JC2002
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Posts posted by JC2002
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No you're wanting to look at the totality of the situation and not the simple fact Cutler is better than Orton. You are denying it and then wanting to bring up contract information, which is valid but has nothing to do with comparing only the QB's skills.
Cutler is better athlete than Orton but he is not a better QB .
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Good point.. I guess what I was trying to say is that Orton's attitude drives his performance. At this stage of his career the '"want to" desparate attitude is probably gone.His arm is better than Fitzy... But he doesn't have Fitzy's guts. His brain is better than EJ but he doesn't have EJ's mobility. As a classic pocket QB he has to be willing to throw guys open and take hits doing it and it's pretty clear he doesn't have the stomach for it anymore
This offense didnt have a camp with Orton so hes trying to work through his own mistakes as well as mesh with everyone else basically during live games. He didnt take over a well oiled machine.
Q: Where do you feel this offense is at right now going into this game on Sunday?
A: Really just the same thing; a weekly battle to improve and improve consistency and that starts with me. It’s our job to score points and we’ve got to do a better job at that and that means that I’ve got to do better, so I’ll work as hard as I can to get my own game and to get this offense where they need to be.
Oh I've seen him make many veteran plays. Sorry if I suggested otherwise. But at this stage in his career, I expect him to make fewer errors I expect from inexperienced QBs. i know he doesn't have the talent of some QBs, so to make up for it he should play smarter. No?
With no mini camp nor training camp there are going to be errors and the more you throw the more errors you are likely to have . Hes made more than he normally does but he basically has to work through them during lives games when normally you would lean on the run a bit more to alleviate those errors
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you have your opinion. I have mine. I believe he would be better than any QB we have seen since Jim Kelly. You don't agree. That's fine. I still don't want him on this team. I'm simply stating he would be better than what we have.
How do you justify considering a player with that many turnovers per season a difference maker ?
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I'd love to agree with you. But at this stage in his career, do you really think Orton has it in him? The guy has had numerous opportunities with numerous offenses and offensive lines. At some point you have to ask "Is this the best he can do?". As I said earlier, I'd be more optimistic if I saw Orton making veteran decisions under pressure. But too often I see him making rookie mistakes. I really like this guy as a backup, spot starter. But I see why he hasn't been able to keep a starting job.
You've seen Orton make veteran plays you just refused to admit it
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you have seen the Bills play the last few weeks right? You have seen zero Touchdowns on offense right? You have seen Kyle Orton look at the DEs and just turtle on the turf right?
If you haven't seen that, then I assume you haven't watched the Bills play and therefore I have no need to argue with you about this.
Ive seen a qb and offense with no minicamps or training camp together struggling to score via pass pass pass . Cutler has been afforded every opportunity and has come up short every single time
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"paying for a guy" is misleading. It's not my money. Were gonna be between 20-30m under the cap this offseason. It's not gonna be that big a deal.
And regardless, the fact is that our other option at QB is Kyle Freaking Orton!!!
It's not that cutler is amazing by any means. He's better than Orton.
And I'm not saying we should make the trade for him. I'm simply arguing the fact that Orton sucks and Cutler is better. If we had Cutler as our QB we probably would have 2 more wins.
but he is not better than Orton with those 21 combined fumbles and picks per season since hes been in Chicago This delusion that we would win more games simply because he is jay Cutler didn't work for the bears and wouldn't work for us
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Everything is predicated on the level our D plays on next year.
If we had Cutler this year, we beat KC,Miami,and Houston and we'd be in the playoffs.
If you had Cutler we would be worse . There is no overcoming nearly 30 turnovers by one player
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All of which he acknowledges in the weekly posts. He is not claiming to be scientific or producing results that are beyond any margin of error. He's saying--follow me here--he literally says that this is what it looks like to him. And it's a starting point for conversation.
Sure we don't know what was supposed to happen or who exactly screwed up or did a good job. But we can get a sense of what went down. And guess what: every conclusion he reached is supported by everyone else. You don't need to know the play call to know Orton missed Woods for an easy first down.
So read the disclaimers and lighten up.
kj
Im not really talking about the OP he always puts in his disclaimer Im talking about everyone who uses this video to jump head first into the blame game depending on which side of the coin they favor .
Now watching the all 22 after watching the game doesn't tell you that the packers were going into the wind in the 1st quarter and Rodgers passes were all over the place so they went run heavy and ran the ball on there last possession not throwing until they got into the redzone and then we gave them a penalty heading into the 2nd quarter and as soon as we switched directions they we went pass heavy again .
On the high throw to Woods and the pick we were throwing into the same wind that had Rodgers missing receivers by 5 yards in the 1st quarter .
im not saying Orton didnt make any bad throws in the game but some of this simply overanalyzed BS
Wow, I guess that thing Orton does where he stares down his receiver and still misses the pass, we can't possibly attribute that to him. How about the slant passes where he hits the receiver on his back shoulder or worse( and these guys still catch it). I guess we can't blame Orton. How about wide open receivers that he doesn't see (When he does try to go through reads) and he checks down. maybe they weren't suppose to be that wide open so he did the right thing by checking down because maybe it was a trick?! Dude....Really?!!!
How can you see WTF his eyes are looking at from your couch ? Every QB misses passes how about putting some context behind some of these claims instead of trying to blame one guy for everything .
I tend to side with the coach in that the offensive woes comes from a bit of everything Orton included I'm not stupid enough to think I can tell him what he should be seeing without even knowing what the damn play call is .
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So any time you ask Orton to pass the ball you are taking a risk. Got it.
Many factors inform a decision to call a particular play or not. Your hackneyed use of the phrase "your personnel dictates your play calling" notwithstanding. Sorry, but you don't have to be a Manning or Brady to make the play Orton missed on. He missed. Badly. On a wide open play. And since we're playing the hindsight game, if he makes that play, you aren't complaining it was the wrong call.
When I can review an All 22 and not see Orton leave a dozen plays on the field, most of them mind-blowingly SIMPLE plays where he misses receivers running wide open, I'll be more critical of Hackett's play design.
GO BILLS!!!
On that play I think you could be reading it wrong . I dont think his intention was to go to Woods he wanted to go to Sammie on the slant but Sammie stopped and he had to get rid of it to Woods . I will have to go back to find it but weve ran that slant to Sammie before in key situations . I have all 22 but I dont talk about it much because it doesnt give you the play calls or adjustments they have made in the huddle or on the sideline . I also have the live game on tape and after that throw that he missed on hes not talking to Woods you see him talking to sammy as he comes back to the and making hand gestures showing that hes supposed to slant in on that play .
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LOL again the fact that you dont know what was called and what was everyones job on each play its hard to say what should have happened . You can always way what YOU WANT to happen but that doesn't mean that's what was actually called .
All 22 is nice but you don't even know if player is supposed to be in that spot but he looks open in hindsight from the birdseye view so obviously he should've been thrown the ball regardless of the play call or actual view from the field
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I think we can all agree that the offense is the unit holding this team back. I think we can also agree that we've had nearly 2 full years of this inept offense. So, Hackett has had 2 years, 4 QBs, 4RBs, fast WRs, shifty WRs, and multiple Linemen. And yet, there is absolutely nothing consistent or good about this offense. No one can even state with any certainty what our offensive philosophy is.
Does anyone really think that we can add a couple of average payers in the off season and suddenly Hackett's design is finally going to come together?
Furthermore, has anyone considered, regarding the all 22s, that opposing defenses have completely figured out our offense, therefore they leave WRs open, because they know exactly where the QB wants to go with the ball? Or when the RB is goign to get it? Or exactly when and where to blitz to throw off the timing. So, yeah, plays look like they're there to be had... but in real time the defense is actually dicatating to our predictable offense.
Thats on point Dan
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Of watching him throw the football. You do know that's how players are evaluated, right?
after 6 years the highest paid player on offense is evaluated by how many WINS he can generate not how sexy you think he looks throwing the football.
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He is better than Orton. Virtually every statistic as well as the eye test tells me that.
Your fantasy team argument makes little sense to me. You try to play it like they're pouring endless amounts of assets into helping Cutler, and not the team. You're also trying to insinuate they hurt the team by getting all these guys for Cutler. Forte wasn't a Pro-Bowler until 2011. He was drafted prior to Cutler being there. Marshall is a great WR, but I think that Sammy will have a very similar career to him. Alshon was a second rounder 3 years ago. Bennet was a nobody in the NFL prior to Cutler, he had 1,500 yards and 9 TD's in his 5 year career before the Bears, numbers that he doubled in 2 years with Cutler, and a little McCown.
So explain this to me. They got all this great talent around Cutler, Alshon became a good WR playing with him, Bennet hit career highs in back-to-back seasons, Forte went to a Pro-Bowl with Cutler at the helm. And now, with their horrific defense, they aren't winning games and it's the "fantasy teams'" fault?
Every statistic of his play surrounded by pro bowlers ? The eye of test of what ? as i said he has the lipstick you like on but hes still a pig
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Cutler moves this team forward because he is better than Orton. That's really all that needs to be said.
This "fantasy team" doesn't make any sense. Did they grab a great #1 WR? Sure. However Alshon Jeffrey was a second rounder, it's not like they used a huge contract on him. Bennett was nothing before Cutler. Forte was there before Cutler. I don't understand the "fantasy team." Are we building a fantasy team around Orton because we have Spiller/Fred, a good #1 WR in Sammy and a second rounder in Woods?
Actually Cutler is no better than Orton he just wears a lipstick that you like but hes still a pig .
Marshall and Jeffrey are two of the best jump ball catchers in the league and coming into the is season were considered a top 5 receiving tandem , Bennett is pretty much a the game guy he was before he met Cutler , which is a top 15 receiving threat at TE , and Matt Forte is a top ten back .
So what about that doesn't make sense ? What else do you need at QB before you can have the responsibility to produce points .
We dont if Spiller will be here ? Fred is gonna be 34 old WTF is wrong with you ? How do you equate what we have to the actual pro bowlers the have ?
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Who else is going to be available? People think that teams are just going to give up a QB. With how hard it is to even find the level of Cutler, teams are not going to let go of their starter.
Going into next year with Orton and EJ is not only a PR nightmare, it is not a good plan if you want this team to buy all in again (The defense)
How is going into next year with Orton and EJ a PR nightmare considering Orton didnt even have a camp ?
What level is Cutler exactly because the Bears have done everything they could over 6 years and they have not found a way to consistently win with him ? The Bears found a way to win consistently with Orton ?
If we finish 10-6 or even 9-7 the goal would be to continue to move forward how does Cutler move this team forward ? The Bears gave him a fantasy team and he took them backward .
The Bears at this point have no choice but to stay with Cutler and then at end of next year get rid of the GM ,coach,and Cutler . The bears fired Lovie Smith after a 10-6 season because everyone felt that Cutler was a "stahhhh" and he didnt know what to do with him .
Jay Cutler has had more help from a organization than I can recall maybe in the last 20 years and couldnt do anything with it . 4 offensive coordinators several qb coaches until they basically let him pick his own . They kept his college receiver Earl bennett around and then went and got Marshall because he was Cutlers buddy . If if everything is constantly changed and moved around to accommodate you over 6 years and then you still cant get it done the problem is probably you .
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Cutler is a better option than any QB we have now or that we can get on the market.
We dont have the option to be picky!
Oh and in regards to how bad he is?
As of today his stats are as follows....
QBR of 89.5 with 3,640 yards passing and 28 TD's
If our QB had those stats we would be in the playoffs this year
CBF
NO we would not be in the playoffs if we had Cutler because you totally ignore the fact that Cutler by himself has 18 picks and 12 fumbles hell we have 20 turnovers total as a team .
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Maybe if they had a top 5 defense that would help.
Or if the offense actually played up to its potential which it never has under Cutler for any length of time . They had a top 5 defense in 2010 and dragged Cutler and the 30th ranked offense to a NFC title game .
They have invested heavily in doing any and everything possible for Cutler to be successful as "the guy" and he has failed to deliver but his personality will never let him just be a game manager and so what are you left with .? I read somewhere that last year the bears averaged 28 ppg overall and only average 21 ppg this year . Jay Cutler has 7 .5 starts and the offense averaged 22 ppg and Mccown in his 4.5 starts averaged 24 ppg . After 6 years and all the offensive changes they know the problem starts with Cutler but I dont think they get rid of him this season
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Minus that time he went to the nfc championship game, or lovies last season when they were 10-6. He hasnt been full on terrible the whole time.
You mean that time the top 5 defense pulled that 30th ranked offense with 28 turnovers to the NFC championship game
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But Orton won't pass more then 15 yards. If you watch the all-22 you can see our receivers open down the filed all day long. I want a gunslinger to connect with Sammy and Woods. Maybe just after 15 years I'm ready for something different then the 3-4 year rebuilding that never ends and I'm ready to make a move. !@#$ing Brady won't even remember our teams name when he retires. But I get what your saying about Orton but answer me this, truthfully, is he a QB that can take us to a superbowl?
You think because Cutler can throw the ball far that means he can take us to the SB ?
You know what the Bears are asking themselves right now ? What else can they do to have some sort of success with Cutler ? They have gotten rid of coaches and built up a fantasy team, around him and they still cannot have any sort of success with Cutler ?
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You can have him. If I were an HC, I wouldn't want that snake anywhere near my lockerroom.
GO BILLS!!!
Except for last year when he delivered an offense that set every important Bear offensive record. He delivered so little they saw fit to extend him with that enormous contract only last January.
GO BILLS!!!
You mean the offense in which Mccown played quite a few games in ? After last year the Bears know the offense can and has been run better which is why Jay is being scrutinized even harder this year
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They needlessly killed any trade value he had. That organization is just stoopid.
he killed his own value with his play the past 6 years
Forte
marshall
Jeffrey
Bennet
and a solid Oline
After seeing what Mccown did last year and the bears averaged 28 ppg last year and now this year they average 21 ppg .
They built everything up around him and he has not delivered
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Bears wont cut Cutler they basically built the entire offense around him and there are no good qbs out there . They hire Harbaugh he waits a year and then they dump Cutler in the meantime they feed Forte next year .
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Holy cow all of this is just false.
Matt Cassell was the starting qb for the Chiefs. He got hurt against the Broncos November 13th at which point Palko took over. Orton joined the team on November 23rd. The coach (Todd Haley) got fired after the December 11th game (3 weeks later). You seriously think that it was because he didn't start the guy who they had just claimed?!?!
I still don't get how this somehow validates Orton. He led the Chiefs offense to 19, 13, and 7 points in that order. So he regressed there as well (heavy sarcasm). He didn't come in and do magical things with the Chiefs he came in and did exactly what Kyle Orton does - plays mediocre.
This is how I know you are full of it and slanting the facts or simply not even understanding what you are looking at
Cassell gets hurt on the Nov 13th
Chiefs lost Nov 7 and the game cassell got hurt in Nov 13th and then proceeded to lose the next game on (Mon) Nov 20 Thats 3 losses in a row now . Most wanted him to start against Pitt on Nov 28 but the coach said no thats 4 losses in a row . They beat the bears and backup Caleb Hanie 10-3 after the coach put in Orton for one play a flea flicker and he hurts his throwing hand . so thats 1-4 and they then gets trounced against the jets the next week and thats 1-5 . They fire Todd haley and name Romeo Crennel coach who immediately names Orton the starter . They then win 2 of the next 3 including beating the Broncos and tebow in Denver and the undefeated packers the lone loss came in OT after the Chiefs had a potential game winning kick blocked at home against raiders.
When Orton was placed on waivers the Bears and Cowboys tried to grab him but the Chiefs were higher on the waiver wire so they got him which caused entire discussion about moving the trade deadline back so as the situation where the Broncos release a player and he gets picked up by a team in the same division who still has a chance to win the division . The Cowboys wanted Orton off waivers which is how he ended up with them after that season.
As for the rest of your post I actually agree with you. The margin of error is very small but that is, to me, in large part, because of Orton's lack of consistency, accuracy, and performance. He isn't the worst qb in the world. I believe yesterday we settled on somewhere between 19 and 22nd best in the league. Unsurprisingly the Bills offense is 23rd in ypg, 19th in passing ypg, and 18th in ppg. Right what you would expect.
The problem is that the passing offense was bad before Orton even going back to last year so I keep asking the same question about has put that the offense should be much improved knowing that the Oline is having serious issues .
last year the offense was 19th in ypg, 28th in passing ypg ,and 21st in ppg but if you never read this board before and read these threads you would think we came into the year as the #1 offense in the league and orton stepped in and its tanked but in reality Orton has stepped in to plug up holes and keep afloat something that for all intensive purposes never existed which is our passing offense .
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Luckily with Orton I don't need to slant the facts. Bad stretches are the norm for Orton. Also the Chiefs won 4 out of 6 before Orton started playing what free fall are you talking about? He led the team to 19, 13, and 7 points it's not like he came in and set the world on fire for them.
The reason I posted what I did earlier is because I thought they correlated with what Kelly and I were discussing. Him falling off a cliff isn't unheard of and what we are seeing this year is him playing to his abilities or even slightly above them. Like I said this isn't bad Kyle Orton this is just Kyle Orton we are watching.
but you did slant the facts and the Chiefs had lost 5 of 6 before they went to Orton because they were starting some guy named palko and most felt they went to orton too late which is why they fired the coach and named Crennel the interim coach who promptly started Orton . But who cares about these facts when you are looking to put your on slant on things .
The problem is consistency there is not one thing that you can point to about that offense before or after Orton that says consistency . So Orton is a guy who took over after some weeks who is trying to find some consistency within himself in a new system meanwhile guys who have been in it since minicamp are still inconsistent and so this is how we end up where we are offensively .
When I listen to the coaches I dont blame hackett for Orton missing throws he has just missed some throws he usually makes . Thats on Orton but there are also killing penalties and negative runs and whole slew of other things going on as well. But when I listen to Marrone you can tell that there are some things we are trying to do offensively that we simply cannot do because of the Oline .
Orton has missed on some throws which decreases our margin of error add the Oline issues which decreases it again ,then the inexperience of our receiving corps, then the lack of a running game , then the the playcalling .
This offense has such a small margin of error right now that its maddening and Orton is just one part of it at this point . We want to take shots down the field but the plays we are calling to setup the looks we want to take those shots against either Orton misses the pass but if he doesnt the Oline gets blown up and if the Oline dont get blown up we get a penalty calling the play back and sometimes they flaty out know the play is coming and stop it cold .
Per Adam Shefter: Bears may have to trade draft pick to get rid of Cut
in The Stadium Wall Archives
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But Orton can and has thrown it deep he just isnt stupid about it . the fact that you see a "game manager type" as not throwing it deep is pretty much the problem.
The last time both guys were full time starters was 2010
Cutler was 4-14 2tds 1 int in passes over 30 yards
Orton was 8-20 4 tds 0 ints in passes over 30 yards
The problem is perception people see the 15 year old pictures of Orton drinking and partying and the beard and the tebow garbage and the assumed well Orton wont go deep but he does. They see Cutler and his physical tools ,hot wife and they get a woody but mentally he has never been able to put it together .
I think the explanation of this was when someone said that Orton wont make catastrophic mistake that kills you so you can game plan and win with him while Cutler is prone to the big mistake so its much harder game plan around those mistakes .