought up levels. -
4 minutes ago, DrBob806 said:
Sexual assault isn't comparable? Ok
You know there are levels right?
Mike Tyson sexually assaulted a woman. So what Mike Tyson did and what allegedly Hairston is accused of doing....they're the same right?
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5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:
why wasn’t he charged?I asked a friend this question who is a Cop. He said its because it's incredibly hard to charge someone of sexual assault when there isn't penetration or specific bodily fluids on the accuser. Its word against word.
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1 minute ago, FireChans said:
They lost their franchise QBs and didn't find another one and revealed
Because the stars aligned for the Broncos defense to be an all-time elite unit. They had multiple future HoFers and a very talented group that was underperforming relatively and a coaching change was imo key to unlocking that.
They lost their franchise QB and now they are completely out of the NFL. Makes sense.
So coaching matters then huh? It's so funny how you're arguing coaching does and doesn't matter lol. This is hilarious.
9 minutes ago, Augie said:So, your plan is to find a coach who got fired for failing. Got it. Brady may or may not be over his skis as OC, so let’s make him the HC.
You are making me feel better about my current position.
Its comical at this point.
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1 minute ago, DrBob806 said:
Exactly. Lots of stones thrown around here at KC, CLE. But now since it's a Bills player, there's nothing to see.
If Hairston comes down with 20+ charges of sexual assault, then I will throw stones.
These situations aren't comparable.
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5 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Yeah, sorry. There's at least 10 coaches in the NFL right now that I think are able to clown Mac Jones and old broken Cam Newton and Zach Wilson and Mike White and Skylar Thompson and Bailey Zappe with Josh Allen at QB for 5 straight seasons. It's really just not that impressive.
My old take is that if you have to debate if a player is good all the time, they probably aren't. We used to debate Tyrod and Fitzy all day every day. The moral of the story was that they weren't good. We don't debate Josh Allen, because there is no reason to. We debate McD every day. I'm leaning toward he's in the Tyrod Taylor tier of HCs.
I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but the Bills have played a 1st place schedule the last 5 seasons.
Division wins aren't the overall factor when it comes to division titles....it's overall wins.
You keep bringing up Jones, Newton, Wilson etc....
We do face a lot of franchise QB's every season. In fact, McDermott has faced Mahomes in the regular season more than he's faced all the above QB's.
Winning 5 straight division titles isn't hard. Sean Payton couldn't do it with Brees, Dungy couldn't do it with Manning, Bill Walsh didn't do it with Montana.....
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5 minutes ago, FireChans said:
The 2015 Broncos lost their elite QB midseason.
When you have an elite, franchise QB, the floor is set regardless of the coach. At a minimum, the expectation is double digit wins and playoffs. It doesn't matter if you have Mike McCarthy or Sean McDermott or John Haurbaugh etc etc.
If the Bills fired McDermott tomorrow and hired Joe Blow from University of Arkansas, my expectations would not change for the 2025 season. If Josh was lost for the season, my expectations WOULD change.
I know the 2015 Broncos lost their QB.
So they won the Super Bowl without a franchise level QB. You stated that if Fox or Del Rio would have gotten them to 8 wins.
Why?
3 minutes ago, uticaclub said:Most likely.
Then why aren't they HC's in the NFL?
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3 minutes ago, FireChans said:
See here's the rub. You think beating the Zach Wilson's and the Mac Jones' and the Ryan Fitzpatrick's to win the AFCE is some Herculean task with an elite, MVP caliber QB. It ain't.
Mike McCarthy was Green Bay's HC from 2009 to 2017 and had double digit wins every season except for the seasons Rodgers got hurt.
For what it's worth, I think McDermott could've done that too. Because it's not that hard.
Ain't that hard?
Then why is there only a handful of coaches who won 5 or more consecutive division titles?
Here they are....Andy Reid, Bill Belicheck, Vince Lombardi and Sean McDermott. Soooooooo easy.
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9 minutes ago, FireChans said:
I cannot disagree more.
Their defense got a MASSIVE upgrade going from Del Rio to Phillips. Their defensive DVOA was like the best by a SB winner in a decade (slightly better than the 13 Seahawks even) despite being middle of the road the year previous. They were first in yards and points per drive, after being 13th in points per drive the year previous.
The offense took a significant step back because Peyton lost his arm seemingly overnight but that wasn't schematic.
In 2014, they allowed 24 points to a flawed Indy team that eventually got stomped in the AFCCG, 4 points less than their season average.
In 2015, the Broncos defense was holding teams to 10-20 points below their season averages, despite their offense being completely anemic. They didn't have over 200 yards passing or 100 yards rushing more than ONCE in the entire postseason.
If they kept Fox and Del Rio, they win 8ish games and then everyone is fired and Peyton retires very sad.
So it does matter who is the coach then huh?
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3 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Yes. They would.
We have seen what Adam and Nat Hackett were able to do with elite QBs. Oversee elite offenses and MVP seasons. That wins you lots of division titles, especially with the other crappy QBs in the conference.
I am only replying to this so everyone can see this post. Adam Gase and Nate Hackett would be as successful as McDermott.
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1 minute ago, FireChans said:
Huh? I'm kinda confused.
What do you mean none of that matters/now it matters?
The fact that you're bringing up what Hackett and Gase did as OC's and not what they did as HC's.
Don't beat around the bush....would the Bills have won 5 straight division titles with Adam Gase or Nathaniel Hackett with the same roster as McDermott?
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11 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Oh I think BB would probably have multiple Superbowls with Mahomes. Probably multiple division titles too.
the "still be employed" part was just the floor of my thoughts. He definitely would not have been fired. In that universe, McDermott is probably already gone in Buffalo and Josh is probably closer to Justin Herbert in terms of career accomplishments with a clearly superior HC coaching circles around them in the division.
Adam Gase got a head coaching job because when he was OC of Peyton Manning, their offense was sick and Denver was winning 12 or 13 games a season.
Nate Hackett got a head coaching job because when he was OC of Aaron Rodgers, their offense was sick and Green Bay was winning 13 games a season (Rodgers won 2 MVP with 'ol Hackett at OC).
Those examples prove my point. Lesser coaches with inflated accomplishments.....because they had elite QBs.
Well this may be an unfair question because its so long after the fact, but did you think John Fox "deserved" to be fired in Denver after 2014?
None of that matters because you said it doesn't matter when you have Josh.
Now it matters lol.
2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:Again this "what would McDermott be with QBX" or "what would Allen by with HCY" are hypotheticals. It also depends heavily who are you replacing them with. Is it McDermott with a 5th-12th type QB? Or a 13th to 20th type QB? Or a bridge at best guy? Is the mythical head coach replacement for McDermott a proven NFL HC? Is it a hotshot coordinator or is it a guy who you seriously consider the basic competence of - see Hackett etc.
I just don't know that it is a very fruitful line of argument. Quarterback matters more than Head Coach. We all know and accept that as a truism of the NFL and the Bills will always have a chance to be good with Josh Allen. But the Saints had four losing seasons in five years during the peak of a future first ballot HoF QB and a likely future HoF HC. The NFL is just way to complex and way to nuanced to ever boil down to 1+1 always = 2.
Understand that I'm not using these as legit arguments. I'm simply copying FireChan's arguments to show him how ridiculous the points he's making.
I understand context....
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3 minutes ago, FireChans said:
That's what happened.
Brady left in 2020 and BB was fired after the 2023 season.
I don't know if there's any reason to deny reality?
If BB had traded for Mahomes in 2020, I think he'd still be employed in NE. (McD's 2 AFC finalist banners would be in SERIOUS jeopardy though).
The whole point where I was going is that McD isn't the reason we are competing for Superbowls currently. Josh Allen is.
So based on that belief, I don't think if we fired McD, we would stop competing for Superbowls. Because it's not about McD. It's about Josh Allen.
The reason I say that is because the common counter-point to firing McD is that "what if the next coach is worse." My argument is that we have Josh Allen. My argument is that it doesn't matter.
So let me get this straight lol.
Belicheck is the GOAT, but if he had Mahomes, he would just still be employed?
Reid has Mahomes now, has won 3 Super Bowls with him....why are you assuming that Belicheck can't win a Super Bowl with Mahomes? You "think" he would still be employed. Not a very strong argument for the GOAT HC huh? Not completely sure if he's good enough to keep the job with another elite QB.
Why are you assuming that coaches like Nate Hackett and Adam Gase would have the same winning percentage as McDermott?
You did say, "We have Josh Allen, it doesn't matter."
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7 minutes ago, FireChans said:
You could have just agreed lol. I even said the point was to find common ground.
I think that BB would have an excellent winning record with a Patrick Mahomes or Joe Montana at QB. Probably not as good as with Brady because he is the better QB imo. What is the point you are trying to make?
See how easy it is to answer a question and advance the conversation without having a defensive meltdown? (No McDermott pun intended)
You clearly stated below that WITHOUT the GOAT QB, the GOAT HC would be fired in 3 seasons.
So since we agree Tom Brady is the GOAT QB and with your statement an hour ago....Mahomes and Montana would have gotten Belicheck fired in 3 seasons.
Thank you for simplifying it, you made it where you can't deny it lol.
1 hour ago, FireChans said:I’m assuming you think that BB is also a level above McDermott, no?
My question is simply this. If someone considered the greatest coach of all time was largely mediocre and saw his SB window slammed shut after losing his franchise QB, who immediately opened another franchises SB window, why do you assume that would not be the case in Buffalo with a head coaching switch?
For simplification, we all agree:
Greatest HC of all time + greatest QB of all time = dynasty
Greatest HC of all time - greatest QB of all time = mediocre, fired in 3 seasons
Do you believe that McD without Josh would do better than Bill without Brady?
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3 minutes ago, FireChans said:
holy smokes bro.
Asking you questions is not assuming you "eluded" to something.
"do you think that fire truck is red?"
"I NEVER EVEN ALLUDED TO THINKING THAT FIRETRUCK WAS RED."
I give up.
You probably should give up.
Asking specific questions, in this case, asking why I think McDermott would have a .600% winning percentage without Allen is eluding to something. I never once never gave indication that McDermott would be as successful without Allen.
Okay, I will ask questions then since it's not assuming or eluding to something.
Why do you FireChans, believe that the GOAT Coach would have a .300 winning % without the GOAT QB? Why would he have a .300% winning percentage if he had the Second best QB of all time?
I'm not eluding to anything. I'm just asking a question.And great example of using an objective topic for a subjective topic.
A firetruck is red because it's red. You don't have to elude to it. It's a fact which makes it objective.
How good a coach will be or would be without an elite QB is subjective.
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My Tacoma is factory tinted.
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2 minutes ago, FireChans said:
It's not me trying to be black and white, it's just a question to establish common ground.
First of all, McDermott's record without Allen is actually 10-11. Which is .477.
But the point is, do you think McD is as good or better of a coach than BB?
I don't. I don't even think he's close. I think BB is the greatest coach of all time. I think his mastery of the defensive side of the ball, and his ability to be tactically nuanced (see 2019 SB, among others), as well as strategically (transitioning from a vertical offense to twin TE sets to an offense featuring the slot to a power running team over a 12 year span based on his personnel) is all-time.
Now if you don't think BB is the greatest coach ever and you think McDermott could be, that's fine. I disagree.
If you think BB is the greatest coach ever and you don't think McDermott is, then I would ask if a MUCH BETTER coach has a basically mediocre record without his incredible QB, why do you think a MUCH WORSE (relatively) coach wouldn't? What does McDermott do to make you think he's a .600+ coach without Josh?
Your answer can be "I don't know because we don't know." That's fine.
My answer is "McDermott is probably not better than the greatest HC of all time and thus would also probably have a mediocre W/L or worse without his franchise QB."
And the reason I make this diversion is because the point I am trying to prove is that "the head coach doesn't matter as much as the QB." It never has. It hasn't with the greatest coach ever, which you agreed with. Brady was the engine for excellence in NE. The second he left, it dried up. When he went to the Bucs, BAM, they are back in the playoffs every year competing for Super Bowls.
Peyton missed a season in Indy and they went from a double digit win team to picking first overall. When he went to Denver, they went from a fringe WC team at .500 to winning the division every season.
I'm not sure you can find a top 3ish QB whose HC got fired and the franchise crumbled. To my knowledge, its never happened, at least in the modern era.
There are lots of examples of teams knocking on the door of contending for Super Bowls who fired their HC or coordinators and that got them over the hump.
You go to extremes with everything lol.
I never said McDermott would be a .600 winning percentage without Josh. Never even eluded to it.
I never said that I think McDermott could be the greatest of all time. Never even eluded to it.
I also think McDermott would be a mediocre coach without a franchise QB. I think that applies to every head coach. Belicheck is a below average coach without Brady and his record states that. Do you think you're bringing up a unique point or something? Its obvious that the QB is like the Queen on a chess board...it's the most important piece. I don't understand what you're really arguing now because you're adding in assumptions I never made.
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3 minutes ago, FireChans said:
I’m assuming you think that BB is also a level above McDermott, no?
My question is simply this. If someone considered the greatest coach of all time was largely mediocre and saw his SB window slammed shut after losing his franchise QB, who immediately opened another franchises SB window, why do you assume that would not be the case in Buffalo with a head coaching switch?
For simplification, we all agree:
Greatest HC of all time + greatest QB of all time = dynasty
Greatest HC of all time - greatest QB of all time = mediocre, fired in 3 seasons
Do you believe that McD without Josh would do better than Bill without Brady?
No I don't agree with this lol.
You are so black and white that it's hard to have a real discussion with you.
What if the GOAT coach had the 3rd best QB of all time? Does that still equal fired in 3 seasons?
Well there isn't enough data on McDermott's end, since he only has one season without Allen and he went 9-7.
Belicheck is 83-104 WITHOUT Brady.....449% winning percentage. He has a .769% winning percentage WITH BRADY.
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2 minutes ago, Augie said:
I don’t know what he’s saying, but I’m saying QB Brady > Old Man Belichick.
100%.
McDermott not in Top 10 of NFL coaches per PFF.
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
You have not been consistent. I'm not the only one reacting negatively to your posts.
You have argued out of both sides of your mouth lol.