PDaDdy

Sounds like you are debating chicken or the egg while your own statements actually confirm that franchise QBs put up numbers. Therefore NUMBERS can be used to define a criteria for what a franchise QB is. The problem all the haters have is that if they define what that statistical success is that franchise QBs produce that some QBs might meet or exceed those numbers that aren't franchise QBs in their opinion. As stated, that is the problem with qualitative assessments there is no winning the argument. There is no end to the debate. Once someone has the balls to put numbers to franchise performance they have to accept that some guys they don't think are franchise really are and some guys they think are franchise really aren't. Only providing biased qualitative evaluations without also providing quantitative evaluations are useless. It's like debating good art vs bad art. It's all in the eye of the beholder and everyone's opinion is of equal value. I have already found a pro coach. Gailey and our general manager Nix already think that Fitz is franchise and they have paid him as such

Ah if only games were won and lost by qualitative assessment. Unfortunately numbers tell the story. In the NFL we keep score which are numbers. I'm not saying there is no value to qualitative assessments but they are opinions nothing more. To address your analogy. Almost everyone has a different opinion of pornography. Nude paintings by famous artists are considered pornography by some and art by others.

ROFLOL. Nice. I hope FJ doesn't go through the same contract issues as Peters. I wonder if people will be consistent and turn on him like a pack of wild dogs too.

Not sure where you got your BS stats from. Some bozo web site with a made up adjusted QB rating that nobody has ever heard of. We already have QB rating and QBR not to mention a slew of stats on nfl.com. MEANWHILE. THANK YOU for making ME learn something. This ESPN article confirms that Fitz is actually THE FASTEST QB IN THE LEAGUE GETTING RID OF THE BALL! NOT that I would expect you to actually learn anything but Hasselbeck got rid of the ball on average in 2.36 so Fitz actually has to get rid of it faster than that. What QB can be successful given that knowledge? http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/30493/line-of-scrimmage-key-to-qb-play-winning I have NO DOUBT that you will ignore this information because it would actually mean you are flat out wrong. I doubt you have the integrity of character to admit as such so I won't bother for a response to my points just more BS name calling and trolling.

You couldn't be more wrong. It's your right to continue to be so. Eli led the league with 3.1? Are you kidding? Fitz and Matt Hasselbach of the Titans both had less than 2.7. SOOOO maybe Eli did led the league in having the most time. Our guy had the second least. Pointing out that there are good players found in the later rounds doesn't mean that every player found in the later rounds are good. Do you see the leap of logic you attempted to make there? Let me clue you in. EVERYONE can learn something about football you and I both included. It's people like you that have a narrow minded view that don't believe they can learn anything WON'T. Smart people consider new information. Evaluate it and incorporate it into their understanding if it makes sense. Boorish blow hard supposed know it alls stick to their guns despite new information. Strike 3? ROFLOL. You're not even at bat in the same league dude. LOL. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm that guy that makes the other guy want to take his ball and go home. Let me explain what a whiner is to me. A guy that complains but can't quantitatively identify the problem. Can't quantitatively define what success is and has no ability to provide a solution and much more importantly a realistic plan to provide that solution. Consider how you stack up against those criteria. Stike 4 Again big man. Define what a franchise QB is and maybe you have a leg to stand on. Until then you are a whiner plain and simple. Now take your ball(s) and go home.

How do you statistically define a starter? Wow. What a well thought out *eh em* intelligent argument. Please statistically define a franchise QB? OH? You can't? Why? Perhaps because with the crap we have he outperformed some guys you think ARE franchise QBs?

Can we PLEASE for the last time consolidate all of these disguised Fitz isn't good enough with the crap WRs and 2.68 second offensive line we have. Seriously! Make one big I want to whine that Fitz isn't 1 of a hand of of franchise QBs that nobody can define statistically threads? AGAIN I DOUBLE DOG DARE ANYONE, ANYONE AT ALL TO DEFINE STATISTICALLY WHAT A FRANCHISE QB IS!!?!?!? If you can't you really need to stop whining. IF someone actually takes the challenge I have been issuing for weeks and does statistically define a franchise QB tell me how many guys meet that criteria. Also show me the offensive linemen giving them more than 3 seconds to throw and the hand outside the torso catchers that they are throwing to. Keep on whining! Keep on dreaming. Try coming up with some facts though.

I'm glad you laughed but you missed an opportunity for education. It's not where you're drafted it's how you play. Our line doesn't afford Fitz more than 2.68 seconds to get rid of the ball. THAT is not good enough. End of story. All you need to know. It's not where you are drafted it's how you play. Despite where those guys were drafted I'll bet some made probowl not to mention the other guys around them on their respective lines. How many of our guys made it? I'm not saying our REAL LT of the future is there at #10 but we NEED our REAL LT of the future and some WRs before we worry about Fitz. He's signed for a bunch of years and a bunch of money. Support our starter or be a whiny hater.

How do you explain so many of their lineman making the probowl? Because they suck?....HAHhAHAhaAHahAh. I might call Manning a push because he proved in his absence how much of that team he really was.

All I heard was blah blah blah BS... We need a LT. Get a clue. Demetrius "IR" Bell the late UFA and Chris "4th round" Harrison I also get hurt are not the answer. The guys you mention have great tackles. Did you watch the probowl? At one point there were 3, count them THREE New Orleans Saints offensive lineman on the field at the same time including the LT. Rogers at one point I believe also had more than 1 offensive lineman playing at a given time. If it weren't for the super bowl I would imagine there would have been representation from New England and or New York. I hate it too but after Fitz rib injury his stats went down along with 4 WRS, a LT, our best offensive line man and center Eric Woods and Fred Jackson who looked like an NFL MVP candidate. Ya...those things had NOTHING to do with our slide and Fitz's performance. Again...get a clue. P.S. Fitz was also the second fastest QB in the league getting rid of the ball. HE was also hit a league high 3.1 times per sack. What does this mean? Fitz almost the least time in the league to find WRs plant his feet and make good accurate throws. Let's just ignore all that and whine about a QB who was leading the entire freaking league through 5 or 6 weeks while we had the best and for a time the second best record in the NFL for a while.

At least you have a more open minded view. I am not worried about the supposed consistency issues and motivation. Things like this are alleged all the time by various sources. As I mentioned to another poster nobody has a list of all the players that "motivation" has been listed as an issue so when we say things like "another in a long line" we really have no factual data to back it up or ability to come up with any sort of success or failure rate. It's pure unfounded speculation that can't be confirmed. One thing I do know is that consistency can be taught with experience and good coaching. The alleged motivational issues even if they actually did exist at the college level can also be addressed at the pro level with coaching, leadership and teammates. What can't be taught is a 6'6" 281 lb monster who played against double teams and has the ability to play DE, DT and possibly even LB in some situations. This guy looks like he could be one of the Giants defensive lineman that got after Brady and denied him yet another ring. As I have stated I would be cool with Upshaw and love the fact he is from Alabama where Dareus played. Dareus should be able to give us the inside scoop on what the kid has. If he has the goods Marcel should be a very vocal advocate for his acquisition.

Ah the man crush defense. *sigh*. I just see a good player that most everyone ranks very highly that for some reason people on this board are afraid of because of a supposed motivation issue. The guy produces and looks like a player on film. That being said I have no problem with Upshaw and think he will actually be our pick as Coples will already be gone. Both fit needs and both should be starters from day one. I just don't see a real reason for the hate. How did Orakpo work out playing in supposedly a second class conference? I heard all manor of explanations for why he wouldn't pan out like the conference he played in, the school he went to and I think even motivation issues were alleged yet he is doing just fine.

People are making WAY to much of this didn't play hard his senior year crap. The guy has played DT and DE and gets double teamed all over the place. Apparently his opponents didn't believe the hype about his motor. I have actually gone and looked at anything I could find on Coples and see a player. Granted this is a small sample size as their isn't too much out there. People LOVE LOVE LOVE to throw out measurables when it doesn't suite their argument. Football is a tough game for big strong fast people. You can't get around that. When you find guys that excel but don't fit that mold they are the EXCEPTION not the RULE! Coples would be a great addition to our team and I hope like hell the Dolphins don't draft him. I would hate to see that guy going up against our UFA and late round pick OTs. *shiver* Don't strain your brain. I doubt you will find a list of players that were labeled with motivation effort issues so identifying success stories from that non existent list is pointless. The first mistake is that you believe the hype about his "motivation issues". I think his numbers speak pretty well for themselves INCLUDING his ridiculous measureables.

You have official found the one and only source of supposedly bad information regarding Coples and the senior bowl. Guess we should throw out every other talent evaluater that says he is the real deal and best defensive prospect in the draft.

What's not to get??? I'm 1000% serious when I say this. The guy is 6'6" 281 LBs and is considered the best defensive prospect in the draft! Were you one of those guys that criticized Orakpo because of the school he went to or other meaningless dribble? The guy is a beast. We would be lucky as hell if he dropped to us. If you thought he didn't impress in the senior bowl and all the activities and disagree with almost literally EVERY scout and talent evaluater there who do you think actually stood out? I mean really, WHO? Are we talking Upshaw's 15 second coverage sack? Come on man. You guys with your ridiculous agendas are crazy. I like Upshaw as he looks like he would be a solid contributor but he isn't going to rack up sacks running unabated to the QB like he did in college. I think he will be our pick but if for some reason Coples falls you take him and don't think twice. Haven't seen enough of Ingram yet but his stock could rise depending on the combine.

We have been VERY active in free agency. We just don't pay for any ELITE talent. We scrape the bottom of the barrel for UFAs and practice squad players and then stick them out on the field while everyone hopes they turn into a star.

My point in bringing up the 0.9 yd/game was to point out that it is almost a tie in the 3rd category and Dez is the clear leader in the other 2. Riiiiight. Stats are irrelevant. Let's just give everyone a fat contract and a gold star because they tried hard. It's crap like that that is making our children ill prepared for the world they will grow up and live in. If you're good you will have the grades or stats to prove it. Worlds apart or slight difference Dez Bryant is a better WR. He's technically not even the #1 target on his team. See what I am saying? Again I like our guys and hope they do well but when we compare them to other teams that have REAL talent....our guys don't stack up. You can't have a probowler at every position. I understand that. Those guys may be effective in our system which is to flood the defense with passing options but that doesn't make them great WRs. Are they bad...HELL NO! Are there many that are better....HELL YES!

Again you are focusing on one stat at a time. To stick with your Dez Bryant example Dez is better than SJ in 2 of the 3 categories you mentioned as being important and he trails in the 3rd category of yards by a whopping 76 yards. To take your tactic and you actually look at yds/game considering Bryant missed games due to injury he is a whopping 0.9 yds/game behind SJ or about 11 inches a game. You are trying to look at the team in a vacuum which you can't. Nelson is in all likelihood the second best WR on this team. I wouldn't even argue that and as stated I like the guy and expect that he will improve. I can point to any guy who is the second best on say an arena league football team or a college football team. It doesn't mean they are NFL good. Talent is relevant to your peers. In relation to his peers Nelson is a good #3 but wouldn't start on MANY teams. What is so hard to understand about that? You can cheer for the guy, hope for his continued success as I do but do so with open eyes and also see what the stats tell you.

FIXED! Couldn't resist. LOL

I have no problem with what he has done or even giving the ball to his girl friend. He probably got some "extra attention" from her that you or I would give up an appendage for. I'm just telling people to hold their horses. He is the #2 on this team due to injury but is that really saying much? I think he has good potential and him being thrust into a starting role has probably helped accelerate his growth as it did with Spiller. What "really matters" is that we have grown so accustomed to mediocrity in Buffalo that we celebrate a guy who is putting up #3 WR stats compared to the rest of the league and our #1 ranks near the bottom 3rd of the top 32 WRs(#1s). These guys can improve but come on. Look at the WRs the great teams have. They have guys that have catching radii outside of their upper torso. We have a bunch of body snatchers that can't compare to other WRs that can catch outside their body or over their heads. Do you think Nelson would start for the Giants, Patriots, Packers, Saints or Lions? The answer is no unless you are fooling yourself. To be honest SJ would like be a #3 on any of those teams or possibly a #2. I'm talking all targets including the TEs. This is what we have come to accept. Why are we even talking about getting free agent or drafting WRs? Because what we have currently isn't good enough. We have guys that can improve and I have hope and have the expectation that THEY WILL but WR is NOT a strength on this team. Not by a long shot. Last 3rd of the top 32 (#1s). One #1 pass catcher per team. Exactly my point to him. If all you care about is yards then yes Dez Bryant is not as good of a WR as SJ. How about those things called TDs? OH?....You mean he scored more TDs and got more first downs? This is why I included both yardage and TDs while you tried to cherry pick one stat to attempt to illustrate some flaw in my logic. Thanks for reminding me of the importance of 1st down conversions where SJ ranks 24th in the league. I find it EXTREMELY funny that you mention not only yards but TDs and first down performance yet you omit any stats for TDs and first down performance. AGAIN, SJ is in the bottom 3rd of the top 32 pass catchers in the league. What is so hard to understand about that? I love the guy. I desperately want him back on this team but the facts is the facts. He ranks where he ranks.

What does there typo of SJ being a starter for 1 vs 2 years have to do with their assessment of our needs? Are you trying to discredit their spot on assessment because a couple of items didn't pass your irrelevant fact checker function? As the league has become a passing league apparently SJ is experiencing a drop off in production at WR while the rest of the NFL is steadily improving which is evidenced by his drop in the rankings. Considering we pass more than we ever have this is particularly interesting. I did not get that you were comparing 2010 to 2011 respectively for each player as I didn't understand the relevance of doing so. I thought you were comparing their performance for this year. I'm glad you find some value comparing his performance this year to Lee's last year. I find infinitely more value in comparing his performance to the rest of the NFL to see how he stacks up. Nelson 2011 61st in yards 45th (~14 way tie) in TDs. Additionally lease please please point out where I say or intimate that Nelson is a bumbling, stumbling buffoon. That is YOUR sensationalist and polarizing statement not mine and I disagree with it. I like Nelson and have high hopes for him but lets not start calling him a play maker just yet eh? Nelson is one guy in what are usually 4 and 5 WR sets that doesn't get doubled. Basically he is a pretty good #3 WR as far as the rest of the NFL is concerned for now. Let's hope he continues to improve because I think there is something there. We are in agreement on Dareus then indeed. Glad we have the kid.

SJ our #1 as you put it ranked 2010 11th in yards and 7th in TDs (Pretty good when Lee Evans was drawing doubles every play) 2011 19th in yards and 21st in TDs (HUGE drop off without Lee Drawing all the attention) I think you need some Ginko because your memory appears to be fading! I'm glad you have an opinion you just happen to be completely and totally wrong about it. No big deal I do it all the time. It's a start. An INCREDIBLY poor one but a start. How about first you don't compare him to a guy that was injured all year and playing on a different team. THEN how about you compare him against...oh...say...all of the other WRs in the NFL OK?...Thanks! Again, where is the production???? Making some cheap shot lame comparison to an injured Lee Evans has no value. Never said that Dareus was drafted to be a Bruce Smith. In fact I said they are nothing alike. I did compare him to Suh who was a guy that I hoped Dareus would have the same impact as and role. He exceeded Suh's numbers this year which was a big deal to me.

Well I assume he is not doing the rankings but more reporting what his scouts say as "director". Still it is disheartening to know that McShay is just another face of what I thought was an independent source of information. As stated doesn't mean he is right or wrong it's just not an independent 3rd opinion on player rankings.

1) SJ became the #1 WR this year and performs in the bottom 1/3 of all WRs. 2) David Nelson can catch a perfectly thrown ball when he is left open but can't make catches above his head or away from his body like the Giants, Packers, Patriots and Saints WRs can. I think he has potential but lets not fool ourselves into thinking he is a play maker already. 3) We did switch to the 3-4 not the 4-3 as you stated 2 years ago. Seems like we are all capable of making slight over sights and mistakes. But ...yes...for the most part spot on. ROFLOL. Dude. Get real. Where is the PRODUCTION to go with those glowing words of praise? I have hopes for Nelson but to call him a "playmaker" that can't be covered well by a CB or LB is a big stretch for a 7th round draft pick right now. Dareus is NOT a Bruce Smith type guy. They are completely different players. Dareus killed it though as a rookie but as usual interior defensive lineman don't get the press. He was the teams leading sacker on a line the was pretty much devoid of talent. KW was hurt for the few games he did play and went on IR. Shawn "Goood Gamble" Merriman played all of about hand full of downs for us before going on IR leaving the rookie as the only concern along the defensive front. Let's look at Dareus' numbers compared to Suh who is consider to be one of if not the best in the game. Player__Tackles__Assists__Sacks Suh_____26_______10_______4.0 Dareus__32_______11_______5.5 Dareus out played Suh and Suh has one HELL of a better supporting cast!

Because they have an objective view Something that people too close to things sometimes lose.