ExiledInIllinois
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Posts posted by ExiledInIllinois
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It sure does. Unfortunately, the "well, it's not coming today so let's worry about something else" mentality is a normal human reaction, and it is practically dogma for government.
My point of course was that the morons crying about Bush's levee funding are completely missing the point (as usual) that the size and scope of any project that would have upgraded the entire system to withstand Cat 5 storms would take billions of dollars and decades to complete (as the article correctly points out). And that was an elephant in the room that has been ignored by everyone who had the power to change it for as long as anyone can remember.
The Article clearly shows the Corps' one way thinking.
The project has got to start somewhere?
My whole point was that Bush was the unlucky dog who bought the lemon.
Of course, I am not blaming him solely. The USACE bears a huge burden for not swaying him and breaking the past cycle.
Bush's watch is on the "breakdown point"... If he would have been doing things to reverse the actions of the last 30 years ago, I could let him off the hook.
GWB's fault is that he played along with the same game... Possibly accelerating these existing problems with the cuts.
The wheel chair was headed off the cliff to begin with... He gave it that extra spiteful push never thinking it would go over on his watch. Well, it did George!
He wasn't even trying... Even making things worse.
You don't drive a beater 100 mph down the highway and not put oil in it.
Not sure the time line... Didn't he have the outs with the former sec. of Army? He then replaced him with his boy.
Stuff like that strongly dictates Corps policy.
I have been posing this question for a week now.
Do you think the massive cuts to the NO District Corps last year possibly took it toll on levee maintainence?
Nobody is mentioning it. The storm is clouding the issue (GWB best scapegoat).
The pumps failing after the surge washed over and before the breaks points to something other than the "storm."
If everything was working fine... Could the levees have handled it and not failed completely?
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People forget that Katrina spared NOLA the brunt of the storm... Actually NO did quite well considering.
The city flooded about 80% because of levee breaks... That I still question if the strom fully caused. The French Quarter and CBD was spared the brunt of this flooding being situated on higher ground near the east bend in the river.
Nothing (electrically) is underground in NOLA... I take everything is "overhead service."
Still remarkable though.
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Who exactly are these "reasonable people" and what support do you have for that claim? My sister in law was rescued from a flooded section of the city within 48 hours of the storm hitting, so no, the federal government wasn't 24 hours late.
She also saw the crimes being committed and who was doing it. As did anyone who was watching CNN as they interviewed looters coming out of the sneaker stores. Any 'reasonable people' will certainly agree on who was committing the crimes.
What are you trying to say here?
Your sister-in-law probably had special priority status?
Who? The looters? The rapists? Etc...
And of course as a reansonable person would do, she saw what was going on and ran the other way.
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Exactly - I was in NO on that Saturday and I see it this way as well. The mandatory evacuation order came AFTER:
1. Almost all gas stations in the city were closed
2. All but one airline had cancelled their Sunday flights out of New Orleans. Why did Delta cancel all their flights after 2pm on Saturday - a full 50 hours before the storm was due? Then, why did AA cancel all flights after 7:15am on Sunday morning - 24 hours before the storm? etc. etc. The airline's decisions to start canceling so early caused thousands of tourists to be stranded.
3. All but one rental car agency had closed their facilities - their employees went home to make plans to evacuate.
4. Most of the city buses had stopped running - again, their employees had gone home to deal with their own families.
The local officials did a great job of standing in front of TV cameras telling people to leave the city. But there was NO DAMN PLAN to offer any method of conveyance to the tourists or the poor.
Emergency plans must come from the local level first.
I am not trying to slam you Aussie... You forget this is America... We only help AFTER the tragedy... Before the crisis, it will cost you!
What you say appears true. Another conundrum. A riddle that appears to be valid one way only to come up invalid all other ways.
Here is a plan... Why didn't they just over-build the levees?
Can the local authorites tell Delta to fly, rental car agencies to open, and gas stations to sell gas?
I agree about the bus thing... Then...
Anything would have been better... Even if they would have put the buses loaded on a gridlocked interstate trying to get out before the storm.
When the storm hit... At least all the bodies would have been in close proximity.
The ones (buses) that didn't get hit by the storm could have driven around in circles until they pumped out NO. (Sean Penn take note!!)
Just as you can tell Delta to fly, gas stations to sell gas, and rental car agencies to stay open... You can surely tell some other area in some other state to take your 100,000k residents.
Just call it the "NOLA Magical Mystery Tour."
Side note... People call a PFD (personal floatation device) a "life-jacket"... I disagree, it is a PFD, it is not necessarily going to save your life.
The buses were exactly that.
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Thanks.
Keep all the great work! I am glad somebody else is work 24/7.
We have a ravaged gulf coast and a major American city that has been lost physically, environmentally and spirtually!
It better be impressive, as a proud American I would expect nothing but the best.
Look at it from the big picture and the response is just awesome.
From the individual human element, hurry up with that water... I am dying here.
Why not the venom?
As an American, I expect everything short of a picnic.
The NOLA side of this tragedy was very avoidable.
The sad part is, us average American taxpayers will be paying a lot more now than if we would have made an investment in preventive maintainence.
Again... Keep up the great work!
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But my compartmentalization idea wasn't meant to provide safe haven. It was meant to slow city-wide flooding (or even stop it), trading portions of the city for time to organize a proper response. This walled-up "safe haven" idea sounds like just the opposite, trading most of the city to keep a portion of it dry. There's no particular reason to think it would solve the problem they had: that things went so bad so fast that in the absence of a coherent plan (or even an incoherent half-assed one) no one had any opportunity to react. You've still got all the problems you had at the Superdome - isolation, infrastructure damage (unless you're postulating encompassing all municipal services inside "The Citadel"), supply stockpiling or lack thereof - but on an even greater scale, enough so that it's not completely unrealistic to postulate that such a solution could cause even greater problems than the existing situation did. The simple fact is that modern cities, unlike medieval cities centered on walled castles, aren't designed to withstand a siege for any length of time. Back then people actually stockpiled...nowadays, it's an "on demand" just-in-time-delivery world. In short, I still don't see how there's any way that would work.
Why so negative?
Better than nothing.
Like getting everybody to another place OUTSIDE the city is a possibility.
So basically you are saying no local plan would work.
The on-demand part you hit the nail on the head.
That is were the FRP comes. NOLA is unlike any other place and depends on that outside help.
NOLA in this scenario is 100% certain to be overwhelmed in it's state and local capacities.
It couldn't have hurt.
Couple the wall plan with an on-demand FRP... What's the argument?
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Hey... What can I say. Everybody is building "short."
But, then you guys scream (okay not you CTM) when the 20 Amp Brigade comes shuffling into town.
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I'm a conservative and i will say it....i think what mother Bush said was an embarrassment. but i will also add....that my guess is that the Presidents parents are not out and about trying to patch up his image any more now then Bush Sr. was when he was traveling all over India 9 months ago.
That is what I don't get. Why do they find the need to patch up GWB's image? How old is the guy?
Do you think it enables him to be a continual eff-up?
The day is gonna come for me as a parent where I will have to say: "After all these swimming lessons, you gotta swim on your own kido!"
It is like GWB's got his own personal set of Jesse Jacksons. That being Sr., Babs and Laura.
What does he do? Kick the cat when he gets home?
And I always thought of myself as a liberal.
Don't you just love stupid questions?
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New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin has approved the forced removal of New Orleans residents today, per CNN.
If you ask me, this, among other things that have happened, has come a couple of days too late. I was watching a "live rescue" attempt last night on MSNBC. Turns out, after all the effort of the USCG crew, he decided to stay...all that time wasted, effort expended, risk taken...now they have to go back there and force him. This could get interesting. We've seen forced evacuations before (just recently, in fact), but I know I've never seen one done in several feet of water. A person who wanted to be trouble could cause major problems to air/boat crews trying to forcibly remove them...it's not like they can just drag them down the street...This could be interesting.
This is necessary, but it's going to be rough on the rescue crews...
I agree.
We must also think that any pre-hurricane plan would have had to deal with this issue.
The day of reckoning for dealing with these issues is here for NOLA and the local authorites.
As much as I can blame them, I can see why they wanted to stick their head in the sand... In a way... Maybe that is why I haven't been as vocal towards pinning blame at that level.
What a cluster eff this has become!
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What the hell are you talking about???? Although I have been to my fair share of demonstrations, exclusively in my youth in Buffalo (30 years ago ) I'm sure that you are confusing me with the same person, (people), that Eryn, BiB, and other sane members of the conservative community here have.
Am I upset, yes I am, am I incenced, yes I am, however it's very disheartening to see people like CD, and you attacking in such a Richio manner. It's hard to watch Mr. Bush stumbling for words again, it's hard to watch even Scarborough, Sheppard Smith, Giraldo, all saying when will this admin. get it's act together and attack this problem?
There was some time ago a BadThings (I think from the NW/Portland, Ore area??) here that I think he is confusing you with?
??
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I am not sure if you will find this... It was a big picture in the Chicago Tribune.
They showed a guy mowing his lawn (what ever couple square inches of wasteland there was).
It said that he wanted to restore things back to routine.
WTF?
My partner here said: "Take a closer look at the photo, tell me what is wrong with it."
I looked at first and couldn't find a thing (outside the couple square inches of wasteland he was mowing)... My co-worker said look closer, c mon!... So I did.
On the handle of the mower was a tag with the price on it!... Looked like the thing came right off the showroom floor!
You make the call!
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Because everyobody involved knows they can be the scapegoat. On the Federal level, it's the process - not personalities. It took 9/11 to try to change some things, and to this day many are still being fought. That is not an administration issue, either - it's our government, the way they do things. We have lots of laws, and lots of rice bowls. It's going to take Katrina to relook and rethink how other things get done. People are now doing the best they can, I don't think anyone really grasps the scale.
Wow... Nice... Very nice post!
Depends how things go here and where I stand in regards to the immediate staffing mission here at the time, I volunteered to go down there and help with the repair and clean-up.
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Is this "closer to happening than you think" being judged by the amount of exterior membrane that tore away?
Unless you heard something else. I was under the impression that, structurally the things is still sound and didn't suffer one bit (except the waterproofing membrane)?
Any links to where it might have collapsed?
People where moved within the concourses... Would they have collapsed?
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Fake-Fat-Sunny
didn't want to get too long-winded, especially when I'm home dealing with water problems of my own today, on both input (Pipe running in from well leaks) and output (effluent pump for my septic system died). Trust me, compared with all this sub-board is about I'm not complaining, I'm just saying I didn't have time (or inclination, really) to ramble...
Oh... I like FFS, he is so rational.
I am just trying to point out the political trick-bag NOLA has been put into. Stuff like this bothers the heck out of me.
I'll just agree to disgree. The federal government should be more responsible for this mess given what NOLA brings to the nation economically.
Hope your water woes get healed!
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You guys really, REALLY don't realize how much power the USACE wields.
Even being slashed to pieces.
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I forgot... Even in my embarrassment, I will ask.
What does FFS mean Dan?
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My brother is a civil engineer. He said he studied the N.O. levees in school 20 years ago and even then everyone knew the basic fact that it was a system designed to stop Cat 3 hurricanes.
This is just like 9-11 in that while the general populous couldn't ever have imagined this senario, those responsible have known this day was coming for years.
And to do absolutely nothing but press on with a long range plan was irresponsible.
Saying things like: "Hope we don't get one in 30 years." Shows a total lack of reguard for human life.
From the article, I am not even sure if the Corps is behind Coast 2050? They really don't say. The article mentions that there is a trickle being provided for the marshes and there are hopes more water will be realised.
That must mean the Corps is holding back that water? The Corps must be giving in somewhat to satisfy their environmental committment. A committment that they claim to be whole heartly honoring or are they giving it lip service.
The Missouri river and the water war there shows where the Corps really stands.
Environmentally they will appease. Somehow these environmental answers have to invade their workable plans... For now, like the article said, it is just a leak.
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I think psychologically it would have been a boost for all the people that couldn't (yes, and wouldn't) leave.
A secure area that would see very minimal flooding.
You brought up the idea of compartmentalizing the levee and canal system. This would basically do it for humans... Give them a safe haven.
Of course the SuperDome would house some of the people... I feel there would have to be other shelters set up that could withstand the storm.
The place is still below sea level... If you could keep it dry... Being low would negate some of the wind? I don't know.
The whole idea would have promoted a plan that could be maintained by the local authorities... By putting the kabosh on it made the was city even more tied to the Corps plans.
In the old days weren't the north marshes there?... Basically the haven plan brings the city back to it's historical area.
I see insurance problems with the plan though.
But... From a human side, it would have been like bringing the serfs into the castle during times of war. From within that castle... Room for planing would have taken place.
NOLA would have not been beholden to the Corps... They could have did what they wanted to the devastated area outside the wall.
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I'll try not to go all FFS on ya, but here are some points that the article seemed to make clear, more than anything else:
--There's no way conceivable that the levees would/could have been reinforced in a way to support a category 4 between the time that it was determined that "it might be a good idea" ('99) and now, even with full budgets.
--The scope of the project that was due to be proposed (the 30 year project) would obviously be hugely expensive and it would be unclear who would pay for it. Obviously you get into "what's the worth of human lives?" debate, but it would be more "how much insurance do you need?" In this day and age of scrutinized budgets, there would be a lot of gnashing of teeth if the Fed gov't was looked to in order to spend several billion on a "local" project like that. Sure, spread out over time it would probably on a yearly basis not look too unlike other "pet projects," highway improvements, etc, but there would be "sticker shock." If there's a "plus side" to Katrina it's that there will be a virtual clean slate to work with on the rebuild.
--You already picked at the haughty attitude of the USACE, that if it's not their idea, it's not worthy.
--Obviously this wasn't a direct hit so that perhaps the numbers wouldn't add up, but perhaps there is some small consolation in that the situation looks like it paces behind the predicted toll.
--Bush Bad...Oh, I'm just kidding. Frick, I've been kinda sticking up for the guy through this.
Here's a semi-related National Geogrphic article, focusing more on efforts to save the protective wetlands.
Thanks.
Nice.
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A planned request for help, maybe? I have no problem with the idea that the federal government in extreme situations should be called upon to help municipalities...but the key phrase there is "be called upon". What was New Orleans' plan? "Uhhh...we'll come up with one later, but right now we expect to be on our own for a week until the feds pull our nuts out of the fire."
Basically, it's the difference between screaming for help and planning for help. Apparently most people don't recognize that the feds aren't supposed to just go in and start cleaning sh-- up when it hits the fan...they're supposed to look to local authorities with a greater knowledge of local conditions for the framework to guide them. How the hell are they supposed to do that when the municipal emergency plan is "When confused or when in doubt: run in circles, scream and shout!"?
I agree with you.
NOLA was a "special case."
I know this sounds lame though. Here we are railing against special interests and in the same breath making NOLA "special."
I look at it like you break it, you own it.
More damage has been done to that town by the Corps than you can imagine.
I am still waiting for replies to Dan's article. (Maybe somebody replied... I haven't check yet).
Why has the Corps been against anyhting but their own canals/navigation/levee plans?
Somebody had a good quote about NOLA being "manic." It is so true.
Yet, all we want to do is talk about Retatta.
I really think the one crowd here that calls the others the HotPocket crowd take a look at itself.
I am open for debate
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And when whatever feeble plan they have becomes overwhelmed?
What kind of plan do you have for flooding up to the eaves... Besides screaming for help?
Maybe you can suggest one that wasn't already shot down by the federal government in the past?
Maybe you could suggest one that is favorable to the US federal goverment and their special interests and agenda?
Now couple that plan to a scenario that is straight out of The Drowning Pool?
Now do understand why the "didn't" have a plan?
More Retatta please!
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Debit Cards for Victims of Hurricane Katrina
in Politics, Polls, and Pundits
Posted
It is a start. Makes me feel proud to be an American. I just wish it could be more!