ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

Really nice find! For those who may not have noticed, you can sort each column by clicking on the blue hyper-linked column header. And if you click on the blue "Buffalo Bills" hyperlink you get this page: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_Buffalo-Bills_301765.html It contains a more detailed breakdown specific to the Bills' operations. They even break the estimated franchise value down into various components, and have a "player-costs-to-win" ratio that seems to measure how efficiently the team converts payroll expense into wins. I haven't had time to review it in detail, but the Bills' efficiency number looks pretty low. With respect to team debt and estimated franchise value, make sure you read the footnotes. If I'm reading the estimates of team value correctly, the footnotes state that the estimate doesn't include ANY debt except for stadium debt. If that's right, I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions about whether Ralph Wilson caused Buffalo Bills, Inc. to take out any loans. There could be huge loans that aren't reflected in the estimate of franchise value - - you just can't tell. Maybe the table is set up that way because even Forbes can't get info about non-stadium related debt incurred by the types of closely held, private corporations that own most NFL franchises.

Not saying it impacts the Bills at all, but you might want to read this: http://nfllabor.com/2010/10/29/commissioner-goodell-%E2%80%9Crestructured-season-would-allow-for-more-international-games%E2%80%9D/

I don't claim to be an expert about anything, but it's my opinion that it's certainly possible that Ralph caused the private, closely held New York corporation he owns and controls (Buffalo Bills, Inc.) to borrow money using the Buffalo Bills NFL franchise as collateral. As a private, closely held corporation, Buffalo Bills, Inc. is not required to disclose such borrowing (if there was any) to the public - - so there is no easy way to know if such borrowing was done. You can use all sorts of assets as collateral to borrow money. But the borrowing doesn't affect the amount of any taxes that might be due when you sell. In tax jargon, borrowing money against an asset doesn't change your tax "basis" in the asset. If Buffalo Bills, Inc. ever sells the Buffalo Bills franchise, the taxes due on the appreciated value of the franchise are totally unaffected by the earlier borrowing. If the company owes money to banks or other lenders at the time of sale, that's an obligation in addition to whatever tax obligation the sale causes. I sometimes use colloquialisms when I post, and I don't claim to have any particular expertise or education, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. For all you know, I'm two sandwiches shy of a full picnic and FOS. BTW, the most recent publicly available version of the NFL Constitution and Bylaws that I have been able to find (it often gets amended at annual league meetings) is dated 2006, and it contains what appear to be periodically increased debt ceiling limits for each franchise. See, for example page 167/292 at: http://static.nfl.com/static/content//public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf If you know how to search a pdf formatted doument, you can see a few other provisions in the Constitution and Bylaws document that involve limits on each team's debt by going to the top of the first page, typing "debt ceiling" in the search box, and hitting "enter." This will jump you to the first use of the term "debt ceiling" in the document. You can then hit the left or right arrow buttons next to the search box to jump forward or back to other places in the document where the same term is used.

Hey Coach - - do you need those exact words, or is an acknowledgement that my idea had at least some tiny element of "genius" to it enough? Ehh, probably not good enough. K-9's probably just layin' behind the log, as they say, and tryin' to get me to drop my guard. And I'm sure there are plenty of others who still don't see the value in re-allocating some of our scouting resources from west coast colleges to Southeast high schools. Anyway, I got a lawn that needs to be mowed before my neighbor grabs a flashlight and tries to do it for me. I'll try to holler back at y'all when I've got time. Go Bills!

If frogs had pockets they'd carry pistols and shoot snakes. Don't tell me which way my tracks run. I'm not the one who first said that we're all tryin' to rob the same train in the draft. Buddy knows what he's doin'. If you think robbin' a train leavin' a station in Buffalo Bills country is a good idea, all you're gonna wind up with is Jon Corto and Namaan Roosevelt. Players I like, but they ain't gettin' measured for a yellow jacket in Canton, Ohio any time soon. I don't understand why it's so hard to see the advantages of trying to find out as much as you can about the best future players a little earlier than the 31 other teams that are ultimately competing with the Bills to get the best college players - - especially when our publicly announced plan is to build the team through the draft. Why is locating the best talent later than everybody else a good idea?

You're makin' my point. Aaron Maybin is a 5 pound DE in a 10 pound sack. If I remember right he went to high school in the Washington DC area - - that's how he met LaVar Arrington of the Redskins. OK maybe not the deep South, but still in the South by most people's definition. If we had scouted him even a little bit in high school and become familiar with the flaws in his game, maybe we don't fall in love with his college stats as a 1 year wonder who left Penn State early. As for Pop Warner - - he was well before my time. I can't speak to his personality. For all I know, maybe he didn't have 'nuff branches in his family tree and weren't right.

Southerners are an easy target, but don't make fun of Pop Warner - - his hometown was Springville, N.Y. and he coached football at the University of Georgia (among others). Have a little respect for the history of the game. From http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/97/9.18.97/Pop_Warner.html : "During halftime of Cornell's home football game Saturday, Sept. 20, with Princeton University at Schoellkopf Field, there will be a ceremony honoring a Cornell and American football coaching legend ­ Glenn Scobey "Pop" Warner. This past July ­ 43 years after his death ­ the U.S. Postal Service issued a Pop Warner commemorative stamp, along with stamps honoring fellow coaching legends Paul "Bear" Bryant, Vince Lombardi and George Halas. On the field at halftime of the Princeton-Cornell game, Ithaca Postmaster Edward Gatch will present to Cornell an enlarged, framed print of the Pop Warner stamp. Receiving the print on behalf of the university will be Alan V. Manchester, a 1960 Cornell alumnus from Warner's hometown of Springville, N.Y., who was instrumental in gaining this recognition for Warner. A story describing Warner's remarkable career will appear in the game program. Warner, born in 1871, became known as "Pop" to his younger classmates during his law school and football playing days at Cornell from 1892 to 1894." You might also be interested to know that the NFLPA estimates that 60-70% of all NFL players played Pop Warner football. And if you go to the national Pop Warner football organization website here: http://www.popwarner.com/ you can scroll down to the bottom left corner of the home page and click "play" for the video entitled "I Play Pop Warner" - - I couldn't figure out how to post a more direct link to that video here. One of the first players on the video is none other than CJ Spiller, last year's first round Bills' draft choice, who Buddy Nix drafted out of, wait for it - - - Clemson University in the Southeast. Don't put words in my mouth and claim that I said we should scout Pop Warner - I don't think we should. But scouting the feeder high schools that send the most players to southern college football leagues makes sense. Let's hope they task the new Southeast guy to spend a little time in high schools in the Southeast. Seems like they could at least go to some Friday night games if the rest of their scouting schedule is mainly Saturday college games.

My OP assumed that the scouting budget stayed the same. If Ralph decides to spend more money on scouting than he has in the past, then I'm as happy as a possum in a parsimmon patch. Let's just allocate some of the extra money to scouting high schools in the geographic areas from which Buddy is most likely to draft his future players anyway. That's the spirit - - but let's not get carried away. We're a small market team that doesn't have unlimited funds. Seriously, though, I think the Pop Warner suggestion is a blue heron. I hope you realize I wouldn't advocate making changes that radical.

When I first saw your list I had to ask myself - - am I just as confused as a cow lookin' at a new gate? But then I thought about it some. 1. What makes you think these player's would have had a fart's chance in a whirlwind of bein' drafted by Buddy Nix, given his empirical record of drafting players mainly from the South? Not solely from the South, but mainly from the South? 2. Do you know where those players went to high school? Also, I never said we should scout ONLY in the South. I'm advocating reallocating some of the resources we now use to scout and evaluate players from colleges out west, and focus more (not exclusively just more) on high schools in what I will generally call the South or South East (regardless of exact geographic boundaries). If you go back and read my OP, I never suggested reducing our scouting efforts anywhere but in the west. So I think our historical efforts to scout college players in the Big 10, etc. would not be affected at all by what I proposed. I don't know the biographical data on where all of the players in your list played college ball, but I know some. The first two players on your list are Tom Brady and Drew Brees - - both played in the Big 10. Not affected one bit my original suggestion.

I may be a couple bushels short of a full silo, but I never claimed players from the South are infallible. The empirical evidence, however, seems to show that, with occasional exceptions, Buddy Nix likes to select players from the South in the draft. If we're gonna draft from there anyway, why not focus our scouting resources there? For all I know you could be Rob Johnson, so I'll tread lightly here. It's not surprising that the "Ghost of Rob Johnson" would have a favorable opinion of players out West. The real Rob Johnson went to high school in Orange County, CA and played his college ball at USC. http://articles.latimes.com/1992-11-20/sports/sp-593_1_rob-johnson Let's just say he's not going to the Hall of Fame any time soon.

Andrew Luck isn't getting any more hype now than Jake Locker did last year - - and although Locker was drafted in the first round lots of people think there are some holes in his game. The expectations for Locker now are no higher than the expectations were for Ryan Leaf when he was drafted. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we all know how Ryan Leaf turned out. But the Colts were at least somewhat criticized at the time for drafting Peyton Manning ahead of him. Ryan Leaf played his college ball in the state of Washington - - Peyton played at the University of Tennessee (if I recall correctly). Which one's going to the Hall of Fame? Andrew Luck didn't play high school football in California - - he played in Houston, which is in South Texas. http://www.gostanford.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/luck_andrew00.html I've read some of your posts in other threads, and bless your heart, you can be pretty persuasive. Maybe you could convince me to send a few scouts to South Texas high schools, and if we identify somebody as exceptionally talented there, keep an eye on 'em in college. But then again, you could probably sell socks to a rooster. How are we gonna be better train robbers if we don't go where the best talent is, and identify it early?

In my OP I gave lots of examples of the players that Buddy Nix drafted from the Southeast. I happen to think that Buddy has a keen eye for talent. What sort of return have we gotten out of the last two drafts for whatever money we spent on scouting out west (regardless of where the scout's home base is)? Even our best undrafted free agents have frequently been from the Southeast. Jabari Greer was undrafted out of Tennessee and he's gone on to start in the Super Bowl. The people in our scouting department work hard, but they're busier than a one-eyed cat watching three mouse holes because they're spread too thin. We should focus where the best young talent is, and get there early. That isn't out west. Go Bills!!

Wasn't it Einstein who said that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again in the same way and expecting a different result? How many years have we been wasting scouting resources out west and getting roughly the same 7-9 results? Let the other 31 teams scout out west. We should scout high schools in the Southeast instead and be better train robbers. Go Bills!!

At least we seem to agree that we have limited resources. Trips to the South cost less than trips out west - - it's just closer. With the way the cost of gas is rising who knows how much it would cost to scout out west in a few years. How much more do you want to spend for season tickets so we can scout guys like Edwards, Lynch and Flowers? But more importantly, if we spend more time following the amateur career of a player, we will be in better position to pick the next superstar like Kobe instead of the "kiddies" that don't amount to anything. The NBA is a physical game, too. If a high school player's skills are so ugly that they'd need to sneak up on a water fountain to get a drink - - stop scoutin' 'em and focus your limited resources elsewhere. You may be right about the Kobe going to the Lakers via trade - - but it sorta proves my point. What did the Charlotte Hornets amount to - - Kobe has three championship rings and has played on the Lakers for years. Dontcha think the Hornets wish they had kept Kobe?

How are we supposed to be better train robbers than the other 31 teams if we have to share our information about the train with them? That heifer don't hunt! Go Bills!!

Hey y'all! I reckon most of us would agree that the Buddy Nix master plan is building the Bills through the draft. I'm on board with that approach. Letting Modrak go and promoting Whaley were good first steps toward improving our long term draft results. But why stop there? If we're really committed to drafting the very best players in the future, we need to scout young players differently than the other 31 teams. We need to think outside the box as we reorganize the scouting department. Rather then sending scouts all over the country, why not focus our small market resources on the places where we are most likely to find the best talent? Buddy is known for having a keen eye for talent, and he has consistently drafted players from the Southeast because that must be where he thinks the best talent is. Spiller, Troup, Carrington, Dareus, Sheppard, Searcy and Hairston all are from or played a lot of their games in the Southeast. Everybody knew those early round draftees were good players, but what about the late round guys that you have to scour the bushes to find? Well 7th round gems Levi Brown and man mountain Michael Jasper played on the same high school team. Guess where - - Mt. Juliet High School in Tennessee. So let's not waste time and money scouting out west for the likes of Trent Edwards and Marshawn Lynch and Erik Flowers. Let's scout deep instead of wide, and send our scouts where the talent is. Let's send some scouts to the best high schools in the Southeast and identify the best players there as early as possible. Buddy has connections to college coaches in the Southeast - - maybe he can identify the feeder schools like Mt. Juliet that supply the southern college leagues with the best high character talent. If we identify the best talent earlier, we can follow their college careers longer, get to know their strengths and weaknesses better, and ultimately make better draft day decisions. And if the courts radically change the structure of the NFL and allow teams to sign players without age restrictions, maybe we can sign the next Peyton Manning before the other 31 teams find him. The Lakers won three consecutive NBA championships in part because they drafted Kobe Bryant right out of high school, and he developed into a league MVP. Who's to say we can't find our next franchise QB the same way? Buddy Nix says that the draft is like all 32 NFL teams trying to rob the same train. How are we going to be better train robbers than the other 31 teams if we don't get to the train first? Let's rob it as it leaves the station in the Southeast, and let the other guys try to rob it years later out west. Go Bills!!!

It's a trade-off. You don't have to pay the gardener, but you have to pay for Deck upkeep instead. I recommend Ronseal. Yeah, OK, it's a UK product but Canada used to be part of the British Empire so the Canadian gardener won't get too upset. From http://www.ronseal.co.uk/faqs/ (in answer to the question - - Why do I need to protect my deck?): "Decking looks great when it's first laid but it does need protecting from the elements. UV rays grey the wood over time and water can cause it to swell, crack and split. Protecting your deck with a coating such as a stain, oil or protector revives the colour and keeps it looking like new."

I'll leave the legal analysis to others, but if you want to see how the payment obligations are spelled out in a typical NFL player contract, there is a "standard form" player contract reproduced as Appendix C at page 248/301 of the recently expired CBA at this link: http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/NFL%20COLLECTIVE%20BARGAINING%20AGREEMENT%202006%20-%202012.pdf It appears that the "standard form" can be customized in various ways to fit the particular player/team situation, but in the absence of any customization, the default provisions for compensation and payment are found at paragraphs 5 and 6 (starting at document page 250/301). I've read media reports about things like roster bonuses and workout bonuses that aren't in the standard form, so there may be plenty of customized terms in most player contracts. But it looks like the default provision is that base salary doesn't start getting paid until the first regular season game is played.

If Scrappy hired a gay Canadian lawn mower to mow his now ex-wife's yard, wouldn't that make it more of a "Ball of Confusion?":

Thanks, I did find that interesting. I've read some of the trial court briefs, but the only 8th Circuit brief I've read was the NFL's brief referenced in my earlier post. When I have time, I will try to read the players' brief(s) with your comments in mind. I appreciate your taking the time to give me your take. Let's hope we have a full schedule of games this fall.

Maybe this has been discussed in other threads, but I must have missed it. Your example about Jim Kelly sounds right, but I also thought I remembered reading that Michael Crabtrree could re-enter the 2010 draft if the 49ers did not sign him by a certain date. Based on a quick Google search, I think my recollection about Crabtree was right: http://blog.oregonlive.com/nfl/2009/09/nfl_insider_michael_crabtree_s.html So why the difference between Jim Kelly and Michael Crabtree? I have no clue. The recently expired 2006 CBA probably covered the Crabtree siutation, but I'm not up to speed on what the rules were back in the early Jim Kelly days.

I find plenty of fault with both sides, but your analogy isn't accurate. As a result of bargaining in which both sides were represented by high-priced and presumably capable negotiators, a collective bargaining agreement ("CBA") was agreed upon by BOTH sides in 2006. It's long and complex, but publicly available. You can read it here: http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/NFL%20COLLECTIVE%20BARGAINING%20AGREEMENT%202006%20-%202012.pdf Before the CBA was signed, the negotiators for BOTH sides agreed that each party would later have the right to opt out of it, and that provision was written into the CBA. It's a whole two sentences long, and you can find it at Article LVIII, Section 3(a) at page 240/301 of the above link. It reads: "(a) Either the NFLPA or the Management Council may terminate both of the final two Capped Years (2010 and 2011) by giving written notice to the other on or before November 8, 2008. In that event, the 2010 League Year would be the Final League Year, and the Agreement would continue in full force and effect until the last day of that League Year, except for the provisions related to the Draft, which would expire as prescribed in Article XVI, Section 1." So it's closer to a situation where your boss walks into your office and says "hey, you know that contract we jointly negotiated and signed so that you could work here? It gave each of us the right to terminate it after you had worked here for a few years just in case either of us later thought it was unfair. Well we have decided to exercise the contractual right you gave us to opt out of it and try to negotiate a new one. We want to give you less money and oh yea you'll be working more!" Now you may find the owners arrogant and greedy for exercising the right you gave them to terminate the original agreement and ask you to work longer for less money, but they're just doing something that you agreed a long time ago that they had the right to do. There are things the owners have done that the players have a right to complain about. Opting to terminate the CBA early according to terms that the NFLPA previously agreed to isn't one of them.

I'm open to well-reasoned arguments on both sides of this issue. If I recall correctly, Mickey has stated in a different post that he is a lawyer with quite a bot of litigation experience, so I would still appreciate getting his response (if he has the time) to my post. Doesn't necessarily mean I will agree with him, but I'd like to get more info from him if he is gracious enough to give me some of his time and share his thoughts. As for your own response: 1. I actually agree with you that here the employers aren't letting the workers work; 2. If you think Mickey specifically countered the owners' argument about the effect of 29 U.S.C. S 178 without even mentioning that statute you're entitled to your opinion. It's certainly possible that the 8th Circuit will conclude that the Norris-LaGuardia Act's injunction bar applies only to strikes and not to lockouts - - I think that's what the players' lawyers are contending. I just don't find the issue as clear cut as you seem to. The only 8th Circuit opinion we have so far in the case was not unanimous (and went against the players to boot), so maybe there's room for more than one point of view here. 3. I don't know what you consider the "main point of the brief." The second sentence of the brief reads - - "Congress long ago determined that, to achieve and secure labor peace, federal courts may not interfere - on either side - in cases involving or growing out of a labor dispute." Now, I'm not saying that the second sentence of a brief necessarily conveys the "main point," but they sure started talking about what "Congress determined" (i.e., Congressional intent) pretty quickly.

Schobel knows that he was too light to play DE in the 3-4, so he's obviously bulking up. Dareus should be a great 3-4 DE and he's what, 319? So Schobel only needs to add another 9 pounds or so and the comeback starts! They just can't sign him till the CBA stuff gets resolved, and they don't want to talk about it so other teams don't get interested and drive up his price. Please make sure you're sarcasm detector is operational before replying to this post.

Word! Here's a link to an actual Canadian lawn mower company. When the site comes up, the top of the page shows sequential pictures of their products in a slideshow type format: http://www.mtdcanada.com/home.asp?SelectedPage=1 If Canadian lawn mowing equipment is so great, how come the pictures only show women handling or riding it? Uh, wait a minute . . . . .