Campy Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 My point wasn't so much that sooo many people believed those things. It was more so that just because some people believed it to be ok, it didn't make it ok. All I am saying is, you are going to need to come up with a better argument than "half the country thinks it's ok" to tell me that homosexuality is less wrong than incest. 115041[/snapback] Gotcha'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Sorry but please share your beliefs with us,...tell us what a wondeful christian you are on a daily basis. I was raised to believe that my beliefs are something that you do not speak out about in public 115048[/snapback] I apologize, I wasn't trying to say what a horrible Christian you are. I was simply trying to clarify the point Fergy was trying to make. He was trying to say you can't call yourself a practicing Catholic if you don't believe everything Catholics believe. (Pro-life, abstinance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cåblelady Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. 112088[/snapback] Hmmm....not ONE mention from the New Testament? These laws were all from the Old Testament.......BC. That's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 I would like to know where you got those numbers from. 114996[/snapback] He pulled them out of his ass. [/irony] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 IU'm sorry you opinion has to be right.........our opinions could not hold any water 115050[/snapback] Haha, my post actually said that something can't be true just because it is someone's opinion. I am asking for you to give me a reason why homosexuality is ok and incest is not other than saying "more people think homosexuality is ok". No one has yet to do that. This tells me that there would be no way to keep incest out of marriage if we allow homosexuals to get married. What would we tell people who want to marry their brothers and sisters?? "Uh... ummmm... well, not enough people think this is ok to do, so we can't allow it??" After homosexuals are allowed to wed, a snowball effect will occur forcing the country to allow pretty much anyone to get married. UNLESS, someone here can tell me what makes incest and homosexuality different, other than the current opinions of Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 It was an impossible request to fulfill, gmac. Libs are always surprised when Bush isn't as extreme as their talking points tell them. Once they have to fend for themselves, it all falls apart. 115056[/snapback] I have already responded to that post, but I'll repeat the question I asked in my response: Does Bush oppose gay marriage because of religious beliefs (which I believe would be misguided, but understandable), or does he just condone descrimination against homosexuals (which would be an abomination)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I apologize, I wasn't trying to say what a horrible Christian you are. I was simply trying to clarify the point Fergy was trying to make. He was trying to say you can't call yourself a practicing Catholic if you don't believe everything Catholics believe. (Pro-life, abstinance) 115062[/snapback] I understand that.....if I have a strong belief in my faith...that is all that matters...I feel God made us to be free thinkers....no I don't believe in every published Catholic belief or opinion, but no person will decide if my way of professing my faith is right or wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I understand that.....if I have a strong belief in my faith...that is all that matters...I feel God made us to be free thinkers....no I don't believe in every published Catholic belief or opinion, but no person will decide if my way of professing my faith is right or wrong 115073[/snapback] I respect that. It's better formulate your own beliefs rather than have a religion decide your beliefs for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I am asking for you to give me a reason why homosexuality is ok and incest is not other than saying "more people think homosexuality is ok". 115067[/snapback] I'll give you two, and you can twist whichever one you think will be easiest to try and justify your opposition to gay marriage. Reason 1- Incest is a crime, homosexuality is not. Reason 2- Children born of incestuous couples have a much higher chance of birth defect than those born of homosexual couples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Haha, my post actually said that something can't be true just because it is someone's opinion. I am asking for you to give me a reason why homosexuality is ok and incest is not other than saying "more people think homosexuality is ok". No one has yet to do that. This tells me that there would be no way to keep incest out of marriage if we allow homosexuals to get married. What would we tell people who want to marry their brothers and sisters?? "Uh... ummmm... well, not enough people think this is ok to do, so we can't allow it??" After homosexuals are allowed to wed, a snowball effect will occur forcing the country to allow pretty much anyone to get married. UNLESS, someone here can tell me what makes incest and homosexuality different, other than the current opinions of Americans. 115067[/snapback] I simply feel that homosexuals are part of the fabric of our society...and yes I have very close gay friends that are living together, in a committed relationship. They have been together 15 years....they deserve rights afforded any other civil union. Its a standard of our society not to marry your sister, its also a standard not to have many wives or marry a pig, so no, it won't spiral out of control. Why does it bother you so much that a gay couple can get life insurance together. I wonder how many gays or lesbians are part of GWB's administration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I'll give you two, and you can twist whichever one you think will be easiest to try and justify your opposition to gay marriage. Reason 2- Children born of incestuous couples have a much higher chance of birth defect than those born of homosexual couples. 115079[/snapback] You can't be serious with this.... First of all, incestuous couples don't have to have babies. They could easily get married and not have kids. Second...could you please explain to me how homosexuals could ever give birth to a child??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Second...could you please explain to me how homosexuals could ever give birth to a child??? 115083[/snapback] InVitro fertilization or surrogate mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 You can't be serious with this.... First of all, incestuous couples don't have to have babies. They could easily get married and not have kids. Second...could you please explain to me how homosexuals could ever give birth to a child??? 115083[/snapback] Are you serious...how do you think that Rosie O'Donnell had her kids...two were adopted...one by vitro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I simply feel that homosexuals are part of the fabric of our society...and yes I have very close gay friends that are living together, in a committed relationship. They have been together 15 years....they deserve rights afforded any other civil union. Its a standard of our society not to marry your sister, its also a standard not to have many wives or marry a pig, so no, it won't spiral out of control. Why does it bother you so much that a gay couple can get life insurance together. I wonder how many gays or lesbians are part of GWB's administration 115082[/snapback] But was it once not a standard of our society not to marry someone of the same sex?? The point is, standards can change. I don't think letting some homosexual couples get life insurance is the problem, it is about the sanctity of marriage and the chaos that could ensue afterwards once the dam is broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 But was it once not a standard of our society not to marry someone of the same sex?? The point is, standards can change. I don't think letting some homosexual couples get life insurance is the problem, it is about the sanctity of marriage and the chaos that could ensue afterwards once the dam is broken. 115092[/snapback] So if wasn't a "marriage," but some other form of legally recognized committment, that'd be cool by you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Are you serious...how do you think that Rosie O'Donnell had her kids...two were adopted...one by vitro 115091[/snapback] Well in vitro would not be a homosexual couples baby, it would be a baby from a man and a woman. If you want to do that, couldn't a incestual couple simply get in vitro fertilization from an outside source other than in the family and have a completely healthy baby?? It goes both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 So if wasn't a "marriage," but some other form of legally recognized committment, that'd be cool by you? 115096[/snapback] I suppose I may be able to live with that, but the problem would still be, where would the line be drawn? If they are allowed to have equal rights, who else would ask for them as well? Roommates? A son supporting his mother? A couple of best friends trying to cheat the system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 But was it once not a standard of our society not to marry someone of the same sex?? The point is, standards can change. I don't think letting some homosexual couples get life insurance is the problem, it is about the sanctity of marriage and the chaos that could ensue afterwards once the dam is broken. 115092[/snapback] Yes the standards change...some every day...I want my gay friends to be recognized as a couple in society with equal rights as any hetersexual in a union...it does not have to be through marriage, but if it is recognized by marriage I have no problem. Please explain the millions of Americans that have little respect for the institute of marriage by getting divorced....hey I even friends that consider themselves part of the Christian Right...some divorced once some divorced twice. How can that be explained. In today's society, obviously marriage is not revered as in decades past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cåblelady Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I suppose I may be able to live with that, but the problem would still be, where would the line be drawn? If they are allowed to have equal rights, who else would ask for them as well? Roommates? A son supporting his mother? A couple of best friends trying to cheat the system? 115099[/snapback] I'd like an equitable share of my ex-husband's benefits, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I suppose I may be able to live with that, but the problem would still be, where would the line be drawn? If they are allowed to have equal rights, who else would ask for them as well? Roommates? A son supporting his mother? A couple of best friends trying to cheat the system? 115099[/snapback] I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think a reasonable American would be considering equal rights with their roommate or mother...as liberal as I am..please don't make me have a union with my mom. no matter what the laws of this land are...people will always try to cheat the system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 In today's society, obviously marriage is not revered as in decades past 115101[/snapback] Well maybe not, but is that any reason to just let it all go? If marriage means nothing, why are so many homosexuals trying so hard to get married? A lot of them will not be happy with a simple civil union, they want to actually be married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I'd like an equitable share of my ex-husband's benefits, please. 115102[/snapback] My ex-wife got 10% of my Navy retirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 when did the term sodomites get replaced by the term homosexual or gay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 when did the term sodomites get replaced by the term homosexual or gay? 115109[/snapback] Honestly what percentage of this nation is made up of sodomist??? I think its over 50% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cåblelady Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 when did the term sodomites get replaced by the term homosexual or gay? 115109[/snapback] I think it was well after Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I suppose I may be able to live with that, but the problem would still be, where would the line be drawn? If they are allowed to have equal rights, who else would ask for them as well? Roommates? A son supporting his mother? A couple of best friends trying to cheat the system? 115099[/snapback] Roommates and best friend can get married/civill-unioned. If they do it because one has good health insurance through their job for example, that's better than one of them mooching off of the system, but I don't see that happening. It hasn't happened with male-female couples racing to the courthouse to tie the knot before the judge. Undoing it can be too expensive and time consuming, and the fact that (in most states) both parties have a 50% equity in each others' property would prohibit casual unions in homosexual couples just as they currently do now in hetero couples. As far as the son with the mother, being that they're immediate family, I don't believe there'd be any reason for them to do that, and it's also illegal in most states for one to marry one's mother/son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 when did the term sodomites get replaced by the term homosexual or gay? 115109[/snapback] Outside of Bilblical references, I've never heard homosexuals referred to as sodomites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Outside of Bilblical references, I've never heard homosexuals referred to as sodomites. 115126[/snapback] http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...omite&x=15&y=13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Honestly what percentage of this nation is made up of sodomist??? I think its over 50% 115113[/snapback] point being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 point being? 115130[/snapback] Apparantly, morals are decided by what the majority of people's actions are, instead of morals deciding people's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 point being? 115130[/snapback] Ok ..reword the question...how many Christian Rightest have committed sodomy..don't ask a Catholic...its too fun, we live for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Apparantly, morals are decided by what the majority of people's actions are, instead of morals deciding people's actions. 115143[/snapback] How did this thread spiral into sodomy??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 point being? 115130[/snapback] if you tell me a Christian only have sex in the missionary position, i'll vomit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...omite&x=15&y=13 115129[/snapback] I know what it means, I've never heard or seen it used in anything outside of a Biblical reference. That might lead one to believe the word is archaic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I know what it means, I've never heard or seen it used in anything outside of a Biblical reference. That might lead one to believe the word is archaic. 115157[/snapback] i guess the point i am trying to make as i followed the thread was this: when a people group is labeled by a term that is offensive, and or known to be offensive by an entire culture that group changes the term....to make it less offensive. gay people do not want to be known as sodomites because that is an offensive term...and if you read the story of Lot and his family in Sodom and Gomorrah, you would see (and i am not saying you have never read it Genesis 19), what a repulsive lifestyle it truly is. In fact the term "sodomy" is far from archaic as I think it is on the books as a crimminal act. ofiba is indicating (and i agree) that a culture becomes numb to a un-natural act...and after a while it begins to accept it. Are people in incestuous relationships (outside of West Virgina....ok...i am sorry...that was not nice), the next group to come up with a less offensive politically correct term? Some educators and psyhcologists are already coming up with new words to describe pedophiles. why? because they want their behavior to be more acceptable. IMHO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 if you tell me a Christian only have sex in the missionary position, i'll vomit. 115154[/snapback] you are ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 you are ridiculous. 115174[/snapback] your sense of humor is truely lacking tonight.....smile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFerguson Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I was raised to believe that my beliefs are something that you do not speak out about in public 115048[/snapback] Then why are you speaking out about your beliefs on a public message board? Also, ofiba, it's very anal(pun intended) of you to pick apart every last bit of the argument against homosexuality. Being gay is a sin. In the fundamental Christian eyes, all sins are equal. Why aren't you crusading against liars, or going for a Constitutional ban on impure thoughts? What makes homosexuality such a hot button issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 I would like to know where you got those numbers from. Also, just because a lot of people believe it, doesn't make it right. You could argue that half the country once thought slavery was perfectly fine. Many people in Germany thought that killing Jews was perfectly fine. There is no rule stating that the more people believe something, the more true it becomes. Also, maybe not many think incest is ok now, but who knows how they will feel in the future. I would bet that 200 years ago, many many less people found homosexuality unacceptable. Does that mean that homosexuality was any worse than it is now? No, it just means people changed their opinion. Could you please tell me what makes homosexuality better than incest? What makes it more wrong to do? Don't say because it would mess up their kids, cause they could get married and still not have kids. 114996[/snapback] If you are unwilling or unable to see the difference between half of the country thinking homosexuality is okay with them (in general terms) and a few thousand people thinking that incest is okay (vs. 99.9% of the country thinking it is not only a crime but unacceptable), than go right ahead and keep your head in the sand. There is no reason to carry this discussion on any further with you. NO ONE outside of a portion of the extremely few people who actually practice incest or poligamy think that it is fine or acceptable, and approximately a 125-150 plus millon people (half the country) who do not practice or have any interest whatsoever in participating in homosexuality think that homosexuality is fine or acceptable behavior for those who lean that way. Again, your slippery slope argument is just plain embarrassing in this case. A lot of people think gay marriage is not acceptable, and that is understandable, and that is what the great debate is about. And likely there will be some compromise. Civil unions without calling it marriage is the likely result. But there is no great call for incest or poligamy legislation and there never will be. Don't even go there because you'll embarrass yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ Bills backer Posted November 13, 2004 Author Share Posted November 13, 2004 wow - some folks take the Bible WAY to seriously... As for the homosexual argument, say or think what you will, you're stuck with it whether you like it or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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