JC2002
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Posts posted by JC2002
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As I have said he is a below average starter.
To me that is lower than league average that is bottom of the league...
They seem like the same thing. I also said in the post you quoted that he ranked somewhere around 19-23 imo. That is bottom of the league and below average. Do you really want to argue semantics here or can we agree that Orton just isn't that good. Not the worst, not the best, and certainly nobody that can lead you to the super bowl.
And all time Bills leader in completion %?! come on man. 64.2 percent while averaging a 30th ranked in the league ypa is something to hang your hat on?
Its not bottom of the league when you come in with no camp that you ignore context to fit your stats into your arguments is the problem .
A below average starter wouldn't have gotten anywhere near close to the production that Orton did with no training camp with this team . A below average starter wouldnt have been able to come off his couch and set the record under any circumstances especially ours .
A team that aint been to the playoffs in a decade talking about SB is ridiculous and at this time embarrassing because lets face how the hell would we know when we just .500 for the first time in forever .
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if only orton would unretire and put this team on his back some more.
He didnt put the team on his back but lets stop talking like dude landed in qb heaven and screwed it up
It would be for 12 games so I will extrapolate out the extra 4 games.
yards he would move up to 14th.
tds he would move to 13th
ints he would go from 20th to tied for 11th (higher number is a bad thing)
As I have said he is a below average starter. Not the worst in the league but nobody I would plan on winning anything such as a playoff game with. Also keep in mind this ended as statistically about the 2nd best season of Orton's career. So this subpar production was about the best we could hope for from him.
Hopefully his true value this year lies in showing EJ how to be a professional qb. The 9-7 was fantastic and the most fun I have had in a long time rooting for this team. That said I am not sad that we are moving on from him.
actually you said
To me that is lower than league average that is bottom of the league...but his play was nowhere close to bottom of the league . So he stepped in with no training camp ,no Oline ,young wideouts ,no running game becomes the Bills all time leader in completion percentage and now somehow its the best we can expect from him ?
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QB is the MOST important and impactful position in TEAM SPORTS, by far. The only one that comes close is a goalie in hockey, and a decent goalie is much easier to find than a decent QB.
If you are unclear about that, take a look at the last 25 SuperBowl champions and the teams they beat and you'll find something close to 95% had franchise caliber QB's under center.
Ask yourself who was the Bills QB's for their only championship seasons and only Super Bowl appearances.
Take a look at the 12 QB's on the 12 playoff teams this year. Brady, Roethlisberger, Dalton, Flacco, Luck, Manning, Romo, Stafford, Rodgers, Wilson, Newton, Lindley -- 11 out of 12.
There is no I in TEAM but their should be a competent "QB" in it.
How many of those teams have NO Oline ? starting wideouts that are 21 and 22 yrs old ,and no running game ?
You want Orton to provide results equal to those qbs in situations that none of those qbs are close to playing in .
DENIAL..
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Sure do... Orton ranks
QBR: 25th in the league
Yards: 22nd
ypa: 30th
rating: 19th
tds: 19th
ypg: 16th
To me that is lower than league average that is bottom of the league...
thats because you dont take into consideration that they were done with no camp and only 12 games. he wouldve ended up at around 12th in yards and 12th in tds in a full season
Okay .. I admit that all of what I wrote was a tad harsh.
I will say this in seriousness, however ... I believe that the Bills would have at least 9, possibly 10, wins had EJ never gotten benched.
I agreed with the decision to bench him then; and I still think it was a good idea for his long-term development.
But I do not believe for one second that Orton made the offense better. And I do think he was terrible in most of the games he played in a Bills uniform.
I'm ecstatic that the Bills won yesterday; I think that first quarter was great football. But I don't think for one second that Orton was good yesterday; I thought he was horrible. Again. And the defense/special teams won the game. Again. That happens a lot in the NFL and I'll take a win no matter which part of the team is mostly responsible.
But I'm not going to sit here and "thank" Orton for doing such a great job, because the fact is that he stunk for the majority of the time he was on the field.
I can only hope that his short tenure did something for EJ. Because I do believe that EJ is the future of this team.
Actually he did and I love how you conveinetly have a mental block on the 2 game losing streak we were on when he first took over
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Orton playing behind one of the very worst O lines in the NFL this season
With an offensive coordinator who called for 579 passes vs 402 rushes, and against some of the best defenses in the NFL
*The most experienced starting WR on the team was 2nd year player Robert Woods
Kyle Orton 3,018 yards, 18 TD's, 10 INT's QBR 7-5
To the fans thinking the team is better off without him
lol this is gonna be a interesting off season
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Are we willing to pay something like six-year, $46.8 million contract with $13 million guaranteed to a guard ? Levitre got something like that from the Titans and he had never made the pro bowl so Im sure lupati will be looking for more than that . We may have to try for Boling but he may be looking something in line with that as well .
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Beckham has a QB and OC that at least try to throw him the ball. It's a shame that the Bills didn't try to get Sammy his 1,000 yds. Beckham had 10 catches today. I don't think Sammy had 10 targets.
they are also a team that has won 6 games . I cant believe people would trade in our first winning season in forever so one guy can pad his stats in a losing season .
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The bottomline is Bellicheck was average before Brady, Pete Carrol struck gold with Wilson, Shanny was nothing after Elway, etc. etc. etc. The teams that win and are routinely in the playoffs have QB's in place that can make the throws consistently, find the open receivers, and are legit NFL QB's. Are all the teams in the playoffs coached by geniuses or piloted by top 5 QB's? No, but they also arent trying to win with below .500 QB's, young receivers, and a porous O line.
This is load of crock the reasons those teams stayed as good as they have is because they didnt buy into this nonsense that you are selling and instead built solid TEAMS that had DEPTH ,and were good on both sides of teh ball and and special teams . They didnt say its all about one guy nowhere close to it they went out of their way to have teams that were not all about one guy
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Wrong. The "loser mentality" is when you get excited over winning a meaningless game against
a backup rookie qb instead of being smart and using real game situations to develop your players so you can climb out of this playoff drought.
I have a few thousand posts, and 99% of them are very optimistic. I just think we need to use every precious minute of regular season games to our advantage for the future when we're out of playoff contention.
I see what some people mean by saying EJ hasn't practiced with the first team in months so it would be a waste of time.
a loser mentality is when you lose so much you actually believe that losing develops players and there is actually some thing known as meaningless games .
Saying that we dont have to win this game is exactly a loser would say and exactly how you end up 15 years without the playoffs .
Every game is a must win for a winner and every situation is all about doing one thing winning the game you are playing not games you havent played yet . You spend too much trying to win future games and you end up 15 years down the line having won nothing ...oh wait
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BACKWARDS! WTF?!? Likewise never seen anything like that. Not even Pop Warner. Why? Because the options are UPFIELD!
Bad enough his footwork is worse than a toddler, BACKWARDS???
this is the epitome of silliness
If Orton is slipping the tackle of defender who should be blocked by CJ when he rights himself hes looking for CJ because a simple flip or shuffle pass to his right side was the simplest pass to make . The problem was CJ had already given up on the play .
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Accurate. That's why he was benched.
That said, Orton is such a kitty cat. I've never seen a QB look backwards like that before.
If CJ makes himself available Orton simply pitches him the ball thats simply football and awareness on CJs part considering the defender was on the ground at that time
Ugh. I really hope they have another plan
Considering Orton was at 3000 yards at the 12 games mark 18 tds and 64% completion mark and was not even in training camp minicamp with us .We had Oline issues and no running game and youth and inexperience at the wideout spots .
Shouldnt you be going ughh if that plan wasnt at least considered now something better might come along but it has to be considered
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and how the $%$#@#$ does Derek Carr score 27 points against this team ???????
Well thats just it a SB caliber defense treats them all the same . THEY HATE THEM ALL . They get up for the bad ones just as much for the good ones and when you dont take that approach you are prone to get beat by the Tannehills and Carrs of the NFL.
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Do you have a link? Orton averages 6.7 ypa this year. He averages 6.6 for his career. The olne hs not been perfect but there's been plenty of times when Orton has time and chooses to dump the ball off.
Blaming the oline is such a cop out and is ignoring the real problems. The OC and QB aren't good enough.
In a good passing offense with a decent line he averaged well over 7 ypa
Our offense sucked before Orton got here
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but he "commands the huddle"
and is
22nd in yards
15th in completion percentage
18th in td passes
19th in QBR
29th ypa
this is in 11 games so far with no off season with this team so what players could have came in and done better off the street thats not even taking into account yet the fact that Oline is garbage and we had no running game and he took over one of the worst passing attacks in in the league .
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No coach has every won consistently with Kyle Orton at QB
Lovie Smith did using the same principles that Marrone is trying to implement as Orton was 21-12 with the Bears using defense,special teams, running game,
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He is a veteran QB, who had a couple good games before DCs around the league remembered who he was and how he was being used by Hackett:
Guess what Bridgewater, Hoyer and Carr all had in common?
24 Teddy Bridgewater, MIN 41.5 5.6 -22.4 3.2 27.8 489 37.6 -1.4 49.0 25 Brian Hoyer, CLE 39.3 -3.7 -16.1 1.9 21.4 538 32.0 -10.9 43.1 26 Derek Carr, OAK 29.2 -0.5 -10.2 0.7 19.2 656 34.7 -17.6 40.9
They all had more support than Orton did ?
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Pulling out fantasy standings results is ridiculous. You don't KNOW about 2-6 and you don't KNOW about 5-10. You are cherry picking. Why don't we just speculate that Jordy Nelson catches a 94 yd bomb for td. Or Alex Henery makes a field goal. Why not factor in some of the Orton sacks EJ wouldn't have. Why not factor in Spiller getting hurt. Let's factor in McKelvin, and Searcy getting hurt. Let's factor in Sammy not being hurt. Did anyone see how stupid this arguement is. If you want to speculate. Say you think. Not that you know. Because you don't.
None of that **** matters because what you fail to want to acknowledge is that EJ had lost the team so it wouldnt have gotten better at all . Thats the dumb crap you try and convince yourself of . Its not Cherry picking if you are 2-2 with @ Lions ,Patriots and @Jets coming up . Thats put us at 4 losses in a row before heading to NY in the midst of a tailspin and one big battle of who is worse EJ or Geno looming in the media . Orton despite his crapped stopped the bleeding if only temporarily but if we dont make that move no saw us coming out of that slide at all because EJ had shown us nothing to convince anyone otherwise which is why the change was made in the first place. This rewriting of history that EJ somehow wouldve stopped the 2 game win streak is desperate ,laughable ,and based on absolutely nothing but a dislike of Orton . Disliking Orton is not enough to justify claims of EJ somehow turning the ship around
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Personally I'd prefer a coach, and organization, that looks further ahead than one meaningless game. There is no benefit to starting Orton other than the very small chance of winning said meaningless game. Orton is well known, and does not need the additional experience. Manuel absolutely needs live reps. Unless, of course, the evaluation of Manuel has already been made by the Bills and they have no intention of him being the starting QB next season either.
Its not about developing Orton but it is about continuing to develop Sammie,Woods,and Hogan. They have all progressed very well this season and considering that Orton is still under contract and could very well be the starter next year as well why wouldn't you continue building on what they have started
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Tired of seeing screen grabs like this one:
Im tired misleading screenshots but it doesn't seem to stop the from doing it .
What this screen shot doesn't show is that its a 1st down play after they had just picked up a first down . The reason everyone comes open like that is because the receiver is running a out and up and Orton throws a pump fake on the out that draws everyone and then then tries to him down the sideline which is how the play was drawn up .
Now if you want to talk strategy you could say that the OC or someone in the booth should see that on film and try and come back to something similar if the Raiders are biting on the pump fake that hard. You could show them the same look and use that pump fake again and then try and come back Sammie on the post .
But then if people were not simply looking at this stuff to try and justify there hate they could see that on the very next series after that they start using the pump fake one way trow another one and fake hand offs and move the ball with the ease . On that Chandler td the very next series was a fake pass to the right side and throw it right back up the middle for the td . So while this play was not successful they used what they saw in it to score a td the next series
There were issues but this play wasn't it and is more indictment of the people who want to bash people based on wild assumptions.
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If this coaching staff ever thought Orton was an answer, they should be fired right away. We have 9 years of him not being the answer.
He went 6-0 with Denver and somehow missed the playoffs.
Yeah, this means nothing. What happened against Miami, Orton and Manuel's only common opponent?
We score tds in every one of EJ's starts. We failed to do so in 2 of Orton's.
What he did in Denver means nothing here ? You seem to be stuck in 5 years ago
It doesn't matter if they have common opponents if one guy had minicamp and training camp and the other guy steps in week 4 again some of you have a very serious problem with the facts and context.
We lost both CJ and Fred and started throwing 39 times per game but EJ wouldve suddenly went Shane Falco and starting lightning it up in your history rewrite .
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I feel confident we would be no worse than 7-9 with EJ. Go through the schedule and see what games we would have won and lost with him qll season. I did a month or so ago and i came up with 7-9 for EJ and 8-8 for orton. Not tryin to jump your discussion, its just what i have been thinkin
We would be 5-10 at this point if we had stayed with EJ and 2-6 at the bye which means season would've been over weeks ago . There is no indication EJ or the team would've recovered from the the tailspin they were starting after Houston. To assume the way EJ was playing that he would've made it past the bye simply because some of you hate Orton is ridiculous.
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Offensive line is way worse. Kyle at least only ruins the pass offense. The offensive line ruins our pass offense AND run offense. While up until this week our D has looked better week to week. The offensive line is meanwhile getting worse.
Either someone found us a bad mess of offensive linemen, or someone is doing a bad job of coaching them up.
Simple and pedictable offense isn't helping either.
How did Orton ruin a passing offense that came into this season ranked 28th ?
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Then explain Orton's 9 years of average to poor qb play. Or his career high 21 tds.
It will also explain our not making the playoffs for 15 years and our high in wins during that time being 9 .
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Or, once opposing D coordinators had some film on him and took away his comfort zones, he lacked the athleticism or the will to be successful.
or once they realized we couldn't run the ball or block all that well they started playing the pass all all the time
I don't even think he used to be more consistently average. This is his 2nd best season statistically so he's not playing any "worse" than he used to. I think his first couple games were a mirage he just happened to put a couple games together. The last 5 games he has regressed to his normal average self. I remember listening to the radio after his 4th game and he was on pace, if he played a full season, for something like 36 TDs and 4000+ yards. Thats not Kyle Orton, he has NEVER been that good. So those first 4 games were were got evened out by these bad ones.
This is the same Kyle Orton. He just isn't good enough.
To be honest its the same Bills we are not good enough
Orton Retires (per twitter)
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I didnt say the QB is not important where did I say that ? My argument is that we didn't surround our qb with the same things that those teams have and still demand the same results .
Pats have 15 years of continuity ...Orton wasnt even in our training camp
Seattle has the best rushing attack in the league
Carolina is in the NFC south
now you tell me how I can read this board and see these type of statements all the time and now that cant be considered trolling .
We have no Oline but we should be running like the Seahawks and passing like the Patriots ?