Patriots new hire

[merlin]

Remember what happened the last time Ralph hired a former (and highly regarded) GM who was working at ESPN at the time?

 

I think it's a question of checks and balances. You need 2 or 3 people in the FO making joint decisions (like the GM, HC, and head of scouting) to make sure no one person goes out and does something completely crazy (like drafting McGahee with a #1)! When Donahoe was here, there wasn't anyone like that (at least, no one strong enough to stand up and say, "Hey, that's crazy, and here's why ..."). Of course, with someone like Donahoe, who couldn't get along with Cowher, maybe that never would have been possible ... he wants total control, and so far, there's not been another team willing to give that to him. But I'm pretty sure Belicheat can hold his own with Reese .... don't have that some amount of confidence that Jauron could have.

 

GO BILLS!

[merlin]

personally I think Reese is an idiot - but only from watching him on ESPN. I'm sure he'll do fine in NE for a few seasons seeing as he only needs to hang on to the talent they already have. He'll probably retire before NE has to worry about replacing Brady, Moss, Welker, Seymour, or Wilfork.

 

He's the genius who decided drafting Pac Man Jones was a good idea ....

[Willis990]

Yes, lets compare stats between Ryan and Cassel. I guess we live in the make believe world where newengland* and Atlanta are similar franchises and each QB has the same great supporting cast.

 

As for cassel, lets see them franchise him. Because as soon as he signs the tender, they're on the hook paying him 14 million. At that point he becomes untradeable.

 

 

Hey genius. They rip up the tender and the team that trades for him signs him to a new deal. This deal is worked out before a trade happens. Now of course Matt Cassell has to agree to the deal but he won't get 14 million a year for 5 years. He will probably get in the neighborhood of $50-55 million for 5 years.

[VOR]

Atlanta was able to provide Ryan with not only one of the best rushing attacks in the league but also with an OL that barely let the opposition lay their hands on him. I wouldn't exactly say that Ryan was without competant supporting players on offense.

The opposition barely laid their hands on Brady last year with the exact same O-line. And the Patriots' rushing attack averaged 10 fewer yards per game this year compared to the Falcons, while having the same yards per rush (4.4). Beyond that, no one would say the offenses were remotely comparable. Anyone would be hard-pressed to name the Falcons' 2nd WR, much less their 3rd WR and TE.

 

And I anticipated you comparing Cassel to Ryan, which is why I said " t's not like he was a rookie or 2nd year player and took an average offense playing a hard schedule and did what he did." Ryan was a rookie taking over a pedestrian offense whereas Cassel was a 4th year player taking over the greatest offense in NFL history.

 

You have it backwards.

 

The second Cassel signs his tender he's under contract to the Pats and they can do whatever they wish with him.

 

It's when Cassel isn't under contract to them (ie when he hasn't signed the tag tender) that they can't trade him. They can, however, choose not to match an offer some team might give to Cassel, and receive two 1st rounds picks as compensation.

 

By all accounts the Pats have more than enough money to absorb the tag amount into their salary cap structure so that's not a problem for them.

Cassel becomes untradeable once he signs the franchise tender, because I'm betting (despite the stupidity of some GM's) that no team will want to pay $14M a year for him, plus the huge signing bonus, PLUS surrender draft picks, given he's only shown he can beat average to bad defenses. As I said, the NFLPA will demand that Cassel's agent look for deals that average over the franchise tender, because taking a deal below it decreases the franchise tag's value (and no franchise player has ever signed a contract that averages less than his franchise tender). They'll tell him "if you can't get a contract for at least the average of the franchise tender, you will have to take the 1-year tender."

 

Now if he were a RFA or still under contract for his 7th round salary, I'd say he'd be a shoo-in for a trade because teams would seriously consider giving him $6-7M a year and a commensurate signing bonus, plus surrender a draft pick. But $14M a year, plus a huge signing bonus, plus a draft pick or picks, given his struggles against good defenses (and the fact that he didn't play well against the Steelers, which was later in the season, means that "he'll only improve" is far from guaranteed)?

[C.Biscuit97]

He's the genius who decided drafting Pac Man Jones was a good idea ....

 

 

And Vince Young (who I thought would be a very good QB).

[Ramius]

The opposition barely laid their hands on Brady last year with the exact same O-line. And the Patriots' rushing attack averaged 10 fewer yards per game this year compared to the Falcons, while having the same yards per rush (4.4). Beyond that, no one would say the offenses were remotely comparable. Anyone would be hard-pressed to name the Falcons' 2nd WR, much less their 3rd WR and TE.

 

And I anticipated you comparing Cassel to Ryan, which is why I said " t's not like he was a rookie or 2nd year player and took an average offense playing a hard schedule and did what he did." Ryan was a rookie taking over a pedestrian offense whereas Cassel was a 4th year player taking over the greatest offense in NFL history.

 

 

Cassel becomes untradeable once he signs the franchise tender, because I'm betting (despite the stupidity of some GM's) that no team will want to pay $14M a year for him, plus the huge signing bonus, PLUS surrender draft picks, given he's only shown he can beat average to bad defenses. As I said, the NFLPA will demand that Cassel's agent look for deals that average over the franchise tender, because taking a deal below it decreases the franchise tag's value (and no franchise player has ever signed a contract that averages less than his franchise tender). They'll tell him "if you can't get a contract for at least the average of the franchise tender, you will have to take the 1-year tender."

 

Now if he were a RFA or still under contract for his 7th round salary, I'd say he'd be a shoo-in for a trade because teams would seriously consider giving him $6-7M a year and a commensurate signing bonus, plus surrender a draft pick. But $14M a year, plus a huge signing bonus, plus a draft pick or picks, given his struggles against good defenses (and the fact that he didn't play well against the Steelers, which was later in the season, means that "he'll only improve" is far from guaranteed)?

 

Thank You. There's no way the NFLPA lets Cassel sign a 14 million dollar franchise tag and then lets him sign for less money elsewhere. Forget what Cassel wants, the NFLPA will come down hard on the agent, and any agent that pisses off the NFLPA would be committing professional suicide. This is really an unprecedented situation. IIRC, in most situations where a player is tagged and then signs a long term deal or they do a tag and trade, the player usually signs for something about the value of the tag. Take last year; the pack tagged DT Corey Williams which carried a tender of 6.3 million. Williams deal with cleveland averages about 6.5 million per year.

[Pneumonic]

The opposition barely laid their hands on Brady last year with the exact same O-line. And the Patriots' rushing attack averaged 10 fewer yards per game this year compared to the Falcons, while having the same yards per rush (4.4). Beyond that, no one would say the offenses were remotely comparable. Anyone would be hard-pressed to name the Falcons' 2nd WR, much less their 3rd WR and TE.

 

And I anticipated you comparing Cassel to Ryan, which is why I said " t's not like he was a rookie or 2nd year player and took an average offense playing a hard schedule and did what he did." Ryan was a rookie taking over a pedestrian offense whereas Cassel was a 4th year player taking over the greatest offense in NFL history.

 

But the greatest offense in history last year was the greatest offense in history because it was lead by perhaps the greatest QB in history. Inject Cassel in place of Brady and you have exactly two stud players - Moss and Welker - on that Patriots offense. Heck, Sammie Morris laid claim to being their top RB for crying out loud!

 

Cassel becomes untradeable once he signs the franchise tender, because I'm betting (despite the stupidity of some GM's) that no team will want to pay $14M a year for him, plus the huge signing bonus, PLUS surrender draft picks, given he's only shown he can beat average to bad defenses.

 

Isn't showing you can "beat average to bad defenses" better than not showing you can beat any NFL defense? I mean Cassel put up very good numbers and showed continued improvement throughout the year in doing so. He has at least as much skill, talent and upside as any QB in this years draft does but he comes already experienced and proven to be a high quality NFL starter. If placed back in this years draft Cassel would surely be rated as the top QB available.

 

Now teams draft such QB's very early in round 1 each year in the NFL draft. And they do knowing full well that it will cost them franchise type $ to sign the guy. And they do so knowing full well that said QB is totally unproven and probably will require multiple years to pay dividends. Yet, teams froth at the mouth for a chance to sign a young, franchise caliber QB.

 

Well, teams have a chance to perhaps acquire a young, franchise caliber QB by the name Matt Cassel. Only thing is this young, franchise QB comes with a ready resume of proven ability to perform at the NFL level on Sunday's.

 

As I said, the NFLPA will demand that Cassel's agent look for deals that average over the franchise tender, because taking a deal below it decreases the franchise tag's value (and no franchise player has ever signed a contract that averages less than his franchise tender). They'll tell him "if you can't get a contract for at least the average of the franchise tender, you will have to take the 1-year tender."

 

Now if he were a RFA or still under contract for his 7th round salary, I'd say he'd be a shoo-in for a trade because teams would seriously consider giving him $6-7M a year and a commensurate signing bonus, plus surrender a draft pick. But $14M a year, plus a huge signing bonus, plus a draft pick or picks, given his struggles against good defenses (and the fact that he didn't play well against the Steelers, which was later in the season, means that "he'll only improve" is far from guaranteed)?

 

Some desperate and QB needy team will have no problems shelling out franchise $ for a young, proven capable QB who is just hitting his prime so I don't see why the NFLPA is going to be upset.

[VOR]

But the greatest offense in history last year was the greatest offense in history because it was lead by perhaps the greatest QB in history. Inject Cassel in place of Brady and you have exactly two stud players - Moss and Welker - on that Patriots offense. Heck, Sammie Morris laid claim to being their top RB for crying out loud!

LOL! Cassel is so far from a "stud" player, it's actually funny. "Stud" players don't fail to show-up against the better NFL defenses, especially after over half a season of starting. And who cares if Morris was their top RB? The fact remains that the Patriots were 6th in rushing in the NFL this past season. It's not like their running game was an albatross, and in fact, was one of the best in the league.

Isn't showing you can "beat average to bad defenses" better than not showing you can beat any NFL defense? I mean Cassel put up very good numbers and showed continued improvement throughout the year in doing so. He has at least as much skill, talent and upside as any QB in this years draft does but he comes already experienced and proven to be a high quality NFL starter. If placed back in this years draft Cassel would surely be rated as the top QB available.

 

Now teams draft such QB's very early in round 1 each year in the NFL draft. And they do knowing full well that it will cost them franchise type $ to sign the guy. And they do so knowing full well that said QB is totally unproven and probably will require multiple years to pay dividends. Yet, teams froth at the mouth for a chance to sign a young, franchise caliber QB.

No, showing you can only beat bad defenses isn't better than not having proved you can't beat bad ones (i.e. a rookie who is unproven). Again, the issue is paying him $14M a year, or even anything over $10M a year. Once you get outside of the top 5 rookies, the pay scale is so far below that number.

Well, teams have a chance to perhaps acquire a young, franchise caliber QB by the name Matt Cassel. Only thing is this young, franchise QB comes with a ready resume of proven ability to perform at the NFL level on Sunday's.

Yeah...given 4 years in a system, a great supporting cast, and against a weak schedule and defenses. Cassel is the ultimate caveat emptor.

Some desperate and QB needy team will have no problems shelling out franchise $ for a young, proven capable QB who is just hitting his prime so I don't see why the NFLPA is going to be upset.

The NFLPA doesn't care about how desperate teams are for a QB/player; they're only interested in pushing-up the franchise tender. Any contract averaging below the franchise tender pulls the franchise tender down or at least doesn't change it. The NFLPA doesn't want that. Hence the reason NO franchise player has EVER signed a contract averaging less than his franchise tender. You think that's a coincidence? You think that the NFLPA would make an exception for Cassel?

[Pneumonic]

LOL! Cassel is so far from a "stud" player, it's actually funny. "Stud" players don't fail to show-up against the better NFL defenses, especially after over half a season of starting. And who cares if Morris was their top RB? The fact remains that the Patriots were 6th in rushing in the NFL this past season. It's not like their running game was an albatross, and in fact, was one of the best in the league.

 

I'm simply contesting your opinion that the Patriots offense is chalk full of stars such that they are so much better than Atlanta's. Outside of Moss and Welker .........

 

No, showing you can only beat bad defenses isn't better than not having proved you can't beat bad ones (i.e. a rookie who is unproven). Again, the issue is paying him $14M a year, or even anything over $10M a year. Once you get outside of the top 5 rookies, the pay scale is so far below that number.

 

Yeah...given 4 years in a system, a great supporting cast, and against a weak schedule and defenses. Cassel is the ultimate caveat emptor.

 

Regardless of how you wish to analyze things, no rookie QB available in this years draft is as sure a thing as Cassel is. Not sure why you can't see this as so.

 

The NFLPA doesn't care about how desperate teams are for a QB/player; they're only interested in pushing-up the franchise tender. Any contract averaging below the franchise tender pulls the franchise tender down or at least doesn't change it. The NFLPA doesn't want that. Hence the reason NO franchise player has EVER signed a contract averaging less than his franchise tender. You think that's a coincidence? You think that the NFLPA would make an exception for Cassel?

 

Not sure why you are bringing up the NFLPA and underpaying Cassel. I believe the team that acquires Cassel will pay him very handsomely. Certainly enough that the NFLPA won't be concerned. Not that they could do anything about it anyhow.

[Ramius]

I'm simply contesting your opinion that the Patriots offense is chalk full of stars such that they are so much better than Atlanta's. Outside of Moss and Welker .........

 

 

 

Regardless of how you wish to analyze things, no rookie QB available in this years draft is as sure a thing as Cassel is. Not sure why you can't see this as so.

 

 

 

Not sure why you are bringing up the NFLPA and underpaying Cassel. I believe the team that acquires Cassel will pay him very handsomely. Certainly enough that the NFLPA won't be concerned. Not that they could do anything about it anyhow.

 

Sure, theres barely any difference between the pats* and the falcons. Cassel carries basically the same risk as a 1st round QB because he's proven nothing other than he can win a couple of games against bad defenses on a team where Ryan Leaf could do the same.

 

The NFLPA will certainly be concerned is said team is going to pay cassel less than the franchise tender. Theres no way the NFLPA allows Cassel to sign for less than the franchise tender. They'll pressure the agent prior to any negotiations. And no one is paying Cassel 14 million per season.

[VOR]

I'm simply contesting your opinion that the Patriots offense is chalk full of stars such that they are so much better than Atlanta's. Outside of Moss and Welker .........

This is so ridiculous, there's no point in even continuing to argue anymore.

Regardless of how you wish to analyze things, no rookie QB available in this years draft is as sure a thing as Cassel is. Not sure why you can't see this as so.

Why do you keep saying Cassel is a "sure thing?" If you mean "able to beat bad defenses," then yes, he's a "sure thing" in that respect. But outside of that, he's far from a sure thing, and on the contrary, his performance against Pittsburgh after 10 full starts and almost 11 full games is troublesome. That is, for a "stud" QB who is allegedly worth $14M a year.

Not sure why you are bringing up the NFLPA and underpaying Cassel. I believe the team that acquires Cassel will pay him very handsomely. Certainly enough that the NFLPA won't be concerned. Not that they could do anything about it anyhow.

The NFLPA can't do anything about it? LOL! You're either naive or a homer.

[Willis990]

This is so ridiculous, there's no point in even continuing to argue anymore.

 

Why do you keep saying Cassel is a "sure thing?" If you mean "able to beat bad defenses," then yes, he's a "sure thing" in that respect. But outside of that, he's far from a sure thing, and on the contrary, his performance against Pittsburgh after 10 full starts and almost 11 full games is troublesome. That is, for a "stud" QB who is allegedly worth $14M a year.

 

The NFLPA can't do anything about it? LOL! You're either naive or a homer.

 

 

One cautionary note is the NFLPA is not the MLBPA. They do not hold nearly as much power. As long as the deal is reasonable they will be ok with it. The deal does not have to average 14.5 million a year.

[VOR]

One cautionary note is the NFLPA is not the MLBPA. They do not hold nearly as much power. As long as the deal is reasonable they will be ok with it. The deal does not have to average 14.5 million a year.

Again, considering the fact that no player has ever signed a deal averaging less than his franchise number, I'd say that the NFLPA does have a lot of power over this. Not to mention that agents don't want prospective clients to hear that they've negotiated below-tag contracts. It's career suicide either way.

 

But okay, what would be reasonable? $12M a year? Would you still pay Cassel that amount based on his pedestrian numbers last year? Would you pay even $10M a year?

[Willis990]

Again, considering the fact that no player has ever signed a deal averaging less than his franchise number, I'd say that the NFLPA does have a lot of power over this. Not to mention that agents don't want prospective clients to hear that they've negotiated below-tag contracts. It's career suicide either way.

 

But okay, what would be reasonable? $12M a year? Would you still pay Cassel that amount based on his pedestrian numbers last year? Would you pay even $10M a year?

 

 

I say it will 10-11 Million AAV

[VOR]

I say it will 10-11 Million AAV

Still too much and no way the NFLPA allows that. That's a $4M discount from his franchise tag.

[MattM]

I'm simply contesting your opinion that the Patriots offense is chalk full of stars such that they are so much better than Atlanta's. Outside of Moss and Welker .........

 

 

 

Regardless of how you wish to analyze things, no rookie QB available in this years draft is as sure a thing as Cassel is. Not sure why you can't see this as so.

 

 

 

Not sure why you are bringing up the NFLPA and underpaying Cassel. I believe the team that acquires Cassel will pay him very handsomely. Certainly enough that the NFLPA won't be concerned. Not that they could do anything about it anyhow.

 

 

Uhh, conveniently forgetting that under Brady three of their OL went to the Pro Bowl in 2007, yet with that same line it seemed like Matty C. spent half his time running for his life or on his back (especially earlier in the year). The line didn't change, but the QB play did, and hence those gentlemen on the line were at home this offseason and ain't making a return trip to Honolulu. Did you watch any of Cassel's games this year? When I did (which was a good bit thanks to the NFL Sunday Ticket) it seemed to me that he dinked and dunked his way down the field and much of his yardage was YAC gained by his receivers. When he threw more than 15 yards downfield he seemed to not be able to hit the broad side of a barn. This guy's got Scott Mitchell written all over him, IMHO.

 

As for why Reese was talking up his value, anyone consider that the Reese hire didn't completely come out of nowhere perhaps and Floyd was simply talking up his own future book, as traders say?