JC2002
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Posts posted by JC2002
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Unfortunately true. Nobody is going to entertain the notion but he is sack prone and he doesn't look like he has spent much time in a weight room building up any tolerance for it. Part of his charm is his every day Joe physique but you don't see too many 30 something QB's that don't look like they've been hitting the weights.
Orton was always known as a guy who would throw it in the dirt or away rather than take a sack . He stepped into a situation where he has to win over his teammates as well as help develop some young players . I don't think we will see nearly as many sacks on him going forward
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the lesson is do not pay a QB $100 Mil if he hasn't delivered you at a minimum multiple in conference championships in a row.
the Bills are still being laughed at for paying Fitz what they did.
well then you would not have a QB as they would simply walk be right back looking at Qbs
What the Bill did with Fitz is irrelevant as it is a different team and situation that it was 3 years ago .
On one hand you say teams like teh bengals should regret what they gave Dalton based a lot on what he did 3 years ago while at the same time suggesting e make moves based on something that also happened 3 years go .
You cant live in the past you should only be making moves based on what you feel is best forthe team now and moving forward not from the fear of something that happened 3 years ago .
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the lesson here is.... DO NOT jump onto the Orton can win it all bandwagon too fast.
and if Orton wants out the Bills can pursue Brian Hoyer as the next stop gap
there is no lesson to be learned there in regards to Orton as the situations are nothing alike . If anything it says that just because you draft them high and they start off well it does not mean they will get better . The bengals put a good running game and defense around Dalton and he has AJ green and he still cant play well enough for his team to win .
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You're right. The reason the Bears went 10-5 under Orton as a rookie is because of his 9 tds, 13 ints and 59 qb rating. He carried that team.
http://www.pro-footb...tm?mobile=false
But keep thinking Alex Smith is as good as Drew Brees because he has a good W-L record.
Orton has had basically the same career as Fitz. Personally, I respect that. But I don't want either starting for the Bills long term.
Again you are backtracking and falling into the abyss
What does Alex Smith have to do with Drew Brees no one is comparing them and it would be stupid to do as statistically they are not n the same universe .
You said Orton and Fitz are alike because they have been on 5 teams ? They both have probably been to hawaii how does that make them alike ?
No matter how you try and detract from it THE FACTS are that one QB seems to end up winning and one seems to end up losing is that not the most important stat of all and the one a team that has not been to playoffs in 15 years should care most about ?
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This BS win loss record. Unless you're One of the top Qbs, you aren't affecting W-L records. Orton's best W-L record was his first year and he was thought of as the weak link on those Bears time.
FItz has threw for more tds in a season than Irton ever has. FItz QB rating is 78. Orton is 81.
I'm not one trashing Fitz. But people aren't consistent. We got a better armed, less mobile Fitz.
So a w-l record is BS you just make this stuff up easy you go along ? Only qbs you choose affect win loss record ? Im guessing we are to believe that Orton didn't make a difference in us winning these last few games games over our previous qb ? Nevermind that we have quotes from players and others on the difference orton has made but hey because it doesn't fit your argument that Orton hand Fitz are no different or that Orton is only slightly better than EJ well than you just leave that out .
Fitz over the seasons has gone
0-3,
4-7-1 ,
4-4
4-9
6-10
3-6
3-6
4-5
Yeah you just keep trying to convince yourself that Orton and fitz are the same
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I don't know. I think Orton and Fitz are a lot closer than some folks think. Orton has a better arm, Fitz has better mobility and avoids sacks. There is a reason both have been on 5 times.
I just think it's funny that we trash one and think of the other as our MVP. Both guys are solid NFL QBs who are borderline starters.
Maybe because they are not as alike as you may think . Fitz has never finished a season where he has won more than he has loss .. I dont know why you believe that something like that does not matter when you are trying win games .
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We haven't made the playoffs in 15 seasons and people are concerned with 5 years from now ? At 31 years old there is no reason Orton couldn't be the guy for the next 3-4 years which is a eternity in the NFL but the playoffs determines that .The numbers say Orton is playing better than he ever has but its tough to calculate how much is simply Orton improving and how much is the rule changes which has given the majority of competent qbs an uptick in numbers . Post-bye I am not worried about him constantly posting huge numbers I want to see the offense expand and grow during a push towards a playoff game.
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]Thats not entirely true. You are correct in theory. But the statement is flawed ONLY because was supposed to come in and be a game manager. We were supposed to have a running game. We were supposed to be run first. BUT we didnt field a running line. And we couldn't get Spiller OR Jackson to where they were supposed to be. So yes we said we built to ejs strengths but we actually have not fielded anything that makes this a true statement.
With an entire offseason and training camp that statement is 100% true . What we saw being ran are things that EJ has shown that he was capable and good at running in minicamp on through training camp. Did we expect to run the ball better ? Yes but the play calls were based around things EJ were believed to be capable of doing .
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I'm confused -- those are my examples of QBs who became very good or excellent in their 30s after pretty nondescript performances in their 20s. Shouldn't you be saying the opposite? That Orton fits well within this group of 7? Because I can assure you that 99% of Bills fans would be thrilled if Orton is the second coming of Trent Green or Brad Johnson, not to mention Steve Young ...
But thats just it Orton was not nondescript, the guy was the highest paid backup in the league making over 5 million because was considered a starting caliber QB . I see the league as having 8 elite qbs at the top and those 8 move up and down those 8 slots every year depending on team ,injuries etc . After those 8 the next 10 qbs do almost the same thing they move up and down those 10 slots and sometimes they have a year where they jump into the top 8 . the last time orton started full time he was in that that second tier of qbs in the 8-18 range and had shown that he could have stretches where he could produce like the top 8 . So what he is doing should not be a surprise and I dont think his numbers will stay that high they will fall slightly and he will settle right into that 8-12 range .
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Every time one of these "Orton can be our franchise QB" threads breaks out I try to think of examples of QBs who were like him. By that I mean (1) had little or at most some mixed success as a starter, but couldn't hold onto the job in his 20s, and (2) became a very good QB in his 30s and sustained it for at least 4 years. So far, here's my list, going back in time:
1. Rich Gannon
2. Trent Green
3. Brad Johnson
4. Steve Young
5. Lynn Dickey
6. Craig Morton
7. Billy Kilmer
Testaverde doesn't really count -- he had some very good season on very bad Tampa teams, and even in his 30s "comeback" he was kind of up and down. Kerry Collins is almost an example, but there was no sustained 4 year high performance. Plunkett is also not really a good comp -- he also had very promising early seasons followed by a couple comeback seasons including a Super Bowl but not really sustained high performance.
So of that bunch, I think we can all agree we don't have the second Steve Young here. Young played poorly in his first 2 NFL seasons with the dysfunctional Bucs, then played really well for a few seasons when he got in as Montana's back-up, then took off when Montana missed basically a full year. The other guys are better comparables, some more than others. Gannon had a different skill set -- he was very mobile. So that leaves us with Kilmer (one of the strangest Pro Bowl-level QB runs ever; the guy threw like a righty Tebow), Brad Johnson (getting warmer here), and Craig Morton and Trent Green and Lynn Dickey (pretty damn close if I remember them correctly). So it's not unprecedented for a journeyman QB to become something close to a "franchise QB" in his 30s.
Of course, I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of one or two year wonders, all the Bobby Heberts and (dare I say it) Doug Fluties and the like. So I'd be wary of signing Orton to an extended Ryan Fitzpatrick type deal ...
Totally different eras and none of those qbs situations are even close to Ortons .
Ortons 31 and has over 65 starts before coming here and won half of them. Some of those guys had only started handful of games by the time they hit there 30's and several; were 34-35 years old during these runs .
IMO Orton is simply a a QB with starting experience and experience in multiple offensive systems . The Cowboys were paying him over 5 million per year hes not some unicorn . Hes playing better than heh ever has but he hasn't gone from 2 to a 9 hes moved from 5-6 to a 8-9 in play and considering hes in prime years for a QB it shouldn't come as a surprise .
The playoffs are what should determine his fate as far as long term deals go .
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Again, ORton completed 51% of his passes averaging 5.1 ypa his first 15 games. EJ has completed 58.6% of his passes at 6.43 ypa. Why can't he improve too?
Orton was forced to adjust to a system not built around his strengths while EJ was playing in system designed around his .
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I am gonna say this regarding the turnovers by Orton
- First....he did not turn the ball over against the jets.
- He did however have turnovers prior to that.....I think that if we are gonna hitch our team to the Orton Wagon we need to accept the fact that he is gonna throw a interception here and there.....we are SO USED to EJ Manuel being ultra conservative with the ball that we are not used to seeing a QB throw a interception......CONFIDENT QB's THROW INTERCEPTIONS
- So....the question then becomes....now what? Lets keep in mind that our Offensive line cannot block for a 100 yard game rushing for running backs that we know to be talented.
- Lets keep in mind that prior to the jets game LT and LG couldnt pick up a stunt if their lives depended on it.
SOOOOO.....the two big things that must improve if we are on the Orton train......better interior OL play for both run blocking and pass protection. Because we have SEEN what Orton does with a clean pocket.....a. he will still throw a interception from time to time throwing into a tight spot but b. The guy can flat throw the ball and he has a emerging superstart to throw it to.
bottom line....I will live with the interceptions here and there if we can get the rest of this fixed. Orton in my opinon is a pretty darn good qb.
Fans just like the offense have got need help breaking them of the bad habits they learned from EJ. Orton was considered by most a captain checkdown almost entirely based on his time with the Bears so he knows how to play conservative football the probably was that EJ had been so conservative for so long the offense struggled to do anything consistently outside . So Orton of course of going to be ultra aggressive and even take a few sacks because the line is conditioned that the ball is gonna be dumped off in 2 seconds . Orton will take a sack because he knows that down the line he will need that 4 seconds for play that possibly wins the game and so the line has to learn to give him that 4 seconds it may take them until the send of the season get there but I think they will do it . When you read about how Orton responds to the turnovers and compare it to how people respond around here to turnovers its actually pretty funny
http://www.rochester...jYUugE8qVKmRzGQ
Through good and bad in Buffalo, Orton has showed little emotion and the Bills love him for it. The team started noticing with his reaction to a pick-six in his first game against Detroit.
"You look at it and go wow, this is a big moment to see how he's going to respond and see what kind of person he is, when something that bad happens," Hackett said. "The best thing about Kyle is he doesn't care. He is just straight even keeled the whole time. I mean, he throws a pick six and I'm sitting here like oh my gosh what's gonna go on, then we go down 14-zero and he comes right back and just hey, what's the next play."
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#Bills are noticing the Kyle Orton difference. #Billsmafia http://www.rochester...KmRzGQ …
Fits right into this topic
Despite many questions about how Orton could potentially turn this four-game run into a more permanent resurgence as an NFL starting quarterback, Orton has refused to consider any opportunities for him long term. He steadfastly, almost maniacally, will only discuss the next game.
"You have to focus on Wednesday," Orton said last Wednesday. "Because if you let a Wednesday slip by, it can hurt you on Sunday."
"This is my first time being in the locker room with somebody playing as well as he is and not really been talked about so," Fred Jackson said. "That's the thing about him,
he doesn't care. He just wants to win games."
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If we make the playoffs, do you guys think Orton might ask for more money in the offseason?
CBF
Of course but I think he will be expecting to be the man for the foreseeable future as opposed to simply breaking the bank.Depending on our cap situation IF that were to happen I would pay him crapload of dough upfront and take the hit immediately and to try to keep the cap hit around what his salary is right now going forward
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Here we go with all the "can't teach accuracy" posts, but no one can explain why? As I posted earlier in the thread, why is this the only position in sports where accuracy can not be taught/learned?
I think think the belief is that accuracy can be IMPROVED but it cannot be taught sorta like with Tebow .This is the same issue .
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A lot of mental hoops being jumped through to avoid admitting being wrong.
The changes in the passing game between 2005 and now are not relevant. The median completion percentage among qualifying QBs was 60.6% in 2005, exactly the same as 2013. Orton was below the median then and he is well above it now. He has improved.
Does anyone arguing this point actually know how to back up their opinion with supporting evidence?
I mean seriously, one of you is trying to offer up the limits of their imagination as a counter argument. (By the way, Losman once threw for 5 TDs in 5 quarters in 2006, so I have no problem envisioning pretty much any QB pulling off that feat).
and your argument is that changes to NFL passing game are irrelevant because the completion percentages stayed the same ? . . Who really is trying not to admit they are wrong here ?
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I assume you're talking about 2010 when he threw 20 tds and 9 picks. The reason he got benched was because he threw 3 picks AND lost a fumble (27.1 rating) against a mediocre Cardinals team. http://espn.go.com/n...ameId=301212022
Tebow played the final 3 games after that and threw for 651 yards (not sure where you got the 72ypg from).
The next year (2011), Orton started the first 5 games and went 1-4, throwing 8 tds and 7 picks. It wasn't like he was playing great and the Broncos just dumped him solely to try out a young qb. And you can't blame the lack of weapons around him seeing as he had decent receivers in Lloyd and Decker. Thus, I don't see how anyone could have predicted he would be having a great season 3 years later for another team.
In 2011 that was a new coach(John Fox) who changed the offensive system to a run heavy scheme going away from the shotgun passing that Mcdaniels ran the a year earlier .Orton was supposed to be traded the Dolphins prior to training camp but the Miami owner nixed the deal at the last minute and so they were forced to keep him and start him or cut him as everyone knew he as better than tebow . But he was not running a system based around his strengths and the continuing development of him as a qb . Orton outside of the tebow crap seems to have been a competent QB
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That is a weird argument to make considering who our other quarterback is.
College:
Orton = 786/1336 (58.8% Completion)
Manuel = 600/897 (66.9% Completion)
First 2 Seasons Pro:
Orton = 233/448 (52.0% Completion)
Manuel = 256/437 (58.6% Completion)
Orton played in 13 or more games in four out of his first five seasons. In only one of those seasons (2009, Denver, 62.1%) was his completion percentage better than Manuel's number this year (58.0%). Orton is a great example of how a quarterback can develop this skill as a professional.
You are comparing different era's ,teams and systems
This is where you have to look beyond the stats
Orton was a shotgun spread passer and the question in 2004 was whether those types of Qbs could make the transition to the NFL and traditional offenses . Most thought he would be effective in the Patriots system but he as drafted by the bears who was basically a power I team back then . His first two season was spent learning not how to throw but how to operate from under center . Its no surprise that when he went to Denver and joined Josh Mcdaniels in running the pats shotgun system that he started putting up big numbers . His strengths was always reading defenses and accurate delivery in the mid range passing attack
Ej coming out of college was a project as a passer and all of his strengths were almost all physical and all his weaknesses were all technique and mental he joined a team that put in a read option attack and tons of plays that are similar to what he ran in college .
This is really like comparing apples and oranges .
Now Orton has improved tremendously but also league offenses since 2004 have gravitated towards what have always been his strengths.
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Obviously, Orton is a much better passer at this point. I would hope when EJ is in his tenth year, he will be better. The fact that Orton has become a better QB with more experience is why you continue to develop EJ. Look at Orton's first 15 games: http://www.nfl.com/p...ogs?season=2005 51.6%, 5.1 ypa, 9 tds, 13 ints, 59.7 qb rating and a game where he threw 0 tds and 5 ints.
I still believe anything less than a winning record and this is a mistake. But so far, especially with the first legit win, it looks good. Hopefully, EJ is learning in the meetings and from Orton. I think we finally have a team good enough where we can sit a 1st rounder on the bench and not be forced to play him.
Again Ortons first 15 games are irelevant stats to compare todays qbs too as the times were totally different . Orton came into the league as a spread shotgun passer but he was drafted by a team that ran power I so he had to learn how to play under center to play for the Bears. We were running read option because of EJ who came into the league as a non passing project .
The minute Orton joined the broncos and was in a shotgun passing attack he immediately looked better because that's what he was already good at when he entered the pros .
Ej can certainly improve but we have yet to even get an idea of how his skills can translate to the NFL . In Ortons case something that was considered situational (shotgun based offense) eventually grew to be a standard.
This offseason we have to take a step back and actually what type of QB EJ can actually be in the NFL if any .
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Pat Kirwan is one of my favorite commentators, but if you listen to him, he hasn't been completely sold on the Bills, and especially Orton. He's slowly gaining confidence, but his comments early on suggest what's happening in Buffalo is a mirage.
And let's be honest. It is a mirage to some extent. There's no question you'll find Kirwan picking the Chiefs over the Bills when the game comes up in two weeks.
the defense is not a mirage and we should be higher based on that alone . We lost our running game so everyone said and then we have our biggest win yet on the road against a great defensive defense fron who was supposed to make life miserable for our QB.
I didn't expect us to jump into the top ten but the Lions are 8th up from 12th having played since we beat them Vikings,Saints ,,Falcons and all three are ranked below us now . Our only loss since we played them have been to the Pats.
No movement at all simply doesnt add up
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Half way through the season and the Bills Defense leads the league in sacks (28) and takeaways (18) along with being the best run stopping unit in the NFL.
These stats/achievments combined with a good passing QB on the Offense, but who's biggest downside is mobility, begs run the football. Get the Bills Offense into 3rd and short situations and allow Kyle Orton to pick his spots throwing downfield. Ortons proved he can sling the football and win games at crunch time. Flipping the football field with good D, and Running the football keeps Kyle Orton healthy.
This conservative approach to success is coming from the top IMO, and If the Bills freight train of a D continues with the pace its on I would expect more of the same as the Bills try to reach the playoffs for the 1st time in over a decade.
"Calculated"
Playoffs Baby!!! We can do this!!!!
I agree and to add to this
- This team is learning how to win its a process and with a new qb you are going to be on the conservative side at times . The goal is to continue to get better and improve over time to better in week 8 than you were in 1 and to better in week 17 than you were in week 8 .
- We have some extremely young players in key positions on this team and so everything is a learning opportunity. So whose to to say some of the play calls were not to simply get certain things on film against one of the best D-lines in football. We feel we are in control of the game so lets try some fancy stuff or lets get some stuff on film to work with this Oline on the next two weeks .
- This team is learning how to win its a process and with a new qb you are going to be on the conservative side at times . The goal is to continue to get better and improve over time to better in week 8 than you were in 1 and to better in week 17 than you were in week 8 .
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Something's going on as Mike Williams was a stud in Tampa. 3 of 4 seasons he was above 1000 yards. I'm not blaming Hackett or Marrone. I don't know. I don't expect you guys to know Williams as I live in Tampa, but it is really perplexing they have a talent like him, yet do not play him.
Maybe he isn't putting in the time in the film room, or spending extra time with Orton. It makes no sense, from a business as he has a chance to do well this year, and can make some decent money. If he gets cut next year, he will go for the league minimum. Is he that dumb to not put it on the line for this team.
It's a damn shame as he could be an excellent #2 and a great red zone threat. I'm really disappointed in him at this point.
I remember them saying last week that Hogan knows all the wide out positions . If Williams only knows Sammies position then when does he play ? This is not on the coaches MW is not some young guy he is a NFL veteran and he should be putting in the work and forcing them to play him . Instead it seems like he wants the snaps because is is MW not because he has earned them .
The one thing I've noticed is how everyone keeps repeating about how Orton has brought an attention to detail and seriousness to preparation in the film room,walk thrus .etc. he is basically the veteran of the receiving corps and I don't think he was setting the example that you would expect from from a vet surrounded by so many young wideouts.
This bye week is big for him
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Puzzled by this - Jay Cutler was in Denver and Chicago Fans had no chance to crush on him until the Bears FO swapped Orton and a handful of draft picks (2 1sts and a 3rd) for Cutler.
I'm happy as any Bills fan should be at the QB play this game. I can even go with the "don't mind a couple of sacks, provided the ball is protected" camp.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is Orton's history. He was thrown into the fire his rookie year after Grossman was injured. He didn't do so well or look so good, even though the team won and went to the playoffs - he had the lowest QB rating in the league. The Bears were so impressed they demoted him to 3rd string for the next 2 years behind Rex Grossman and Brian Griese, and when he finally got the chance to start again in his 4th season, the Bears were so impressed they sold the house, the furniture, and Orton to obtain Cutler.
Please don't misinterpret- I'm not trying to take a thing away from Orton's current play, and I hope it continues! Just bear in mind that it's NOT simply "wrong place wrong time". The Bears did not have that much "man crush" on Grossman or Griese, Orton simply couldn't beat them out his 2nd or 3rd year. He looked like you'd expect a guy who played 14 games and had the lowest QB rating in the league to look. Orton had a significant chance to start early on in his career, on a team that would have been happy to anoint him a starter, and wasn't able to take advantage of it AT THAT TIME.
If he continues to do well here, it will be an example of a QB who needed time to develop, got it, developed, and then found a team willing to give him a shot, not a guy who always had the goods and never caught a break.
Which is a story worth bearing in mind for those who want to declare EJ irretrievably broken and a bust after 16 games.
Orton was never given the chance because they had Grossman . To say the Bears would have went away from Grossman is just not true . Once the bears discovered they had a top 5 defense and special team and running game after not having been relevant for a long time . They were not going to spend time developing Orton and especially starting a qb competition when they had a 1st rd qb who was coming back off injury .
Lets keep in mind that Orton was a SHOTGUN passer a bigtime one at that coming out of Purdue but back then shotgun qbs were not as in style as they are now . The Bears were a I formation team who referred to themselves as getting off the bus running so it shouldn't be a surprise that Orton struggled his rookie year as the Bears didn't change anything . They basically forced Orton to learn a whole new style of play. Once Grossman was back from injury Orton didnt get any reps outside of scout team until 2007 and didn't get a chance to compete for the job in the offseason until 2008 which he then won the job . You say he was demoted but in reality he was always the 3rd string guy in the bears eyes holding the spot until the starter came back his rookie year.
Ej was in a situation where he had an entire offense built around things he presumably did well . The comparison just is not there
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Well i would consider age a factor. i think the money he will make with Buffalo in his current contract might be enough to let him think on other quality of life factors. To your point JC , i am not sure Orton wants to be on the field in 4 years. lets keep in mind he was talking retirement.
I think the Bills had one hell of a bait to hook him with. That's partly why i think he has found his home here. he will transition to the back up just fine when the time comes.
again nothing against his play , but I hope EJ pans out or we find a a gem in two years
Orton wanted to start and he used retirement to get out of dallas .The market for Qbs changed dramatically since Manning was a free agent which is when Orton was a free agent . Everyone wanted a young runner but then they started realizing that some of them wont survive the growing pains of those qbs and so veterans are back in demand .Imagine you are Orton behind Romo and see the attention Mckown got last spring .
Orton Not the Answer
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Orton was off yesterday but considering he was on fire to start and then the ridiculous drops it was just crazy .
This team is learning how to win and it would have been fantastic if Orton could have pulled us from the fire for a 3rd time but in close games you simply can't muff a punt in a 3pt game in the 4th and you cant want to be a back in the NFL and fumble out the back of the red zone AGAINST GOOD TEAMS . The first rule of being a good football team is to not beat yourself .
Orton right now is the answer because hes put us position to where we get to see players in position to make plays that can help us win football games and we are seeing a lot of warts as a result. Ortons long term viability has always in my eyes been dependent on us getting to playoffs.