BELL OTS during OTAs

[The Senator]

Yep. Like life there are risks with just about anything important one does. The question generally is one of managing those risk well to keep liabilities low and to maximize upside opportunities and minimize downside.

 

The Jason Peters case is a good case study (apropos actually since they are both OLers) which I think indicates a lot.

 

Peters and Bell are similar in that they both were athletes with great demographic upsides who as of yet have not made a showing against the highest quality DL opposition to make it a no-brainer to try to lock 'em up contractually.

 

Peters had zero experience as an OL player but showed incredibly soft hands and athleticism to attract interest (it surprised many he went undrafted as a TE prospect. However, what Mouse saw in him that he was the most talented big man he ever coached drew significant interest. Peters appreciated the Bills being willing to sign him after he went UDFA. Likewise, though I am sure Bell is under no illusions that he owes loyalty to the Bills (in this man's game the fact is he does not owe the Bills a ton as yes we gave him a chance, but no we have not committed to him long term though his 3 year deal versus a 2 year deal expresses great interest.

 

Just as Peters could have flown the coop to elsewhere if someone offered him a permanent deal while he was on our PS, other moves made far more sense when opponents came sniffing around. Put Bell on the PS, he and everyone else knows he needs a good year (or more) of pro practice to get him not to lunge too much when his blocks take him to the second level (or likely when even a second year player will try to suck him in to being too aggressive and pivot off an aggressive attack by him to rush the passer or make a tackle. From the scouting reports I read, Bell is a tall man and of course naturally plays up high and like any rookie is pretty vulnerable to being attacked by a even a young vet who has learned how to maintain a low center of gravity. He will get better over time almost certainly, but though his frame can easily take the growth which goes on being on a Pro diet with Pro weight training, as enthused as all are by Bell he is a good year of more away from being the LT we would want.

 

Might Bell simply leave if Belicheck came to his PS door and promised him a roster spot. Sure. However, Bell would be acting like a sleazy varmint if he simply booked on thw Bills without giving them some chance to meet the BB or other team's offer. In fact, if he proved so low grade a personality that in response to the Bills giving him a 3 year rather than the standard 2 year offer, quite frankly I do not think we would want the puss bucket that did not even give us a chance to match the BB or other idiots' offer.

 

Just as with Peters when other teams began sniffing around and offering him a roster spot instead of mere PS status if he jumped teams, Peters first move was to say thanks and he would get back to them and his second move was to call te Bills and demand a roster spot from us unless we signed him.

 

The bottomline is that if we put Bell on the PS (which all signs point to him needing a year at least to be there because as potentially talented as he is, opposing vets would rape him if he were to start.

 

In fact, the main reason I think BB might want to hint that he is gonna sign Bell off our PS is in an attempt to sucker the Bills into using a roster spot on a player who we would never start. I know you are hyped on Bell and I also am hyped on his potential. However, i think the best analogy for him is that of a cut-rate Ryan Denney. Denney also was an impressive specimen, but as a tall guy he was simply unplayable as a position player because he had not yet learned how to bend properly to maintain his leverage against a vet. He was simply inactive almost his entire rookie year. Bell is talented but not only suffers from the tall man's disease in terms of leverage (he can learn it in a year or less of practice against pros) but apparently when he does get put on the ground he is a little slow in recovering and getting back into the play.

 

He has done well in his brief collegiate career because he was simply bigger and stronger than most of his good but lower than top tier collegiate opponents. However, when he comes to the NFL, like alll rookies he will find out it is a different world playing against the vets. They not only are at top tier collegiate level but they are the best of the best. You really are demanding too much of a rookie who has not played much at all, who there is consensus agreement among all the scouts (unless you did not notice no one drafted him) that he is a good year away.

 

Put him on the PS and like Peters if someone comes sniffing around AND he is good enough at PS to command a roster spot then sign him to the active roster. If he is such a low life that he would not give the Bills a chance to match the offer then good riddance that he is gone because even Peters who proved to be someone willing to not meet his contract at least was honest enough to give the Bills right of first refusal when other team's cam knocking.

 

In fact, the key to Peters getting a lot interest was most likely not because the rest of the NFL knew right from the start he would be a Pro Bowler (if they did and even if they thought so for Bell they would have drafted him) the key was that word got out that Peters was unblockable on ST and this is what made him worth a roster spot.

 

Thus if you want to make the argument that the Bills are risking Bell unless they sign him to the permanent roster, this would actually only be true if there were good indicators he is a good ST player. All the arguments you make that he is a solid blocking prospects are all good reasons why you PS the guy. It would take a solid demonstration that he is an ST god to get anyone serious about giving him a roster spot this year.

 

If folks are interested in that then actually the PS waiver is likely the bigger risk we would be taking, but as every other team in the league has already recently decided not to draft him the chances of a waiver pick up are small. The chances of someone signing him off the PS are there but likewise the Bills will get a shot at matching any offer unless Bell is a complete lowlife. With is missionary parents background my guess is that he is a solid guy and the Bills (having already graced him with a long-term contract will get that ability to match any deal.

 

fixed

[DazedandConfused]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.

Time to get off your high horse there Pokey. You make it sound like I'm demanding a starting spot for him. I am simply saying that the rush to shove him to the PS because he's a UDFA is short sighted. They have these things in the NFL known as backup linemen to add depth to a position in case a starter gets injured. I am saying he should be given the chance to earn one of those spots in training camp before the PS chants start. If he went to the PS and BB did come sniffing around, the Bills would have to sign him to the active roster or lose him to a division rival. Now, if they decided to match the offer, where would they plug him in? Maybe as a backup lineman and special teamer (just where I suggested he would fit in). Don't trash the young man's character until you know more about him and don't dismiss his skills against NFL talent until you've seen him in action against NFL talent. Try basing your comments on knowledge rather than supposition.

I don't dismiss him at all. He should get the same chance everybody else gets to win a job on the field. The odds of what has happened in the past suggest strongly that he will not make the active roster on this team and that he is a project. He is a player who undeniably has the physical size necessary to play the game, and a lack of experience that oddly may provide him a leg up as he will be soaking up football knowledge quicker than all get out.

 

I do not dismiss him at all.

 

However, though the past does not determine the future and total statistical experience does not determine outcomes for one player (one need only look at Jason Peters bank account to see that) one is simply foolish to ignore the reality that Bell though a tremendous talent will be achieving a great victory if her "merely" makes the practice squad.

 

Any declaration that he is destined to be a starter for the Bills anytime this year (and actually in the next two years) seems little more than wishful thinking. Lightening does have to strike somewhere so no one can rationally predict where it will fall. Maybe Bell makes the squad in 09, but if he does this will have little to do with his potential skills as a position player, like Jason Peters it will have a lot to do with his ST play.

 

I actually do not doubt this young man's character (in fact as he was raised by parents gutsy enough to raise the kid overseas and do a missionary stint overseas I think the Bills can pretty clearly bank on this young man's character and that is why you put him on the PS.

 

The Bills have shown good faith in this project by signing him to a 3 year deal. It strikes me as very good coaching and development to let this young man know he is on three year track of production for the Bills as demonstrated by this longer term contract. Some football first idiots might put this project on a two years or you are gone track (and they would be true football fools if their development goals for this project expected him to make the roster and contribute to the Bills in this season. Even though the conventional wisdom is that a 1st round draft pick should start his first year or he is a disappointment, the actual reality seems to be actually only slightly more half of even 1st round choices are starters the beginning of their second year.

 

In this case Bell was not even a solid enough project to command a draft pick. Bill Belicheck and the entire rest of the league have already made a demonstrable decision that Bell was not even worth a lowly 7th round pick. And in light of this factual result you are worried that BB or somebody in the rest of the league is going to reverse their past actual decision and guarantee this UDFA a roster spot?

 

Maybe with great care and development by the Bills staff AND some outstanding ST play which the unblockable Peters used to force his way onto the Bills roster may be this could happen, but you gotta admit this is a big huge IF.

 

As far as the risk that someone like BB will snap him up. Maybe. Its possible like any of us getting toasted by a lightening strike is possible.

 

However, as far as Bell goes it ain't even raining. BB will not sign Bell to a roster spot off the Bills PS unless Bell is a shiftless vagrant who is willing to ignore the fact that the Bills signed him to a 3 year deal instead of the standard 2. Do YOU really think Bell is shiftless enough that after the Bills showed the faith in him to put him on a 3 year plan that he would return that favor of faith by not giving the Bills a chance to match and exceed any BB offer.

 

If he is that characterless then I wish him well and ask him not to let the door hit him on the way out.

 

The signs point to him having higher character than to allow himself to be spirited off in the dead of season without a word and I am not worried about that because even if it was BB who stole him from us then I would say good riddance.

 

I look forward to watching Bell develop in the next couple of years and hope like heck that the braintrust is not silly enough to even try to sell an expectation of his even making the active squad this year (much less doing the near impossible going from UDFA to starter,

 

Sure a good person sets high and sometimes even impossible standards for his teammates. However, aspiring to make the active roster (a big maybe for a UDFA) as a rookie may be a nice thing for a motivated player to quietly shoot for himself. However, to have this as the expectation by outside parties is simply psychotic.

[ChasBB]

practice squad rules

 

a player under contract to a club as a Practice Squad player is completely free to sign a contract with another NFL club during the season in order to be on the second club's Active/Inactive (i.e., 53 man) list. A practice squad player may not sign an NFL Player Contract with his Club’s next opponent later than 4:00 p.m., New York time, on the sixth day preceding the game (except in bye weeks, when the prohibition commences on the tenth day preceding the game).If another club signs a Practice Squad player to its 53 man roster it does not have to provide any sort of compensation to the player's former club but it generally must keep the player on the 53 man roster for at least 3 weeks, thereby mandating that he earns the minimum first year salary for said 3 week period.

 

NFL considers 3 weeks to be a full year, so that way the player would have to make a full years pay of 53 man roster pay

Thanks for info

[Big Daddy JC]

Sure a good person sets high and sometimes even impossible standards for his teammates. However, aspiring to make the active roster (a big maybe for a UDFA) as a rookie may be a nice thing for a motivated player to quietly shoot for himself. However, to have this as the expectation by outside parties is simply psychotic.

 

Is it not also blindly defeatist to declare him worthy only of PS status before the pads have ever been put on? I say let them work out the pecking order on their merits proven in live competition. BTW, you didn't answer my question of what do the Bills do if another team tries to sign him off the PS. If they decide he's worth keeping, what do they have to do?

[Lurker]

And in light of this factual result you are worried that BB or somebody in the rest of the league is going to reverse their past actual decision and guarantee this UDFA a roster spot?

If he's not overwhelmed and shows progress in the five preseason games, I could certainly see a team signing him to their active roster, the way the Bill carried Demetius Bell last year.

[Big Daddy JC]

If he's not overwhelmed and shows progress in the five preseason games, I could certainly see a team signing him to their active roster, the way the Bill carried Demetius Bell last year.

 

That's all I'm saying.

[Big Daddy JC]

Is it not also blindly defeatist to declare him worthy only of PS status before the pads have ever been put on? I say let them work out the pecking order on their merits proven in live competition. BTW, you didn't answer my question of what do the Bills do if another team tries to sign him off the PS. If they decide he's worth keeping, what do they have to do?

 

I guess DazedandConfused had to go off and ponder the question...

[zazie]

That's all I'm saying.

Could happen. Strange that so many guys that seem like futile picks go in the last 2 rounds, and this guy is still there, undrafted, and seems to be getting significant interest league wide.

[Big Daddy JC]

Could happen. Strange that so many guys that seem like futile picks go in the last 2 rounds, and this guy is still there, undrafted, and seems to be getting significant interest league wide.

 

The attention isn't too surprising since he has the uncoachables (big, fast and intelligent) everything else can be coached into him. Not getting drafted in the latter rounds is kind of odd until you realize how many "skill position" players were picked. I guess teams wanted to load up on "skill" players because so many wash out.

[zazie]

The attention isn't too surprising since he has the uncoachables (big, fast and intelligent) everything else can be coached into him. Not getting drafted in the latter rounds is kind of odd until you realize how many "skill position" players were picked. I guess teams wanted to load up on "skill" players because so many wash out.

I guess that must be it.

 

Lets hope DJ does not destroy this guy also with his substandard coaching. If I was Joel I would have looked at that aspect before signing with the bills. Glad he did not take it into account.

[Big Daddy JC]

I guess that must be it.

 

Lets hope DJ does not destroy this guy also with his substandard coaching. If I was Joel I would have looked at that aspect before signing with the bills. Glad he did not take it into account.

 

I haven't heard any reports of sub standard coaching by the O line staff.

[zazie]

I haven't heard any reports of sub standard coaching by the O line staff.

Top down is general rule.

[Lurker]

Top down is general rule.

Would that explain your contributions to TSW thus far?

[Big Daddy JC]

Would that explain your contributions to TSW thus far?

 

*Tony Soprano voice*

Chu talkin to ME?

[Lurker]

*Tony Soprano voice*

Chu talkin to ME?

Does your name start with a z?

[Big Daddy JC]

Does your name start with a z?

 

It depends on the language used.

[Big Daddy JC]

Back to the original topic for this thread... Has anyone heard how the Bells are doing in the OTAs?

[zazie]

Back to the original topic for this thread... Has anyone heard how the Bells are doing in the OTAs?

Actually it is anopther weeks and the OL has gone unmentioned in the OTA reports.

 

Hey Chris Brown it was great to hear about all the skill positions but a few words on the importatnt topic of the Oline would be nice too in the OTA daily reports..

[Sisyphean Bills]

Funny you should ask about Joel Bell. Tyler Dunne just wrote a decent piece about him for the OTH:

http://www.oleantimesherald.com/articles/2...7e099748704.txt

Sounds like an opening day starter.

[ans4e64]

Actually it is anopther weeks and the OL has gone unmentioned in the OTA reports.

 

Hey Chris Brown it was great to hear about all the skill positions but a few words on the importatnt topic of the Oline would be nice too in the OTA daily reports..

 

I don't know, but I hope none of them are playing LT on the second unit. Every single write up of practice there is always a "Maybin around the edge for a would be sack on Hamdan."

 

Never fails. I guess its good for our pass rush, bad for our o-line.