rstencel

Doesnt look like hes been doing much cardio.

I wasn't meaning to imply that he would ever actually play at that weight, just that he would be one heck of an athlete if could get to it. What I meant it to say is that if he got in shape, and got to the 350 range. He would be much quicker at changing directions, and have quicker first step that is needed for LT. Doubt he was much less than 380 this year however, and he looked bigger this year than last to me.

From his own interview comments for one. Fact he would stand around so much in plays for another. Looked at tapes from last year, compared to this preseason, and noticed that he didn't have the hustle or follow through has shown in past. When play was away from him, he would hold his blocks, when no one rushed him he would look for someone to block, and finished his blocks frequently. This preseason he did allot of watching when play wasn't his way, and when he blocked, he only held for a few seconds then let go allot, rather than driving and or finishing. Can understand him not being able to keep up with a smaller guy sometimes, but if gets his hands on them, he should be able to finish them like has shown in past. Yes he wasn't very good with the Raiders. It looked like he just quit on them the last year he was there effort wise. He played good at times for them, but let his play tail off, and was getting a bit worse every year it seemed. I do feel he was pretty good with the Bills the last few years, wasn't an all-pro by any means, but more than held his own. Just like Dockery and Peters, he didn't seem to play with as much energy or desire, as had shown in past. Reminds me allot of the Raiders actually. Look at how many players have had their worst years when playing for Raiders lately. Shoot even Randy Moss look ordinary playing for them. Hopefully Bills aren't turning into Raiders East.

I'll give you he is slow and lumbering now. If you look at his foot work on tapes from last couple of years however he has shown fairly good quickness. He is athletically capable of playing LT if give him help, since he can slide out, and has strength to be out of position and still hold a block. however he needs to be in peak condition, due to his weight in order for his athletic abilities to show. He did not appear to be no wheres near as quick out of his stance as last year even. Really have to disagree that effort had nothing to do with it. Not putting the effort to get into shape is a reason for him to be so much slower than was last year. He would be much better if played at 315-320 range most likely, but has shown that he is capable of being serviceable even when playing 350 range, when he is in shape. I think he would have been OK for a season if he would have really put full effort forth, and been in top shape. Would have taken the whole off-season most likely however, as well as some good coaching.

Very true, he is a very good athlete, even when overweight. That is why Bills had confidence that he could make the switch. He played OK there last year as well. With a full training camp, he has the athletic ability to be able to play the position, not at an all-pro level, but well enough to make it through a season. However they didn't anticipate his lack of motivation or desire at making the move, or that he would not put his heart into it, so they had no real choice to move on and step up the development of Bell, really.

You are right, people pointed out that he played better then Peters last year, and that Peters probably would have never played up to his potential again with the Bills, due to his lack of desire to play for them anymore. Don't think saying that someone played better means that someone is better though, as Peters at his best is pretty darn good. I am one of the people that is glad we got as much as we did for Peters, and feel that he never would have put out much effort as long as he was still with Buffalo. I personally would rather have a good player that wants to play and gives his all, than a great player who is just going through the motions. I felt that Walker would be able to man the position OK till someone better came along, but didn't anticipate that he also would only go through the motions. While I don't think Bell is necessarily ready to step into the starting roll, I would rather have a enthusiastic, motivated player that has potential to be very good, than a overweight out of shape player who doesn't want to be here, or an overweight player that doesn't want to play the position and lets it show in his play. So even though Walker didn't work out, I am behind the trade of Peters, and feel we traded him just in time to get the most value back for him. If he would have continued playing like last year, we would have been in far worse shape than we are now with Bell, in my opinion.

Exactly, there were allot of people thinking line would be better overall, but don't remember anyone saying he was better than Peters. Maybe better effort was expect than him, but even that didn't turn out to be true.

Good point. Its the coaches job to put the players in a position to be successful, and the players job to execute. If the players are used properly, or not put in positions where their talents are best utilized, odds are good they wont be very successful.

Hangartner was a good player for Carolina, and they didn't want to loose him, but had no choice because of cap issues. He wasn't a starter on their line, but played well when saw the field. He is an above average guard in my opinion, but only an average center, since looses leverage when snapping at times, but definitely consider him an upgrade. Understand why they want a veteran at center this year, since playing no huddle, would be tough for a rookie to call the line plays and learn to play at this level in one camp. I think he will be playing guard next year, since they will most likely move wood to center next year once he learns all the line calls and gets some experience under his belt. At least that is what I am hoping, because think Wood is more suited to play center, and have seen how well Hangartner played at guard while with the Panthers.

The difference in that is that these were rookie contracts, and they already had re-signed him to an extension since he signed his rookie contract.

They did after he reached the 2 years left on his contract, not the first year where he did the hold out. That would be the point that contract reached a point makes sense to redo, but the bad blood was already there by that point. The Bills didn't cave, they did exactly what they said they would do before he held out. They told him they would consider renegotiating next year, but not before then, and they didn't negotiate till that year. Don't get how you come to the theory that teams shouldn't renegotiate a contract that was just signed the year before, means that half the Bills should negotiate? I am not sure you are reading my post with this reply cause it does not make any sense to me.

Come on, we all know Wilson will fire a coach in a heart beat, if he refuses to fire a coordinator when he calls for it.

So your saying that if you sign a contract and think worth more even before reach the halfway point of that contract, its OK to hold out? If they caved to him at the point he originally started his holdouts, they would have had half their team hold out. Very few teams will give anyone a raise with more than 2 years left in their contract, if any. If he was still on his original contract, and hadn't signed an extension the year before, I would have agreed with you, but in this case, I have to side on the Bills side. Not only do I agree with their side, but would have been very upset had they caved that first year. The 2nd year was the time to do the negotiation, since was at the right point in the contract, but then he had already thrown in the towel the year before, so he lowered his value to the team, but felt he made the pro bowl anyway, so he must have been the best ever. Basically it was a no win situation, since he made the pro bowl with half effort, so chances of him putting in the work again, no matter how much money they showed him, was very low at that point. Basically, I think he is a very good player, but think only choice was to let him go while he still had value, since he would never be the player he was 2 years ago as long as he stayed here in my opinion. And feel like he screwed up signing a new contract, knowing that there was a very good chance that he would be moved to LT very soon after signing that same contract, not the Bills.

So would you rather them stick with their plan, even after they realized it was flawed, or try to do what they could to fix the problem, once they woke up.

Well C isn't really his best position. He was a pretty good guard, but only average center while playing for the Panthers. If only they would have drafted a good young C so he could have played at his best position of guard.

Bell had a bad back for allot of the time, so keeping him for the reps was part of it. Plus the fact they were hoping to get someone to trade for him was most likely part of it too. They also had to weigh the other T's capabilities to see if any young players other than Bell could fill the backup spot if any starters got hurt. Part may be the old OC may have wanted him, and AVP wants more athletic tackles. It may just be it takes them a long time to make the tough decisions. Or maybe they said, if hes not going to try and be a good LT, we are going to wait to the last minute to cut him, so he doesn't get picked up by anyone, out of spite. Its not like they haven't done anything like this before at last minute under Jaron. Remember a young player who played tackle for most of training camp, then was moved to guard in the middle, and was announced as the starting RG after the last preseason game. He worked out pretty good.

The only way to get a good veteran offensive line that has played together for long period of time, is to start them around same time frame and age, together when their young to let them grow into that together. They may be able to do that with this line, since they are all young, and most have allot of potential to grow. The hard part will be signing them all when they all get good, but we can just pretend that will happen for the sake of this point. Most of the good lines in the league now, started with a few key players starting as rookies and growing in the job, and a few, (like Colts, Giants and Patriots) started as a real young line with mostly rookies and unknowns, and grew into a good line. So if never give in and give them a chance while young, will never get to the point where have a stable line that has a chance to stay together for long period of time and grow into a good one. Not saying they look like had a good plan in place, and made all the right moves, but I for one, am happy that we have a young talented group of lineman that could grow together into a good line. I know there will be growing pains, and they will look awful at times, but think by end of year will be good, and in a couple of years think they will be very good, if they can keep them together.

Depends on wording of trade paperwork, but failure to report is usually a term that can be used to viod a deal.

Who had just finished signing a contract extension, that wasn't even at halfway point of. He should have been pissed at his representation for signing him to that contract, if anyone.

Sounds like a real successful school of thought, and the same type of thinking that has had us signing bad castoffs from other teams, and keeping players like Kelsay as starters. Bench everyone who hasn't played yet, only play the veterans no matter how good they are.

Thats easy, cause Peters didnt want to play here, and would have done a simular lackluster effort he gave us last year. Not like we had a great line with him, so if you arent succussful with someone, and they dont want to stay, how is keeping them a good thing? Find out the guy who replaced him doesn't really want to play the positions, and just goes through the motions also. Cut him and actually have players who want to play, and give full effort on the field, rather than ones who just are there to collect a pay check.

Not to mention how much energy and motivation Butler/Scott showed on field/practice, and how hard they worked to make the team. While Walker appeared to be going through the motions, didn't look to be giving his best efforts all the time, and was telling people how much he wanted to play LT. If want to do a rebuilding job and change the atmosphere, getting rid of the malcontents is a good start.

I am not exited by this, but not surprised either. There where multiple clues this may be coming. Jaron seriously praised Bell, and didn't back Walker, which isn't normal for him. Walker didn't exactly sound excited about playing LT, and had a few interviews were he went out of his way to express how much he was displeased by this. I think if he would have kept it in house, and/or pushed to stay a RT from the beginning things would have been different. Think he doomed himself with his lack of effort and motivation at LT, for someone with his paycheck. Considering they traded away their last starter at that position for basically same reason, didn't really have much of a choice but to part ways.

+1 - They did mention they tried to trade him first.

Maybe their thought was, we will have a higher draft choice next year, lets use that one for our LT.