The Frankish Reich
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Posts posted by The Frankish Reich
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As it's October im not sure why the price tag matters. Is he better value sitting?
Possibly. But if some other team that still thinks they can compete for the playoffs is hurting at WR and willing to take on that contract, you gotta pull the trigger. No way I'd want to go into 2015 with 10 million bucks guaranteed tied up in Orton + Williams. This is the kind of dumb contract that bad teams make that really harms their ability to get better where they need to get better.
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I haven't read anything beyond this thread.
Is the cause and effect clear? Which came first, Mike Williams "acting up" or being deactivated?
I think it's as simple as: he's not as good as Sammy, Goodwin is cheaper, Hogan appears able to fill a different/complementary role, the Bills have a big case of buyer's remorse.
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The linked AP article says Williams is guaranteed $5.2 million next year. We simply can't afford that. Forget draft picks or players in return -- this was a dumb signing from the start, a salary dump to undo the contract damage is worth it even if the only thing we get in return is added payroll flexibility for next year.
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Williams got $9.4 million guaranteed on his 5 year Bills contract. Not sure how much is left on the guaranteed money, but if it's more than a trivial amount I fully understand why they'd want to move him. With gaping holes on the offensive line and secondary, with no clear QB or lead RB in place for next year (this is CJ's walk year, Fred is 33, that leaves ... Bryce Brown?), I don't know why you'd want to continue to pay Williams big money to be the 3rd or 4th receiver while the likes of Erik Pears play every down. So if someone will take on that contract, goodbye Mike.
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Pegula bought the Bills, but the Patriots still own this team.
Sad but true. Time for someone to post the Jim Mora "playoffs?" rant. Any talk of playoffs is premature until we can keep up with the Pats, at least at home.
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The truth is hard to admit sometimes -- they're better than us. Still. And the overwhelming reason is Tom Brady. Call him soft, call him Marcia, call him what you want, he's a Hall of Famer, one of the all time greats, still (unfortunately) playing at a very high level, and middling Kyle Orton or Ryan Fitzpatrick types, or young guys who aren't blue chip prospects like Losman or Edwards or EJ don't beat him unless he beats himself. Which happened once or twice this year, but hasn't happened very often over the last 14 seasons.
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Lots of energy out of Pegula. God that was painful.
Or was it kind of refreshing to see such an unassuming billionaire? Maybe a little of both.
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This game was hard to watch. The offensive line seems to be the weak link for the offense. Watkins had no effect on the game. Makes me think the Bills should have drafted line help instead of Watkins.
I don't want to rip Watkins, and it's way too early to judge that trade. But one of my fears was that Watkins is not the "big receiver" that can't be defended against. We saw that again with Gronk today -- there's just nobody who can match up with him. There are really good corners who can match up with Watkins.
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Kyle Orton was just as bad as the offensive line today. Horrible turnovers. Inexcusable sacks.
A couple weeks ago there was a thread titled "So What Does EJ Do Well?" I thought long and hard. I said: "protects the ball." Particularly avoiding the strip sack. Which is faint praise, but as we saw today, it's worth something ...
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Same old Pats, same old Bills. Our playoff hopes depended on the Patriots falling back into the middle of the pack. Looked like a reasonable possibility a couple weeks ago. Doesn't look like it now.
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Considering we have a front 5 plus te and rb chip blocking and still having issues keeping a pocket, I don't see a 4 wr set until the guards get better/replaced.
I do agree a 4 wr set would help cj but unless the blocking holds he will still do his typical 1 yard, try to bounce it out, end of play.
Exactly. The play of the O line has been by far the biggest disappointment this year. If they can pull it together enough to become acceptable -- kind of low average in quality -- this team, with Orton, is really solid-to-excellent in all other phases. But until that happens, we'll see more TEs staying in to chip, more Fred (or Summers? Dixon?) staying in on passing downs to block, etc. I hope it does come together because that Sammy-Woods-Goodwin-Williams thing would be something to see if Orton could ever get enough time. (And let me throw this out there: Orton will make nice use of Hogan. I know he gets beat up here, but Hogan is a poor man's Welker in waiting. OK, a homeless man's Welker. But still, we need that slot guy)
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Just heard Schlereth on espn: Bills went to Orton because they really believe they can win the division this year, and a veteran QB gives them the best chance. OK, so far, so good. But then this: "they have a good defense, a really good running game and a good offensive line." Oh. Nevermind. So much for the "experts." Picks the Pats in a close one. I guess I agree 2/3 with him.
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Ok, so just to clarify.....Orton was unlucky for the previous 18 games in Denver?
Orton is 36-35 over 71 starts in his career. He was ridiculously lucky to go 10-5 as a starter on a team with a very good defense in his rookie year in Chicago. The Bears saw that, and he lost his starting job the next year (how many 10-5 starters don't start the next year?). In his first season in Denver he started 6-0. That wasn't a very good team. I should remind you that the Bills came into Mile High the previous season and beat Shanahan/Jay Cutler/etc. That probably was the last straw that got Shanahan fired and Cutler traded (for Orton). And that Trent Edwards led Bills team had nothing to play for while Shanahan was fighting to make the playoffs. I would call that 6-0 start preposterously lucky. And it all ended as quickly as it started. Orton wasn't better or worse, his luck just turned. They went to Tebow at the end of that season because that was McDaniel's boy. And he sucked. The next year Orton and the Broncos started poorly again. Back to Tebow, this time with John Fox letting Mike McCoy getting really inventive with the read option. And it worked, for a little while, with some lucky bounces (and a much better defense) helping. But the Broncos saw what Tebow was and wasn't, and correctly jumped on the Peyton Manning opportunity when it popped up. And then Orton went 2-1 as a starter (299 and 300 yards passing against the Packers and Raiders) on a not very good KC team that had gone 5-8 without him, then ending with Orton "beating" the Tebow Broncos. Then he sat behind Romo for 2 years, starting the last game against the Eagles and playing pretty much exactly like the Romo Cowboys, throwing for 358 yards with 2 picks and 2 TDs and losing a close one. The casual fan would say something like, "Orton was really good as a game manager his rookie year, then defenses seemed to figure him out and he sucked, but then he adjusted to what defenses were doing and showed he could rack up some big numbers." And the casual fan would be wrong. Watching him the truth is "same old Kyle Orton." A mid-level QB who can win on a team with a good defense and good supporting offensive players, but who can't turn a crap team into a winner." So if we are in fact a team with a good defense and good supporting offensive players .... go get 'em Kyle! (oh, but that offensive line ...)
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And Heath Evans says he may have a good game or two and then revert back to the norm, which I assume means not good.
Of course both these guys are Pats after all so maybe they are concerned that Orton will be a major equalizer in considering just who gets to win the Division.
That's what I suspect actually.
I disagree about Orton being inconsistent. Yes, he has games with good results and games with bad results. Most of that is luck and the level of the competition. But you pretty much get the same guy every game -- same strengths, same weaknesses. I think that was true of Fitz too. It doesn't seem to be true of some other QBs who appear to get rattled. Unfortunately, that was EJ (he's young, it happens, he may get over it).
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"Orton is the fifth NFL quarterback since 1960 to record a 300-yard passing game with five teams in his career joining Kerry Collins, Steve Deberg, Gus Frerotte, and Vinny Testeverde."
He seems to fit in pretty naturally with this bunch. Hopefully he ends up his career better than all of them and takes us far.
This is interesting. Why? Because all of these guys had their moments, most of them late in their careers:
Kerry Collins: 12-3 as a starter for a team with a good defense (Titans) when he was 36.
Steve DeBerg: 11-5 and 10-5 seasons as a starter for a team with a good defense (KC) when he was 36 and 37.
Gus Frerotte: 9-6 for a team with a good defense (Miami) when he was 34
Vinny: 12-1 for the Jets at the age of 35; 9-7 and 10-6 at ages 37-38 (I can't remember if those were really good defenses)
So hey, it happens. Did any of these guys win a Super Bowl? Of course not. But after 15 years, I'll take "make the playoffs." Hell, I'll even take "play meaningful games in late December."
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"Orton is the fifth NFL quarterback since 1960 to record a 300-yard passing game with five teams in his career joining Kerry Collins, Steve Deberg, Gus Frerotte, and Vinny Testeverde."
He seems to fit in pretty naturally with this bunch. Hopefully he ends up his career better than all of them and takes us far.
That's a pretty good bunch by recent Bills standards.
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NoSaint, Charles Romes, good comments. I think we differ on whether the switch to Orton (or even signing Orton) was smart, but we all agree on what he is.
There is one journeyman who became league MVP, Gannon
Morton was a journeyman who made the super bowl.
Plunkett was a castoff backup who won two super bowls.
Hostetler was a limited backup who won the Super Bowl
Rypien was a journeyman player with one great season.
Humphries and O'Donnell and Eason made the super bowl. Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Williams owns the best Super Bowl quarter of all time. Lots of QB of the ilk of Orton have done well.
Thanks ... some good examples. Of course, we tend to remember the successes and forget the failures. Off the top of my head: Bubby Brister, Mike Tomczak, Vince Ferragamo (of the Bills period) ... I mentioned Cassel, Chad Henne, Fitz (quietly having an awful season)
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You sure that it's not...
His rookie year had his best record at 10-5 but he had the lowest qb rating of all qualifying qbs
They then moved grossman back to 1 and signed Brian griese (real shiny) to supplant him at #2
Went 9-7, 8-8, 4-12 and 1-4
Then kc didn't hold onto him and his bestFA offer was to back up a firmly entrenched starter....
He's a decent player but let's not pretend he's great and purely a result of 2 bad GM decisions
No Saint, that's about right. Brian Griese is actually a really good comparable. Of course, so was Alex Smith up until his last full Niners year. But so was, for example, Matt Moore. Or Chad Henne. Or as people have said, Rich Gannon. Or maybe ... Ryan Fitzpatrick (although Orton has a stronger resume at the time of taking over the Bills QB job). Or Rex Grossman. Or Matt Cassell. These are all competent NFL QBs, kind of the 25th - 45th best QBs in the world at any given moment. That's why they tend to alternate between starting jobs and being the veteran backup. That's pretty damn good to be in the top 30 or so in something in the entire world. And sometimes they catch fire late like Gannon or Alex Smith, but sometimes their skills erode and they fall off a cliff like Chad Henne. (The team around him may have something to do with that) Orton could have a nice 2-3 year run with a strong defensive team with some nice offensive weapons. Or he could fizzle out by Game 10. Who knows? I say it was worth a try since EJ was not showing any improvement since his first NFL start.
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The only place he's ever really been dumped was Denver. Chicago traded him for Cutler who, at the time, was considered by many to be a top 10 QB coming off a huge statistical season (arguably the best of his career) after only 3 years in the league. The thing in Denver was complicated and weird.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not declaring him a franchise QB just yet, but I don't think his history precludes that. He's shown to be the kind of guy who gets better with practice, and if he shows to be a top 20 QB I think we could be legit contenders for the next several years.
Yeah, for those of us who saw a lot of the Broncos, the Orton years are forever associated with the mess made by Josh McDaniels. And that mess was still well in place when Tebow took over for Orton.
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Maybe he just got the shaft because he's goofy looking and he party's. Sounds like a perfect buffalo guy to me.
True. And the thing is he's gotten goofier looking year by year. Weird, but I don't recall him being known as a big partier in his Denver days. Maybe those pics are really old?
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There is a difference in Fitz and Orton. Orton can make every throw. Not the biggest arm, but he can throw outside the #s, Fitz could not.
But Fitz is more mobile. Still, I like Orton, and I'm in the rare minority who thought he kind of got the shaft in Denver. That was a pretty bad football team that Tebow took over and then got pretty lucky with. Orton is no long term answer because (1) he's 31; (2) he's Kyle Orton. But could we make the playoffs with him? Sure. We're one Tom Brady injury away from being the favorites.
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Great post as always.
Spiller: I think that with Orton in we'll see Hackett start to use him more like Chan used him -- screens, getting the ball in open space, etc. The "we'll run him till he throws up" thing was stupid to begin with. He's not that kind of back. But neither is, say, Darren Sproles, and nobody would say he's useless.
Orton: took some huge heat in the first quarter and looked as bad as EJ. But unlike EJ, he didn't get rattled. He stood in there and made some throws. I was thinking about this -- 3 or 4 years ago I thought of him as no better or worse than Alex Smith. The last couple years my stock line has been, "just put Alex Smith on this club and we're a playoff competitor." So .... maybe?
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On CJ: I think we saw the beginning of the return to Chan's usage of him. He (and Fred) worked a couple nice looking screens today. With EJ at QB and inexperienced (or crappy and inexperienced) guards, that kind of fell by the wayside last year and this year. CJ is still a valuable commodity, but I do agree that we simply don't need to see him running between the tackles much anymore -- go back to viewing him as an outside option and try to get him the ball in space.
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Just reminds me of the Trent - to - Fitz switch. Orton may not be a world beater, but we went from a guy who was extremely tentative like Edwards to a guy who just doesn't seem scared in Orton. And I've seen a lot of Orton over the years living in Denver. Say what you will about him, he's tough -- EJ likely would have folded after that awful offensive start - O line like a sieve again in the first quarter - but Kyle hung in there and got it done.
Mike Williams exploring trade
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Or the money to go out and get a quality guard next season. Unfortunately I don't see any realistic chance of a substantial upgrade at guard this season.