JC2002
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Posts posted by JC2002
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We're not talking about playcalling. The playcalling on the plays in question is very, very clear. Orton missed WIDE OPEN receivers, period.
The question is how him missing those receivers falls on the coaching staff when he's the one with the ball in his hands.
Every QB misses throws that is nothing new but it doesnt matter if Orton starts out 7-7 would still struggle because there is ALWAYS something with is offense , Everyone is inconsistent so missed throws is apart of it but so are many other factors .
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Put it this way. Who do you think lining up at QB right now gives the Bills the best chance of getting a first down or touchdown from one yard away, considering all of the possible play calls, Orton or EJ?
considering our inability to get 1 yard on so many occasions this year I will say no one because it all depends on if the Oline decides to show up
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I just don't get where you are getting this from that he has never been this bad. I brought up previously in this thread that statistically this is about his 2nd best year of his career stat wise. Some things from Orton's wiki:
2005: Orton finished with the lowest quarterback rating in the NFL (59.7) among all "qualified" quarterbacks. Despite the low rating, the Bears coaches repeatedly insisted that they were pleased with Orton's performance. The coaching staff asked Orton to minimize mistakes and to let the rushing attack and the defense win ballgames rather than employing an aggressive passing attack.
2008: From week 11 on Orton threw eight touchdowns, and eight interceptions while averaging a quarterback rating of 66.9, including ratings of 39.1 against Minnesota, 49.2 against New Orleans, and 48.7 against Green Bay.
2011: Orton entered the 2011 season as the Broncos starting quarterback. The team had a 1–4 start with Orton throwing 8 touchdowns and 7 interceptions as the starter, accumulating 979 yards and completing 58.7% of his passes
He was deemed not good enough by the Bears and replaced. He was deemed not good enough by the Broncos and replaced. The highest qb rating of his career was 87.5 he currently sits at 86.7. What you are seeing is not a ruined or bad Kyle Orton what you are seeing is Kyle Orton being Kyle Orton and actually a better than normal Kyle Orton.
Where do you get this idea that "he has never been this bad?"
So what happened before WEEK 11 in 2008 ?
Why did you skip 2010 ?
What happened at the end of 2011 ?
What I guess I am not understanding boils down to this right here. IF and that's a big if it is that he is "shackled" how does that effect him missing on several throws. The short pass to Freddy and the one linked above behind Woods are 2 perfect examples of throws that he just plain missed. How does being shackled lead to those misses? If he is coached to take the safe play and those are 2 very safe plays how is it coaching that is causing him to miss them?
Why cant it be a mix of things ? Why does it have to be just one ? Why cant Orton have missed on several throws as all Qbs do ? Why cant the playcalling also have been bad at certain times ? he occurrence of one does not completely eliminate the occurrence of the other issues ?
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He did seem better at deep throws, but he has been pretty bad overall. The Vikings game, that first Jets games...ugh, they were painful, yet so many rolled out "it's a win!". Yes, wins, but terrible quarterbacking. I'm at a loss as to why he hasn't been more consistent (at least more consistently good), I thought that's why you bring in a veteran?
Dude, I'm not sure if you are related to Orton or something, but I'm done reading your rationalizations.
WTF are u talking about ? I asked a question can you answer . All you seem to do is nitpick and me myself Im trying to work my mind around why you think we should have a great passing attack when we didn't have one last year and the Oline is crazily inconsistent.
You try and rationalize your hate of one guy while i'm trying to discuss how the entire offense can get better .
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Throw it out there!
Wasnt this pass directly into the wind at the start of the second quarter the same wind that had Rodgers passes outside of the hash marks way off as well in the 1st quarter ?
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I agree.
I just re-watched the first half of the game. Our offense was given the ball 7 times (not counting the Thigpen runback) and totaled 3 points. Orton was probably directly responsible for 1 of those drives ending -- the one with the INT. Every other drive was stymied with the run getting completely stuffed, penalties, receivers slipping and falling down, dropped passes, or missed blocks resulting in sacks/pressure. There was an ugly 5 yd incompletion to Freddie, but that was on a 3rd and 18 and it didn't look like he was going to get the 1st even if he caught it.
This is on point
However what Hackett is doing is exactly what some were calling for prior to the bye . You go back and read those postgame threads and all anyone ever talked about were the sacks and turnovers despite us going down field and having some success . When you are dealing with a inexperienced offense you have to take to play fast and take the mistakes because we wont be disciplined or experienced enough to mount 15 play 80 yards drives all the time . When you try and bet on the 15 play drives you get exactly what you described tons of mistakes and stymied drives .
As for defenses they know Orton likes the seam routes and the back shoulders throw but the issues are that our offense is limited by its inexperience and lack of personnel in keys areas because we have seen Orton make just about every type of throw in the short time hes been here . We simply dont have the counters that are needed for a team that struggles to run the ball . We cant come out and attack teams like we did with Chandler against NE every game because Chandlers not consistent enough. None of our receivers prior to this year have done anything so this is basically their first experience with defense having their eyes on them so its a learning experience for them to adjust to the way defenses have adjusted to them. This puts pressure on everyone on the offense to play mistake free and thats extremely difficult to do even for veteran offenses .
One of the things I always think back on is that drive that went over a 100 yards on the final drive . We had penalties,sacks etc but the offense but it didnt matter because they continued attacking and looking for the big play . We need to get back to that even if means running some hurry up early in the game .
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It doesn't. It's just interesting that MW plays in the first four games, then has a 1 catch for 8 yard day vs. Detroit where he's (reportedly) seen on the sidelines isolating himself from his teammates. And then the very next week, in only the second game of Orton's tenure here, MW finds the inactive list for the first time. When Manuel first mentioned that he was impressed by Orton's 6am arrival times in order to get extra prep work with the receivers, I just assumed MW was part of the mix as well. Now to hear that Orton didn't even bother extending an invitation to MW while he was in earshot of the invites to others seems weird to me. Just a strange lockerroom politic all the way around on the surface.
GO BILLS!!!
In that quote it said in the days before Mike Williams release he didnt get an invitation not that he didnt get invited when Orton first arrived . For all we know he was extended an invitation the very first week and declined and then screwed up in the first game which was the Lions game which made Orton upset and now MW has an attitude the rest of the year after being called out , The coach sees this talks to him as a vet as they are expecting more but MW is set in his ways and so the team moves on .
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Rodgers and the Pack won the superbowl in '11 with one of the worst offensive lines in playoff history
Actually GB had a bunch of O-line injuries but that line was ranked about 11th and was actually pretty good up the middle
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forget about the plays where the OL gives up pressure immediately. No QB can have success on those plays, be it Brady or Geno Smith.
The problem, lately, is when he has time to throw, he's not stepping into his throws, he's not letting the play develop when there is actual time to do so. He's gun shy and he's being inaccurate on easy throws. That is reality. Another thing, he's not in command of the offense, he doesn't put the offense in better situations, he's like he going with the motions and running the plays the OC gives him.
You say he should put the offense in better situation but Ill say this again but you assume you know what they're capable of adjusting on the fly like that and I haven't seen it yet . Hes not gonna step into his throws when the center is usually getting pushed back into him . Hes a pocket passer so hes not looking to slide more than 1-2 yards either way while keeping his eyes down the field and he hasn't been able to do that lately .
The lack of the ability to punch it in on the ground within the red zone puts a ton of pressure on the passing game and gives them a very small margin of error . We are at 80% passing rate in the redzone and so everyone knows you are passing .
We can be better than we have shown but the margins are so much smaller than other than other teams .
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"Work in progress"...this is ridiculous. Rose colored glasses Dr. Pangloss.
The offense isn't getting any better. No Progress.
Did I read ZERO passing yards in the 1st quarter?
It's the 14th week of the season! That's not progress, more like Orton is maxed out.
of course we had no passing yards in the first quarter we had our biggest play called back because of offensive pass interference on sammie . When you are starting players at key positions that are so young you will have mistakes and issues that you will have to work through as they get experience .
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Marrone was quoted by the announcers as saying the way he builds his team is defense, special teams, and then offense in that order. If we get to 9 or 10 wins are we doomed to see this offense again next season? If so, we're going to be stuck in the mud, spinning our tires again. The offense is horrendous, and it's holding this team back.
I hope Pegula does whatever is necessary to keep this D together (including Schwartz). I hope to hell somebody in he organization puts an offense together and finds us a freaking QB.
The offense is not holding the team back YOU are accelerating the time from of the teams development to fit your own needs .
In todays game once you decide that your receiving core will all be under 23 you are deciding it will take some time for your offense to catch up to your defense and are willing to wait on it while they get experience . The failure so far comes from the Oline as you have to figure out why you from from top 5 to bottom 5 . If you can figure that out then the offense can certainly compliment the defense next season
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Until I see or hear what the context was, I call bullschit. Anybody with half a brain knows that building a team is NEVER a linear process, but for those that have missed the first thousand times I've posted Polian's formula, here is the importance of position if when building a team from scratch:
1.) Quarterback
2.) pass rushing DE
3.) Left OT
4.) RB
5.) WR
Nothing about the game's evolution in the last 20 years has changed that. Polian was right back then and he's right today.
GO BILLS!!!
Actually he was wrong then and hes wrong now the history of the game says as much
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That's great and all, but who's going to be our QB? Sure, the Bills will win some ball games, maybe even challenge for a wild-card spot, but without a QB they're not going any further.
If we improved the Oline and settled on a feature back why couldn't we win more games and why couldnt we go any farther . Not everyone can have a Rodgers to think that we cant go far unless we have one is ridiculous
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Not having a top-20 NFL QB, and then having him work with a rookie and two second-year WRs, a merely serviceable TE and just three average NFL starter quality OL might make you go that route.
But hey, let's not look reality in the face. This is TSW, afterall...
Plz dont kill their vibe
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So its the recivers? Im seeing a ton of talent at that position. Why did Odell Beckham have like 160 yrds today and score three TD's? Because they got him involved early and often. Odell Beckham is no better, i say again, no better than Sammy.
Who said the receivers were not talented ? The Giants are 5-9 WITH the win today so the goal is to get the first rd pick more touches but they also have a better O-line in fact one of the better Olines.
We dont have the Oline where we can play the chucking game and we dont have the running game where we can pound it in from inside the redzone either so the margin of error for our offense is so small that as the season winds down and the book on us has become quite long it becomes harder and harder to do the thing the few things we are good at
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My points are valid and factual. By taking it to the you shoulda level, youve shown theres little arguement to keep that bum in there in lieu of a younger stronger faster and way more in football shape guy.
Carry on your rampant Orton apologist mentality.
14/27 158 yrds.
54.2 QBR
EJ has 14 games under his belt and hes better than that. Me, i wanna see what he can do after he gets in his rhythm
Im not making apologizes for anyone just stating the facts to people who obviously think we should have some type of all time great offense but cant even began to say why.
We have receiving corp who came into the season with a combined career td count of less than ten but we should be throwing passing tds all over the field
We have running attack who fell from top 5 to bottom 5 and we throw 80% of the time in the redzone .
Yet somehow its the guy who took over after game 4 that's the problem with the offense .
In their relentless mission to blame the offenses failures on one guy they still cant even explain why they think the offense should be better .
I said when Orton took over that one of the things that would happen is that we would be able to grade the rest of the offense and we have been . Orton has not played great but man this offense has no identity whatsoever
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Tired of weighing in on Orton/EJ threads. Orton is better, but he is no way good enough. Another bad game. No question, we have a better QB we be 10 and 4 right now. But hey...we just beat the freakin' Packers! Going to kick back and enjoy this for awhile before wringing my hands over Orton.
if we didnt fumble we would be 10-4
If we had Gronkowski we would be 10-4
If we played in the NFC south we would win the division
We are what we are and to be wishing we could be changing one thing as if it wouldn't have effects across the board is the fastest way to move backwards
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I watched 1/3 of the game today and i saw Orton throw screens to RB and TE in double coverage. I saw a strong offensive team effort to get in the red zone only to have passes thrown 8 yrd short of the endzone. I saw Orton get sacked twice and go down like a bag of moldy potatoes. The passing game wasn't there because the passer cant pass. Damn, EJ is athletic man!
Im so psyched we won! That was really awesome, i just can not stand to watch them snap the ball to him anymore
So everyone wanted to get in the endzone but Orton ? He didnt really have a lot of time to throw today and we were in a ton of 3rd and long situations because of penalties . You probably should've watched the rest of the game
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Uh no it doesn't. With Orton the Bills have beat Detroit, the Jets twice who are awful, Minnesota at home vs a rookie QB making his first road start, Cleveland who was obviously not as good as their record, and Green Bay today which the Bills won in spite of Orton. Which of those other games did Orton make a positive impact on and factor in the outcome? Detroit and maybe Minnesota.
With Orton the Bills lost 4 big games two of which were at home. The NE game was a total team loss so I won't hang that on Orton but Chiefs at home and Miami on the road were winnable games with better QB play.
If Ortons play was a result of the defenses he faced then why wasn't he better today vs one of the worst pass defenses in the league?
Like I said listing out the rankings of the defenses the Bills have faced and using it as an excuse for his poor play is extremely weak.
Because the offense is not just Orton its an inexperienced receiving corps and the offense as a whole is work in progress. The packers are one of the true man coverage teams and they are good they face Megatron,Jeffrey,and Brandon Marshall all the time so they are physical . One of of the biggest things today was the press man and the packers play it all the time but they are blitzing and if you dont adjust your routes and make your reads the passing game will be in trouble . But thats what the packers do to exploit young receivers they get them so excited about seeing the man coverage that they stop making there reads and breaking off routes and while they may get open the ball doesn't get there because the rush makes it first .
But Orton also missed a couple of throws but then the lines blows but then a drop but then a well executed play for big yards that gets called back due to a penalty . You see what Im saying there its ALWAYS something .
The main problem with this offense is consistency across the board in executing their assignments from play to play
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Thats insane. How can you say that? How can you think that Ej could look any worse than Orton today? In my eyes, everything was there, the offense played well, the game plan has been there for the last two weeks. Coaching isnt a problem, theres one glaring weakness on this team and we all saw what it was. I have no idea of Ortons stats today and i dont care. He looked awful. All i know is, is EJ stronger and faster. No offensive TD's says it all. EJ could have just as easily had no TD's today either. But i dont think he would have, i think EJ would have been able to punch it in once. Just on the energy the rest of the team was carrying alone.
Where are the offensive tds supposed to come from ? You cant even justify these comments because there is no evidence of the passing game to go off of .
The glaring weakness is the Oline and I think everyone saw that
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If Orton wouldn't consistently throw balls that make his WRs have to make difficult catches they wouldn't drop so many.
You can't keep putting them in that position and not expect them to drop some. How about putting most of them on the numbers with a scattering of balls that need great catches and then we can start calling out the WRs. As it is they make great catches time and time again and yeah, percentages say they're going to drop a few of those ducks.
Go watch the the teams with the top receivers and all they do is make highlight reel catches . I cant belive you watch any other team play go watch highlights of the top 5 passers in the league and the sewe the types of catches those receivers make on the regular.
Anything over 5 yards in this league and your receivers have to be willing to fight for the ball because you can bump within 5 yards so short throws are always going to be low see Manning and Brady for this . That leaves back shoulder and jump ball throws on our team the seam is guarded heavily as Orton in his first few games was shredding the seams and so that is taken away .
We have young receivers and they are inexperienced but they are learning but they are making quite a few mistakes
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Well, I never really thought Marrone's job was in jeopardy, maybe Hackett's?, but DM will be back. Really, give this team a good QB and they would be serious SB contenders.
What would change with a different ? We have one person on this team who prior to this year had more than 5 td catches and thats Chandler who had 6 . We pass 80% of the time in the redzone now because the running game has been ineffective and this is without even bringing up the Oline issues . Who would step in and Give Sammie,Woods,and Hogan the experience that they just don't have yet ?
The offense is a work in progress so at this point its about giving the defense some help to win the game even if its not pretty because ultimately its about trying to win based on what your team can actually do not what you hope they can do.
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Pats have played virtualy same schedule (afc east and west, NFC north), only difference swap browns and texans for bengals and colts. They've scored 120 more points than we have.
The Pats have had a unprecedented 15 years of continuity lol . Why would you expect our offense to be on the same level as the Patriots ?
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But EJ didn't get 2 games against the Jets to pad his stats...
Look, I am not saying that Manuel should be starting, just that if you take Orton's two games against the Jets out of the picture, he has been less than mediocre. No question that there are other problems around him including losing Jackson and Spiller, poor OG play and inexperienced WRs, but given how well the D has played and the good field position that they've provided the offense with, you'd expect an average NFL QB to score more points.
Why ? we were not a high scoring team to begin with . How do you name all those issues and expect more points ? I have no problem saying that we blew some opportunities and that Orton himself blew several but the offense has to pretty much play perfect and it just hadn't been able to do it . Is Orton to blame for a fumble in the endzone that puts up 2 scores ? the defensive penalty that puts the opponent inside the 10 in a 12-9 game ?
The offense is a work in progress you say we should be to get more points but How ? Mike Williams has more tds in his career(26) than all of our other receivers have combined in their careers and we didnt play the guy . FJ has a 1 TD lead over Orton for the team lead in rushing tds . Looking back on this season so far we have missed opportunities in the passing game but I think Marrone is probably not sleeping at night because of the collapse of the running game .
ruben browns comments
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Was trying to figure out why you tried to slant the facts to suit argument .
The Chiefs were in free fall and Orton came in and they went 2-1 and just missed the playoffs by fg
I saw them and on that first one wayne is completely wrong . On that comeback the ball is EXACTLY where it was supposed to be and we just aw Woods run the route in the previous couple of games and make that exact catch but he didn't slip . People are in such a rush to hate that you are nitpicking any and everything . Orton threw a few ducks but that comeback is not one of them