Logic
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Posts posted by Logic
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Respectfully, a transition/retool/rebuild year seems like the PERFECT time to add a few rookie WRs. It's historically a position that takes a year or two to get up to speed. So why not draft more than ONE wide receiver when you have a screaming need at the position, 11 draft picks, and a deep WR draft class? Let them get their feet wet in this "transition year" and from 2025 onward, we're off and running.
I don't see why having a transition year and meaningfully addressing your biggest roster hole with more than one player should have to be mutually exclusive.-
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19 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:
*****in' A Bubba, you nailed it. Another year of defense and only two skill players on offense. We're supposed to believe that in the deepest WR draft in years, the Bills didn't have any other WRs worth drafting?
Yeah. You said it well, and @FireChans said it well.
The Bills came into the draft with a SCREAMING need at WR and 11 draft picks at their disposal in a very deep WR draft.
They picked just one WR. Exiting draft weekend, WR is STILL their biggest roster need.
It really, REALLY doesn't make any sense to me.
No one can convince me that packaging some of those late picks (heck, they had so many that they didn't even want to use them all, and traded one away for a 2025 pick) to move up higher in the 4th and grab one of Franklin, Baker, or Walker wouldn't have been a great move. Or even using our last 5th on Malik Washington.
Huge need, surplus of picks, deep WR draft......and yet you get ONE guy. And that one guy is 20 years old and will likely take a couple years to fill out and learn what he needs to know to be a good pro, to boot.
We are one Curtis Samuel injury or slow developing summer from Coleman away from having to depend on Mack Hollins or Justin Shorter to play major offensive minutes. It's roster malpractice.
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33 minutes ago, FireChans said:
To @Logic’s point.
what is the biggest need on the Bills roster today?
WR.
what was it 3 days ago?
WR.
That’s unacceptable.
Well said, and in way less words than I said it (brevity has never been my strong suit).
Thank you! -
12 minutes ago, TH3 said:
Whatever dude
Well stated. -
3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:
I don’t have access to a tiny fraction of the data Beane does. I run IVF labs. It would be like having folks here tell me I’m wrong about what embryo to transfer when they haven’t even had high school biology.
Yeah I mean..it's a game. It's supposed to be for fun. I was not seriously suggesting that anyone here would be a better GM than Brandon Beane. It's more of a "how would your draft class of choice stack up against the pros" kind of thing.-
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11 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
IT'S A TRICK!
It's true, but meaningless; what big-bodied WR catch meister WR has Allen had the opportunity to form a connection with? The only one I can think of is 2018 Fat Kelvin, who, as I noted above, was RIP at the time with the only pass he was interested in being preceded by "puff, puff,..." He had the lowest catch rate in the league at the point where we released him, commentators had been noting his lack of effort on the field for weeks, and neither the Mahomes-led Chiefs nor the Giants
@Logic, you started this out by stating "Josh Allen has historically thrived with fast, shifty WRs who separate well, and has not clicked with big-bodied guys who struggle with separation." When, other than rookie year with Fat Kelvin, in Josh's 6 years in the league, has he played with "big bodied WR", whether they struggle with separation or not?
Yes, I grant that he hasn't had many to work with.
The one that he most recently HAS had to work with was Gabe Davis. Davis's limited route variety, stiffness, and lack of separation ability all led to his being thrown to less and less, until by the end of last year he was barely a meaningful part of the passing game at all.
My contention is that if we KNOW Josh does well with the fast, shifty guys, and we know that he has not historically demonstrated the same success with bigger guys -- albeit in a smaller sample size, and albeit with a less impressive group of players overall -- then why take on this experiment and this change in philosophy now?
After we just saw his connection with big, limited, non-separating Gabe Davis deteriorate to the point of non-existence, why go back to the well of that type of WR? -
22 minutes ago, Warcodered said:
True or false the most talented WRs he's had have been: "smaller bodied (relatively speaking) WRs whose strengths are route running and separation."
True. Do you grant that my statement is also true?
If so, the sum total of those two true statements would seem to be "The Bills should continue to draft smaller bodied WRs whose strengths are route running and separation. -
I'd like to start a new tradition here on Two Bills Drive.
The premise is simple. I want everyone who's interested in testing their drafting acumen against Brandon Beane's to list who theywould have chosen at each spot, based on who was available in real life, compared to who the Bills actually chose.
I'll list where the Bills picked, who they picked in real life, and then who I would have picked. And I'd like each person who wants to participate to do the same. You can copy and paste the Bills picks and then post your own chosen player next to it (using the link below and picking only players who were available at that pick), unless you'd rather stick with who the Bills picked.
The only rule is that you have to pick where the Bills actually picked. You can't undo a trade-down they made, and you can't invent a new trade-down or trade-up. You have to stick with the real draft slots that the Bills picked from.
We can check back on this in future years and compare our own preferences to who Beane picked. A chance for each of us to put our money where our mouth is.
Here's the listing of everyone picked in the 2024 NFL draft and where, for easy reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_NFL_draft
I'll start:
Bills 2024 draft class:
Pick 33: WR Keon Coleman, Florida StatePick 60: S Cole Bishop, Utah
Pick 95: DT DeWayne Carter, Duke
Pick 128: RB Ray Davis, Kentucky
Pick 141: C/G Sedrick Van Pran-Granger, Georgia
Pick 160: LB Edefuan Ulofoshio, Washington
Pick 168: DE Javon Solomon, Troy
Pick 204: T Tylan Grable, UCF
Pick 219: CB Daequan Hardy, Penn State
Pick 221: G Travis Clayton, International Player Pathway
Who I would've picked instead:
Pick 33: WR Ladd McConkey, Georgia
Pick 60: S Cole Bishop, Utah (same as Bills)
Pick 95: WR Troy Franklin, Oregon
Pick 128: CB TJ Tampa, Iowa State
Pick 141: C/G Sedrick Van Pran-Granger, Georgia (same as Bills)
Pick 160: RB Tyron Tracy Jr, Purdue
Pick 168: DE Javon Soloman, Troy (same as Bills)
Pick 204: OG Christian Mahogany, Boston College
Pick 219: WR Brendan Rice, USC
Pick 221: CB MJ Devonshire, Pitt
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3 minutes ago, Warcodered said:
Kelvin "I don't want to warm up with you rookie QB" Benjamin? Andre Holmes....really? Robert Foster UFDFA, John Brown 5'10, Lil Dirty have you seen the mannequin, Sanders 5'11 and like 33/34 years old.
How were any these guys high talent big bodied WRs? Hell the closest one was Robert Foster because he was 6'2 but he was an UDFA that's never caught on anywhere, though the highlight of his entire career was catching passes from Josh ***** Allen.
I'm surprised you didn't bring up Bills legend Duke Williams he'd at least be the right type of WR if still a guy brought in from the CFL.
True or false: The most successful connections Josh Allen has forged in his NFL career have come with smaller bodied (relatively speaking) WRs whose strengths are route running and separation.
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No. They did not do enough. They COULD have added enough, and rather easily:
Xavier Worthy in the 1st and trading up for Javon Baker in the 4th. We would've added speed/explosion with Worthy and a true X in Baker. Trade up again for Jaylen Wright (I don't want to hear that they couldn't have gotten that done. Some teams traded future 3rds to get back into the 4th), instead of drafting Ray Davis.
Or, alternately...
Still take Keon Coleman in the 1st (if he was Josh's guy and they just HAD to have him) and then trade up for Troy Franklin or Tez Walker in the 4th and again for Will Shipley at RB.
Either of the above would've added more quantity, more variety, and more explosiveness to the Bills' offense. Either one would've added a more legitimate group of weaponry than what the Bills did.
Sure, we would've missed out on a depth DT and a special teams linebacker and maybe one of our two late round developmental tackles. But that's just it: Sacrificing a bit of defensive depth or special teams prowess in the name of improving the offense. Unfortunately, that's not a trade-off this staff appears willing to make.-
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2 minutes ago, appoo said:
Literally Keon Coleman
I think Keon Coleman has some real strengths to his game, but "explosive" is not a word I'd use to describe him.
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Just now, Dr. Who said:
Yeah, it's not encouraging. I don't know who can be added. I'm sure they'll bring in a veteran. Someone will shake loose after the draft.
A post June 1st trade for Courtland Sutton -- who has a manageable cap number the next two years and who could be a valuable mentor for 20 year old Coleman, who has a very similar game to Sutton's -- would be a realistic and appealing goal, in my opinion.-
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1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:
I've been told it's impossible, I guess because of the cap, but I am still going to hold out hope there is a way to bring in Aiyuk. He's exactly what we need.
Brandon Beane, speaking at his post draft presser just now, said "The cap is the cap. There is not a receiver trade coming". He said it point blank. So...I think at this point a free agency addition is far more likely.-
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1 minute ago, bills6969 said:
There are ppl on this forum that live in La La land that thought trading into the top 10 to draft Nabers or Odunze was a realistic possibility and b/c we didn’t do that this draft was a fail. Coleman is fine piece to add. I think the receiver corps is good. Coleman, Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid and Knox- it’s a well rounded group. Likely will get some depth contribution from Hollins, Hamler, Shorter.
Coleman, Shakir, Samuel is about as deep as this WR corps goes. And that's assuming Coleman winds up being a good pro. Hollins a replacement level guy. Shorter has shown nothing on offense in this league.
Yes, we can HOPE that Shorter or Hamler or Shavers develop into viable players, but hope is not a strategy.
So that's three guys. That's a three-deep WR corps. That is....not very encouraging.-
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2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:
You're basically not high on Coleman, and we didn't double dip at WR.
Based on experience and some of these prospects being older/ready to contribute immediately (maybe a bit lower ceiling):
Immediate starters:
Coleman, Bishop
Sizeable % of snaps/key rotational role:
Carter, Davis, Hardy (returner)
Potential to be a future starter:
SVPG (maybe even this year)
Key backup/ST role:
Ulof (immediate core ST player), Solomon (key S/T and potential to be a impact pass rush specialist this year)
Grable is a solid developmental project, if we can hold onto him.
We needed to do a mini rebuild across the roster, replace leadership as you said. I think we have a strong culture already in place but this class enhances that.
Honestly, this draft class comes down mostly to Coleman and Bishops impact. And if we added some DL pressure. Davis will be a solid RB2 no doubt.
I'm concerned about a 2nd outside WR too, but Beane either views a FA target post June 1 OR has enough faith in Shorter. My guess is we grab a vet WR in FA.
Asking to go "GB" with multiple guys.... thing is we already have a few: Kincaid, Samuel, Shakir, Cook. We need a depth outside/boundary WR (vet FA noted above) and we are counting on:
700-800+ yard season: Coleman, Kincaid, Samuel, and Shakir
400-600 yards (in aggregate): Cook (mostly him), Davis and Johnson
400-600 yards: Knox, WR4, WR5
WR4/5: as of now, Hollins and Shorter. That's not going to cut it. But if we add a vet FA then I think we have at least a feasible plan in place.
Let's be patient and see how Beane addresses WR4. He wasn't afraid to make moves after draft LY (Floyd, Murray, Ford).
Great response. Thank you for this.
Yeah, I'll admit: I'd feel a lot better about things if the Bills added just one more legitimate dude to the receiving corps, even via free agency.
They're one Samuel injury or one slow Coleman developmental Summer away from Mack Hollins or Justin Shorter being counted on for serious offensive snaps, and that is not acceptable to me.
I'm not even sure who at this point in the offseason would be a viable addition to that room -- OBJ? Chark? MVS? -- but I have my fingers crossed for SOMEBODY.-
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Just now, No_Matter_What said:
This is such a confusing statement to me.
Which player drafted 28 and later would make you stand up and say that?
Trading up for one of the big three WRs -- which Beane said he didn't try to do -- would've done it.
Failing that, as I said, collecting quantity instead of quality might've accomplished that. Giving greater priority to surrounding Allen with multiple skillsets at wide receiver.
When I look at the Bills' WR corps as it stands right now, it's hard not to feel like it's one of the least inspiring groups in the league.-
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1 minute ago, Warcodered said:
I'd love to know who the high talent big body guys they've put on this team with Josh Allen we have to make this assessment that he doesn't do well with them. From my memory Josh Allen does well with short shifty WRs because Josh Allen has short shifty WRs.
Kelvin Benjamin and Andre Holmes gave way to Robert Foster, Isaiah McKenzie, John Brown, Emmanuel Sanders, et al.
Even Gabe Davis's effectiveness gradually waned the longer he was here. His limited route tree, stiffness, and inability to get consistent separation led to Josh rarely throwing it to him over the back half of last season.
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Just now, MJS said:
Nobody knows anything. Stop pretending. Just hope for the best.
If post-draft discussion and speculation aren't encouraged, then we might as well close up this message board.
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2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:
This is a fair take but moderate imo
I think it would be fair to say this draft+offseason gets us further from a super bowl
And for that imo it's a failure
Right now, I agree with you. I think the Bills are further from Super Bowl contention right now than they were at season's end. Some of that was bound to happen due to salary cap implications and aging players that left, but...I can't help but agree. You either step forward, backward, or stand pat in a given offseason. At BEST, I feel the Bills stood pat, but I think it's more likely that they took a step back.-
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I'll start by saying that this was far from my favorite Bills draft.
I'm usually Mr Optimistic when it comes to draft classes, but I thought this year's class was just...fine. It was like if you fed Brandon Beane's draft tendencies and the Bills' needs into ChatGPT and asked it to spit out the 2024 Bills draft class. It was completely on brand, it filled the needs we all knew the team had, and it'll probably end up producing a few average players and a couple good ones.
Ho-hum. Nobody in this class makes me stand up and say "that guy's really gonna help the Bills get over the hump and win a title".
Onto the picks:
1. Keon Coleman - I was not a fan of this pick. For a team whose WR corps needed more speed and separation, this guy made the LEAST sense to me of all the 1st/2nd round WR prospects. Josh Allen has historically thrived with fast, shifty WRs who separate well, and has not clicked with big-bodied guys who struggle with separation. So adding Keon Coleman? It feels like "Square peg, meet round hole". He does have great athleticism and RAC ability for a man his size. He's also young to the position, having played football full time for only two seasons and being only 20 years old. I have concerns about his ability to play X in the NFL, and I'll believe that he's a better fit as a big slot until proven otherwise. Here's hoping I'm wrong about Coleman. The absolute ceiling I see for him is "Solid WR2". Not what I was hoping for in a star studded WR class and with a crying need at the position.
2. Cole Bishop - Looks like he should be just what the doctor ordered at safety for the Bills. He seems to be more Poyer than Hyde, in that he's at his best in the box and playing the run, and he packs a wallop when he tackles. He appears to have untapped man coverage potential, with Dalton Kincaid saying Bishop usually got the better of him 1-on-1 at Utah. He also has freaky speed for the position and a great mental disposition. Should be an easy fit in the Bills' scheme. At the VERY least, I expect him to contribute from day 1 as a dime 'backer, but I'll ultimately be surprised if he doesn't wind up starting at one of the two safety spots by midseason.
3. Dewayne Carter - Good bull rusher, great motor, tons of experience, impeccable character. Seems like a 1T/3T 'tweener. Quickly apparent from his interviews that he's one of the smartest, most likable, easy to root for guys you'll ever see in the NFL. Should be a quality rotational tackle for the Bills and seems like, in time, he will provide quality leadership and a steadying presence on the D-line. May never be a big play guy, but may at least be a "dirty work" guy who allows others around him to thrive.
4. Ray Davis - Hard running inside guy with great vision, ability to get skinny, contact balance, and underrated breakaway ability. Had the most receiving TDs in 2023 of any SEC running back in 25 years. Should provide a nice change of pace to James Cook without the Bills necessarily losing anything in the pass game when he comes on the field. An older prospect, but I don't care, because he's a running back, and he won't be here past his first contract anyway. Another "likability" and leadership All-Star. Davis should provide steadiness and depth, but doesn't do anything that wows you, and I'm not sure he moves the needle much on offense.
5. Sedrick Van Pran - Tons of starting experience at Georgia. Has some traits reminiscent of Mitch Morse in terms of quickness, twitch, and ability on the move. Stop me if you've heard this one before -- lauded for his leadership. Should provide a good backup plan to Connor McGovern at center and/or provide competition at that position. It will not shock me if this guy is starting by year two. Seems like a great value at this point in the draft. One of my favorite picks.
5. Edufuan Ulofoshio - What do you want me to say? You didn't think the Bills would let a draft pass them by without selecting a late round special teams linebacker, did you? The room is starting to get a bit crowded with Milano, Bernard, Williams, Morrow, Spector, and Ulofoshio. However...the Bills lost ST stalwarts Dodsen, Matakevitch, and Neal, and needed some reinforcements there. That's what Ulo seems to be. I'll be surprised if he ever amounts to more than that, but at this point in the draft, that's what you're getting.
5. Javon Soloman - Undersized speed rusher (though he does have a great wingspan for the position) who had absolutely eye-popping production at Troy, where he out-produced Demarcus Ware and Osi Umenyoira. He can be a designated pass rusher and special teams guy and can learn from his idol Von Miller, after whom he says he models his game. Very much a boom/bust prospect, with seemingly equal potential to be the steal of the draft or an outright bust. I liked this pick a lot, and I'm betting on the former over the latter.
6. Tylan Grable - What do you want me to say? Did you think the Bills were gonna let a draft go by without taking a project offensive tackle late? I don't have much to say about this guy. He's just like Tommy Doyle or Luke Tenuta before him: a developmental tackle prospect who's a long shot to make the 53-man roster. With VanDemark and Collins already in place as backup OTs, it's hard to see this guy making the roster.
6. Daequan Hardy - Special teams guy. Standout punt returner and gunner. I usually look to Bills' late round corners with excitement, because they're usually big-bodied guys with zone eyes who only dropped due to underwhelming athleticism. Hardy does not appear to fit that mold. He appears instead to be a punt return candidate and, beyond that, I'm not sure where he'd fit in. His only hope is as a nickel, but the Bills are obviously set there with Taron Johnson.
7. Travis Clayton - At least this one's fun. A guy from the International Pathways program who has never played a down of football in his life. But he's 6'7", 301 lbs and runs a 4.79. The hope is that he turns into the next Jordan Mailata. A fun story and will be fun to track, but obviously a longshot and likely a practice squad guy at best.
Overall, it was clear that leadership, maturity, and experience were high priorities for the Bills this year. Again and again, they picked guys who were team captains and lauded for their leadership abilities. Given all the leadership that walked out the door this offseason, that certainly makes sense. Again and again, they picked guys with lots of starting experience, guys who shined at the Senior Bowl, and guys who have their heads screwed on straight. Given that they will be counting on some of these guys to contribute from day one, and given that they seem to be doing a bit of a locker room reset, this also makes sense.
The reason that I am ultimately unexcited by this year's draft class is this: I wanted the Bills to prioritize building around Josh Allen. I wanted them to either take a swing for the fences by trading up for a star receiver, or -- failing that -- to go the Packers route and draft a handful of skill position players to surround him with. If they were unable to acquire great quality, then I hoped they would at least acquire quantity. I fear that in choosing Keon Coleman, they may have failed to achieve the "quality" goal, and in refusing to draft any other receivers, they also failed to achieve the "quantity" goal. And Ray Davis is the definition of "uninspiring" at running back. He'll be a fine depth player and grind out tough yards, I'm sure, but he doesn't move the needle much on offense. Neither Coleman nor Davis seem like they upgrade the offense. Just...status quo at best.
In a year where I felt the very TOP priority was to improve on offense, I feel the Bills failed to meaningfully do so. In an offseason where I hoped they'd make a bold move or two to try to find an elite player for this offense, they failed to try. After hearing "Josh needs more weapons" for a couple years running, he now seems to have less. The WR corps seems to have regressed, and seems to lack any true downfield explosiveness or viable deep threat.
This draft class was not a disaster, by any means. it seems FINE. Just fine. Keon Coleman doesn't scream "Alpha WR1" to me. Ray Davis seems like an average NFL backup. Cole Bishop and Javon Soloman seem to perhaps have playmaking potential on defense. Beyond that -- meh.
When the Bills decided to go young and start a roster reset, I had hope that Beane was gonna try to do things differently, since the old way he was doing things didn't get the Bills over the hump. They've been hitting too man singles and doubles over the years and not enough home runs. Instead, he appears to be doing things exactly the same way this time around. He seems to be content to collect character/culture guys, whose ceiling is "good, solid NFL player", rather than taking any risks or big swings for potential stars. He hasn't really taken those swings, to my estimation, since the Allen/Edmunds class. THAT'S why I'm disappointed in this draft class. It seems fine, solid, steady, and logical, but it doesn't seem like it'll move the needle much.
I will move on to hoping that the post June 1st money infusion brings us a quality veteran receiver and maybe a pass rusher either via free agency or trade. Failing that, it would be hard for me to conclude anything other than that it looks like the Bills are poised to take a step back this year. 2025 looks promising in terms of cap space and draft capital, but if it's gonna continue to be "business as usual" for Brandon Beane, then I'm not sure how excited I should allow myself to get for that.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.-
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5 minutes ago, VW82 said:
Everyone gets we're going to try Coleman at X. The problem people are having is his college profile (bad man or press, decent zone) often doesn't translate to X in the pros. Where you have seen it translate is by moving guys like that into the slot. e.g. St. Brown, JuJu, Rice, Boyd, etc.
Agreed. This is why I wanted the Bills to get Javon Baker, so that if Coleman DOES wind up flaming out there and becoming more of a big slot, they have a backup plan.
Oh well. -
1 minute ago, 90sBills said:
‘Sons rarely live up to fathers’ legacies’ bias.
Didn't affect Marvin Harrison Jr.
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I'm not a fan of the Keon Coleman pick, but to say that he's Kelvin Benjamin is a lazy, reductionist take.
Coleman is a different type of player and is more athletic and less stiff and offers better RAC than Benjamin.
I'm guessing you just looked at their heights and their a alma mater before making your statement.
And Davis isn't Zack Moss. He's the love child of Zack Moss and Devin Singletary. So...you're probably actually on to something with that one.-
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If you’re upset about the WR room - BLAME DIGGS
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
Nah.
Beane went into a very deep WR draft armed with 11 picks. He had so many that he traded one away for a 2025 pick instead.
He came out of the weekend with just one wide receiver prospect. He managed to add TWO offensive tackles, spend 4th round capital on a running back, and add a special teams linebacker and a punt returner...but he couldn't bring himself to take more than one bite at the apple at the biggest need position on the roster.
Diggs may have set things in motion, but Beane had ample opportunity to do more to address the wide receiver position this weekend and chose not to.