ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

I'm late to the party again and didn't bring beer. Even my middle brother Darryl thought the OP's idea wasn't very sensible, but he did point out that there's this really old fella in Michigan . . . . .

My brother Darryl used to say - - "Well, if it's got t*ts or tires, you're gonna have trouble with it."

Since y'all are already talking about an aspect of the third point anyway, let's start there. I tend to agree with you that this may be true today, but don't you think the situation might have been different back when the Bills In Toronto Series was being negotiated? That's the more relevant time frame for what we are discussing, because we're trying to figure out what terms the various parties might have bargained for when making the deal.

If the Big 10 has its way, it will get worse. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6564134 " Big Ten officials discussed a proposal that would pay athletes to help cover living expenses on top of their scholarships during the league's spring meetings this week. The idea, which is backed by current NCAA president Mark Emmert and was favored by late NCAA president Myles Brand, is to bridge the gap between what athletic scholarships pay and other expenses like transportation and clothing. That difference has been estimated at between $2,000 to $5,000 per player. Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany said league athletic directors and officials have seriously discussed whether they should use some of their growing TV revenue to pay athletes more."

If you ever start a new job, pay attention to what the HR department asks you to sign - - it's possible they will ask you to sign something that gives them the right to do, without even telling you, exactly what you find so Un-American. From http://credit.about.com/od/creditreportscoring/tp/who-checks-credit-report.htm "Potential employers use your credit report to make hiring decisions. Your current employer might also review your credit report before giving you a raise or promotion. Bankruptcy, account delinquencies, and high debt levels could keep you from getting a job or from getting a raise or promotion." It appears however, that the employer does need to have your permission: From http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/employer-credit-checks.html "Can an Employer Check My Personal Credit Report? The Fair Credit Reporting Act requires credit bureau agencies to share a person's credit history with any party who has a legitimate business need for the information. Generally, employers qualify under the federal law and are allowed access to such information for purposes of deciding whether to hire, promote or terminate an employee. Does the Employer Need My Permission before Running a Credit Check? Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, an employer must have your permission before obtaining your credit report. The document that you sign giving the employer permission to run a credit report must be its own separate document; it cannot be a paragraph that is part of a larger job application form or employment contract. If a potential employer refuses to hire you based at least in part on an item in your credit report, the law requires that the employer give you a copy of the report along with the contact information of the credit bureau that issued the report and written instructions on how to challenge the accuracy of the credit report. Even though technically you have the right to refuse to give the employer permission to run a credit report, your refusal may raise the employer¿s suspicion and therefore give the employer reason to refuse to hire you, promote you or retain you as an employee."

1. According to a report by Forbes dated 8/25/10 the Buffalo Bills franchise, based on revenues and operating income for the 2009 season, is worth $799 million. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_NFL-Team-Valuations_DOV.html 2. According to the 2006 version of the NFL Constitution & Bylaws (the most recent version that I have been able to find online), the minimum required equity interest for a controlling shareholder of an NFL club is 30%. See the preamble to "2004 Resolution FC-1A" at page 251/292 of the Constitution & Bylaws here: http://static.nfl.com/static/content//public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf 3. Within the last 2 months, the Sporting News has reported that a controlling NFL owner's minimum allowable equity interest in the franchise remains at 30%. http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-03-29/nfl-business-dish-owners-discuss-easing-equity-rule-for-heirs 4. Thirty percent of $800 million = $240 million [no link, you'll just have to trust me] 5. Larry Tanenbaum's net worth has been reported as $970 million by "The 2010 Rich 100" list. I don't know the exact date upon which his net worth was estimated, but the "list" shows both his "2009 Ranking" and his "2008 Ranking," so it seems likely that the estimate of his net worth is based on 2009 figures. In any event, he is approximately the 60th richest person in Canada. http://list.canadianbusiness.com/rankings/rich100/2010/displayProfile.aspx?profile=61 6. On March 14, 2011, the Toronto Sun reported that Larry Tanenbaum already controls 20.5% of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment ("MLSE"), and has a first right of refusal to buy the rest. The Toronto Sun thinks he may have the money and connections to obtain a controlling 51% interest in MLSE if he chooses. http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2011/03/14/17615326.html 7. According to a Forbes journalist report dated May 12, 2011, a bidding war may be about to break out for MLSE, because the pension fund that currently owns the other roughly 80% of MLSE is exploring a sale. http://blogs.forbes.com/mikeozanian/2011/05/12/maple-leaf-sports-and-entertainment-will-fetch-2-25-billion-sports-banker/ "A Canadian-based sports banker familiar with the discussions on the sale of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment by the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Fund says it is highly likely that either Bell Canada Enterprises or Rogers Communications will eventually pay $2.25 billion for MLS&E. This person spoke on the condition of because of anonymity because they are not authorized to disclose information on the talks." "Although $2.25 billion seems way too rich, the purchase of the Montreal Canadiens by Geoffrey Molson in 2009 for $575 million showed the premium being applied to hockey teams in Canada for their programming could push the value of MLSE well above $1 billion." 8. Let's be conservative and say MLSE sells for only $1 billion. Tanenbaum's 20.5% stake in MLSE alone will gross $205 million dollars (admittedly before taxes). Personally, I hope he does exercise his existing right-of-first-refusal to buy MLSE, because if he does that, he'll have less cash to throw at the Buffalo Bills franchise. 9. If the Toronto press, which presumably has better sources than even you in this matter, thinks that Tanenbaum has the money and connections to obtain a 51% controlling interest in MLSE, which Forbes thinks is worth around $1 billion, I don't understand why Tanenbaum would not have the resources to obtain a 30% stake (all that the NFL requires of a controlling owner) in the Buffalo Bills franchise, which Forbes estimates to be worth less. 10. I don't know if he is still involved in the Bills In Toronto Series or not. Is the same source (Phil Lind?) telling you that (1) Tanenbaum doesn't have the resources and connections to buy the Buffalo franchise, and (2) Tanenbaum was only a minor player in the Bills In Toronto Series who may no longer even be involved? If so, that source may have an agenda, and you might want to independently confirm the info you're getting if you can. 11. Tanenbaum thinks long term. If you still think that he doesn't have the resouces to swing buying an NFL franchise and getting a Toronto stadium built, why does he have to do it simultaneously? What's to prevent him from buying an NFL franchise, and then operating it in place while he continues to seek a new stadium in Toronto? He would be in a much better position to seek stadium approvals if he already owned a franchise. 12. I am still planning to address the three points from your first post in this thread, but it may take a little while before I can get to it. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Humor aside, let's talk about it. Serious question - - how much money do you think it takes to have a controlling interest in an NFL franchise?

Do you think Larry Tanenbaum has the money to have a controlling interest in an NFL franchise?

Sounds fair.

I would be happy to respond to any comments about a possible Bills ownership change or move in the other thread. I won't do so here, to you or anyone else. I really just thought this was an entertaining read.

I could be wrong, but didn't the 8th Circuit follow old but never overturned U.S. Supreme Court precedent indicating that "growing out of a labor dispute" (or whatever the exact Norris statutory language is) doesn't even require that there was ever a union at all? I have not gone back to read it a second time, but I seem to recall reading a citation to a US Supreme Court case to that effect in an NFL 8th Circuit brief.

I've been posting some of my thoughts about the Bills In Toronto Series deal in another thread, but found this article about Larry Tanenbaum (one of the Toronto businessmen involved in that deal) interesting enough to merit its own thread. No theories here, just an entertaining read about the guy: http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magazine/what-does-winning-look-like/article254797/page1/?service=mobile 1. After you open the link, be sure to click a second time on "Continue Reading" so that you can see the whole article. 2. As a rich Canadian kid attending Cornell University, he was an equipment manager for the NCAA champion Cornell hockey team.

Anderson Cooper: "Humility, thy name is Trump" Funny, satirical video from Anderson Cooper's "The RidicuList" series (after the startup commercial): http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/05/17/exp.ac.ridiculist.donald.trump.cnn

Thanks. I understand tax basis, but hadn't thought about how someone who recently became an owner wouldn't have much appreciation yet on which the capital gains tax from selling a 30% ownership stake would have to be paid. So back to trying to figure out which team Galatioto might have been referring to in the 2010 CNBC video, the most likely candidates might be owners who fit one or both of the following criteria (because any owner could be thinking about estate planning regardless of age, and Galatioto said that estate planning was one of the factors motivating the sale - not the only factor): 1. Relatively recently bought a franchise (based on the seemingly reasonable assumption that there has been fairly steady appreciation in team values over the years); and 2. Has a relatively greater need for cash now - - [maybe because the owner foresaw the lockout coming, has relatively high debt service that will still need to be paid even if the 2011 season gets delayed, and had the foresight to realize that the lockout fund created by renegotiating the TV contracts might not hold up to court scrutiny in MN? In that regard, Judge Doty found for the players in the TV lockout fund case in part because the NFL, in creating a lockout fund from TV revenues, put (1) its own interest in avoiding violations of some teams' loan covenants above (2) the league's contractual CBA obligation to maximize TV revenues for the JOINT benefit of the owners and the NFLPA.] Does that sound like a sensible way to narrow down the list of possible teams that Galatioto was talking about?

Thanks. I will assume this means that either (1) Phil Lind was not specific about why "no one at Rogers is currently in position to buy an NFL franchise," or (2) Phil Lind told you something off-the-record that you cannot ethically repeat. For my present purposes it doesn't matter which one it was. I am thinking about the 3 reasons you gave in your first post for why you believe my suggestion is "highly unlikely" and "vastly improbable." I want to check a few more facts before I respond to the three points you made there.

I've thought about this a little more. Your argument about avoiding double taxation is entirely logical, but it can't be 100% applicable to the partial ownership sale that Galatioto mentioned in the CNBC video clip. It's been a while since I watched the video (couldn't get it to load today), but I have a pretty clear recollection of him saying that the partial ownership sale was being done in part for estate planning purposes. The earlier TSW thread about the video reflects this. Think about it - - if your argument about avoiding double taxation always applied, when would anyone EVER sell a partial ownership interest in an NFL franchise as part of their estate planning process? It would always result in double taxation. Yet Galatioto said that estate planning was one of the reasons why the sale of a partial ownership interest was going to "launch." On the other hand, I'm not saying that the Galatioto sale involved the Bills. Ralph was already pretty old in the fall of 2010, and he's always been pretty sharp financially. What changed in 2010 that would have made him alter course (because it's reasonable to assume he already had a course), and belatedly sell 30%? On balance, I don't think we have enough information to draw many conclusions. I do appreciate, however, the OP's efforts to think things through, do some calculations, share his ideas with supportive links, and give us all something to think about. Just my 2 cents.

If we really don't have anybody else, how about Bryan Scott. Didn't he get pressed into emergency LB service a few years ago against the Jets and do pretty well? Obviously that gives up some run D ability, but we're talking about expected passing downs, and he's listed at 219.

Seems like reasonable goals for the most part - - a few minor things I'd quibble about: 1. I think Sheppard could turn out to be pretty good, and could be a defensive captain someday, but not this year. Not sure when defensive captains are picked, but if it's a one-time vote before the regiular season even starts, it's hard to see him being a captain this year. 2. Carrington seemed to be coming on pretty strong late last year - - I'd set his goals higher. If they keep Kyle Williams at NT as reported to be the plan, Carrington could see a lot more playing time this year. He supposedly has natural pass rush ability but was weaker against the run. With a full year of pro strength and conditioning, he ought to be stouter against the run, while hopefully the overall defense, unlike last year, can afford to bring in more pass rush ability even if it does weaken the run D a little bit. We couldn't afford that last season. And he might have more upside thsn Edwards. 3. Roscoe Parrish incurred a season-ending injury in the 8th game. If you pro-rate his 8 game stats to a full season, he was already playing at the level of 66 catches for 800 yards and 4 TDs. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8469 I suppose you could say it would be a breakout year for him to just perform at the same level while staying healthy for a full season - -but I would set his goals higher than 900 yards with 5 TDs. Just my 2 cents.

Interesting analysis - - thanks for sharing your thoughts. FWIW, I've tried to Google Sal Galatioto about 30 times since posting the original CNBC video clip, but I've never been able to find anything else about the sale he was discussing. He did say during the interview, though, that most partial ownership sales are made quietly, or words to that effect.

1. $78 million dollars to spend on trying to get the Bills to the Super Bowl during his lifetime, after which he has not made any public promises that the Bills will remain in Buffalo anyway. 2. Toronto businessman Larry Tanenbaum doesn't think a right-of-first-refusal to buy a sports franchise is "weird." He already has one to buy a big chunk of the Toronto Maple Leafs, and it's expected that it will soon either (a) make him the primary owner of the Maple Leafs (he already owns about 20% through one of his companies), or (b) make him a richer man than he already is. http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2011/03/14/17615326.html "When Steve Stavro was controlling the show at the time of the Raptors-Leafs merger, Larry Tanenbaum waited and when the time was right, took control of Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment. Now the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan is exploring the idea of selling its controlling 66% with a price tag of $1.3 billion or more. Who is it going to be? Rogers? CTVglobemedia? Shaw? Jim Balsillie? "It could be any of them but none of it is going to happen with out Larry's approval because he not only has first right of refusal but, like he does with everything, he's been planning for this inevitability for years," said a source close to the story. Don't forget his main guy on the board is Dale Lastman and it was Dale with then-Sun Media president Paul Godfrey who put the original merger deal together on the sixth floor of the Sun building in 1998." ============================== P.S. Dale Lastman, Paul Godfrey and Larry Tanenbaum were all involved in structuring the Bills In Toronto Series deal. http://darrylwolkpolitics.blogspot.com/2007/10/larry-tanenbaum-and-ted-rogers.html

Did Phil Lind say why there is "no one at Rogers currently in a position to purchase an NFL franchise?" This seems to imply that there is a temporary problem that might be overcome by someone at Rogers in the future. Was he any more specific? I am trying to dig up some more information about the businessmen on the Toronto side of the Bills In Toronto Series deal, and any further detail you could provide about Phil Lind's comments would be helpful if you have time. Thanks.

To put it in the context of a situation that more people are familiar with - - you can sign a perfectly binding contract to buy a house conditioned upon (1) you being able to qualify for a mortgage that you have not yet even applied for, and (2) the house passing an inspection that hasn't been performed yet. If the buyer qualifies for the mortgage and the house passes inspection the deal goes through, money changes hands, and the buyer gets the keys. If the buyer can't get approved for the loan, or the inspection shows that the house is about to fall down, the deal doesn't go through, and the buyer never has to fork over the purchase price. The option to buy or right-of-first-refusal to buy can be structured to deal with the "contingency" that the NFL might not approve the sale, just like the contract to buy a house can be structured to deal with the "contingency" that a future inspection reveals that it is about to fall down.

1. How did it become "my" dig down theory? My OP stated, with respect to the Toronto councilman who talked about "diggiing down:" "there are valid reasons to doubt his credibility" "I don't know how plausible "digging down" is" 2. What's to prevent the Toronto group from buying the franchise and continuing to operate it in Buffalo until they can get a better facility in Toronto? If they can never get a satisfactory stadium built in Toronto they keep the team in Buffalo - - but it would probably be easier for them to get stadium commitments from the local Toronto area elected officials if they already had control of a franchise. 3. I agree that the Toronto group would need to get approval from the existing NFL owners to buy the Bills, but they don't need that approval today in order to get the kind of option or right-of-first-refusal I'm talking about. IF such a deal was already made by Ralph, the Toronto group could also simply walk away and not exercise their rights if, upon Ralph's future death, they still don't have a stadium that meets NFL requirements.

Here's the link I already provided to the 2006 version of the NFL Constitution and Bylaws in connection with fact #2 in my OP - - see the text of "1996 Resolution FC-6" (starting at page 169/292): http://static.nfl.com/static/content//public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf If no team is owned by a corporation, how does the following text from "1996 Resolution FC-6" make any sense at all (the letters FC appear in the title of the resolution because it was an NFL Finance Committee resolution)? "Further Resoved, that if an NFL club is owned by a privately held corporation that has multiple classses of stock, one of which possesses full voting power and the others of which possess voting power only to the extent required by applicable corporate law, the principal and/or controlling owner shall only be required to have a 30% equity interest in the corporation if such principal and/or controlling owner owns all of the voting stock of the corporation and is not subject to contractual or other restrictions on his ability to vote such stock;" Buffalo Bills, Inc. (a New York corporation) owns the Buffalo Bills franchise (i.e., the team), and Ralph Wilson is the controlling owner of the shares of Buffalo Bills, Inc.

As promised in my original post: 1. The NFL clubs have recently made representations to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals about the actual legal owners of the teams: http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca8/11-1898/801649983/ 2. The above document mentions Buffalo Bills, Inc. That happens to be a New York State corporation. Ralph Wilson is commonly referred to as the owner of the Bills because he owns the controlling interest in this corporation: http://appext9.dos.state.ny.us/corp_public/CORPSEARCH.ENTITY_INFORMATION?p_nameid=415664&p_corpid=355631&p_entity_name=%42%75%66%66%61%6C%6F%20%42%69%6C%6C%73&p_name_type=%41&p_search_type=%42%45%47%49%4E%53&p_srch_results_page=0