ajzepp Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 takeo -- we gave him an outstanding offer a week into free agency....very good movebig sam -- we jerked him around for 2 weeks......2 days after he rejected our "final offer", we upped it and he finally signed.....the lowball strategy worked in this case, but i think this was due to only one other team showing interest in him.....very good move because we got him posey -- we made him a quick offer and he took it......he hasn't played as well as expected, but the deal was small so it hasn't hurt us villarial -- another quick strike......this has worked out better then posey, but we did have to pay market rate to get him schobel -- excellent move which i have commended TD for many times.....he put up the cash and the young player took it now, i've talked about your guys, hear me out on PW........ we made him an offer in the summer......he rejected it.......from that point on, according to the buffalo news, not one more conversation happened........do you think that is the best strategy for retaining a player? if you don't want big pat back, it's a very simple answer.......but if you do want him to return, i think it's very fair to say there are other ways to go about it that may have a more positive effect.......no? 254930[/snapback] So in essence you DO think those players were stupid? As for PW, it doesn't really matter that much whether you or I want him back. What matters is whether TD, MM, TM, and the director of Pro Player Personnel (forget his name.....John Guy?) want PW back. That is their job to decide not only his market value, but his value to the Buffalo Bills. That, to me, is the main difference between you and me.......I feel pretty confident that TD will take good care of the team and make good decisions (good......not perfect), and apparently you feel differently. That's completely fine.........I just simply felt like you were being kind of a hypocrite in this thread since you had just spent yesterday telling us how you felt he missess the boat by not offering players contracts before their current deal is up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 So in essence you DO think those players were stupid? As for PW, it doesn't really matter that much whether you or I want him back. What matters is whether TD, MM, TM, and the director of Pro Player Personnel (forget his name.....John Guy?) want PW back. That is their job to decide not only his market value, but his value to the Buffalo Bills. That, to me, is the main difference between you and me.......I feel pretty confident that TD will take good care of the team and make good decisions (good......not perfect), and apparently you feel differently. That's completely fine.........I just simply felt like you were being kind of a hypocrite in this thread since you had just spent yesterday telling us how you felt he missess the boat by not offering players contracts before their current deal is up. 254932[/snapback] i guess we have a simple miscommunication here...... my problem is not that TD "misses the boat by not offering players contracts before their current deal is up"........my problem is I SPECULATE he lowballs them and does not offer them fair market value.......why? because he wants to get them at below market value while he has leverage.......not every team handles it this way, and i generally like their way of doing business better........ free agents, on the other hand, he has no problem spending on.......he just doesn't seem apt to take care of his own....... the guys you mentioned were all free agents but one........in those cases, he offered them fair market value.........they were not stupid for taking fair market value contracts........just like big pat was not stupid for declining what was undoubtably a below market deal (i'm speculating -- but given his desire to remain in buffalo i don't see why he'd decline a fair market value deal).......... you can discount it if you want to and applaud his strategy........that's fine, other teams in the NFL apply the same strategy.......personally, i just don't like it, and i think it would be far more effective to retain our own players by offering them fair market value deals well in advance of free agency........ there, end of discussion, i know where you stand, and you know where i stand........let's see how it all plays out........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 i guess we have a simple miscommunication here...... my problem is not that TD "misses the boat by not offering players contracts before their current deal is up"........my problem is I SPECULATE he lowballs them and does not offer them fair market value.......why? because he wants to get them at below market value while he has leverage.......not every team handles it this way, and i generally like their way of doing business better........ free agents, on the other hand, he has no problem spending on.......he just doesn't seem apt to take care of his own....... the guys you mentioned were all free agents but one........in those cases, he offered them fair market value.........they were not stupid for taking fair market value contracts........just like big pat was not stupid for declining what was undoubtably a below market deal (i'm speculating -- but given his desire to remain in buffalo i don't see why he'd decline a fair market value deal).......... you can discount it if you want to and applaud his strategy........that's fine, other teams in the NFL apply the same strategy.......personally, i just don't like it, and i think it would be far more effective to retain our own players by offering them fair market value deals well in advance of free agency........ there, end of discussion, i know where you stand, and you know where i stand........let's see how it all plays out........ 254940[/snapback] Fair enough.......the problem I see is that i honestly don't see where you get off saying that 'lowballing' is TD's strategy. Do you think he should have offered Peerless what ATL paid him? Should he have paid AW what Minny paid him? Exactly what player has he lowballed who subsequently got a reasonable deal elsewhere that you can point to and say, 'see! If we'd have just given that guy fair market value we could have kept him!" I just don't see that with TD. Do you have any idea how screwed we would be if we were paying players like PP and AW what they ended up signing for? We'd be CUTTING players, not trying to sign them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 Fair enough.......the problem I see is that i honestly don't see where you get off saying that 'lowballing' is TD's strategy. Do you think he should have offered Peerless what ATL paid him? Should he have paid AW what Minny paid him? Exactly what player has he lowballed who subsequently got a reasonable deal elsewhere that you can point to and say, 'see! If we'd have just given that guy fair market value we could have kept him!" I just don't see that with TD. Do you have any idea how screwed we would be if we were paying players like PP and AW what they ended up signing for? We'd be CUTTING players, not trying to sign them. 254943[/snapback] the point is if you offer a guy like peerless or winfield a contract a year BEFORE they hit the market you don't have to pay them the type of contracts they end up getting........ should he have signed peerless at the type of money he got? of course not, but he should have paid him a deal 25% smaller the summer before his breakout year.......same goes for winfield....... of course, once a guy has a breakout season and hits the market his price goes up.....that is why you nip it in the bud with a fat signing bonus before the lure of free agency gets to strong...... he did it with schobel.......i just wish he'd do it more often...... can you tell me why big pat would have turned down a fair market value contract last summer? i can't see any reason why he would have.....hence, i speculate the contract was lowball........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 the point is if you offer a guy like peerless or winfield a contract a year BEFORE they hit the market you don't have to pay them the type of contracts they end up getting........ should he have signed peerless at the type of money he got? of course not, but he should have paid him a deal 25% smaller the summer before his breakout year.......same goes for winfield....... of course, once a guy has a breakout season and hits the market his price goes up.....that is why you nip it in the bud with a fat signing bonus before the lure of free agency gets to strong...... he did it with schobel.......i just wish he'd do it more often...... can you tell me why big pat would have turned down a fair market value contract last summer? i can't see any reason why he would have.....hence, i speculate the contract was lowball........ 254952[/snapback] See, that's kind of my point. How do you KNOW that TD doesn't approach these players ahead of time? As I pointed out yesterday, we know for a fact that he at LEAST approached T.McGee this past season, just like he approached AW in 2002 before the final year of his contract. In this conversation we've pointed out that he's done it with Schobel. I'm just trying to figure out how you know what TD is and isn't doing with these players. As for Big Pat, I can only speculate why he didn't sign last offseason. Maybe it was him, maybe it was his agent, maybe he didn't like TD's assessment of his worth or the duration of the contract being offered. I don't know. I don't know that there are a lot of good FA tackles out there this offseason, especially given the fact that a couple of them have been tagged. So Pat has some pretty good bargaining power and chances are his agent knows that. But then again, that is just speculation on my part. I don't know what has transpired between TD and his agent, and I propose that not many others do either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 See, that's kind of my point. How do you KNOW that TD doesn't approach these players ahead of time? As I pointed out yesterday, we know for a fact that he at LEAST approached T.McGee this past season, just like he approached AW in 2002 before the final year of his contract. In this conversation we've pointed out that he's done it with Schobel. I'm just trying to figure out how you know what TD is and isn't doing with these players. i base my assessment on the fact that most young players want contract extensions well in advance of their free agency because they get their big pay day (signing bonus) immediately and it secures their long-term future.......this opinion is furthered by the multitude of good young players who forgo free agency and instead opt to stick with their current club.....hence the reason good young players don't usually hit UFA unless their club is in cap problems.....even then, teams do what they can to work around the cap and retain their best young players on extensions (ex. keith bulluck)........the key is the offer has to be fair market value......... As for Big Pat, I can only speculate why he didn't sign last offseason. Maybe it was him, maybe it was his agent, maybe he didn't like TD's assessment of his worth or the duration of the contract being offered. I don't know. I don't know that there are a lot of good FA tackles out there this offseason, especially given the fact that a couple of them have been tagged. So Pat has some pretty good bargaining power and chances are his agent knows that. But then again, that is just speculation on my part. I don't know what has transpired between TD and his agent, and I propose that not many others do either. and i will speculate he was lowballed.........if the offer was fair, i think he would have jumped at the chance to retire in buffalo, based on everything he's said in the past and his presence in the community...... instead, TD hasn't even made an effort since then to keep him......i'm sure he feels slighted at the lack of communication.......it's one thing for a player to walk because we can't pay him what he wants, but i think it's another to not even try to work out the differences......and that is the way it happened, according to the buffalo news, who are a trusted source........they offered, he declined, and they never tried again.......i don't like that lack of effort........but i do think it's all part of TD's "games"........purely speculation on my part, but the fact remains he hasn't tried, for whatever reason......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 i base my assessment on the fact that most young players want contract extensions well in advance of their free agency because they get their big pay day (signing bonus) immediately and it secures their long-term future.......this opinion is furthered by the multitude of good young players who forgo free agency and instead opt to stick with their current club.....hence the reason good young players don't usually hit UFA unless their club is in cap problems.....even then, teams do what they can to work around the cap and retain their best young players on extensions (ex. keith bulluck)........the key is the offer has to be fair market value.........and i will speculate he was lowballed.........if the offer was fair, i think he would have jumped at the chance to retire in buffalo, based on everything he's said in the past and his presence in the community...... instead, TD hasn't even made an effort since then to keep him......i'm sure he feels slighted at the lack of communication.......it's one thing for a player to walk because we can't pay him what he wants, but i think it's another to not even try to work out the differences......and that is the way it happened, according to the buffalo news, who are a trusted source........they offered, he declined, and they never tried again.......i don't like that lack of effort........but i do think it's all part of TD's "games"........purely speculation on my part, but the fact remains he hasn't tried, for whatever reason......... 254963[/snapback] Well, I guess we'll just agree to disagree, bro.......but chances are if the contract expectations of Pat Williams and/or his agent were the $5mil/year being reported, I would have broken off negotiations at that point, too. No way is PW worth that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Hey clumpy... What about 3 yrs and 12 mil, 6 mil SB... Year 1 1.5 BASE, 2 prorated SB Year 2 1.5 BASE, 2 prorated SB Year 3 3 BASE, 2 prorated SB Now, by Year 3, we'll have a good idea of how PW is performing. We can cut him and take the 2 mil in dead money (not too bad), or toss him another mil to restructure for a Year 4. Years 3- 4 would then look like this... Year 3 1.5 BASE, 2.5 prorated SB Year 4 1.5 base, 2.5 prorated SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I'm not saying he's had a bad season, but it wasn't that great either. Basically, he's done better. IMO, the line actually looked fine when they rotated Ron Edwards in. They did lose a bit of the run blocking, but Edwards had a pretty good season. I don't want to get rid of Big Pat, but I also think that he is getting up there in age. Also, if you are a fan of stats...his tackles were down and his pass defensed. I also think that due to his shape, he's not the kind of guy that plays more than 2 downs. It seems like he was only out on the field for half of the snaps last season. Someone like that is not worthy of $4 or even $5 million per season. Look at how he matched up with Sam Adams, who only got 4 yrs for $10.248M and a $1.5 M signing bonus. Adams was also 30 years old then. Pat Williams will be 33 this year. Pat Williams - 53 total tackles, 37 solo tackles, 16 assists, 2.5 sacks, 1 interception, 1 TD, 0 pass defensed (12 of the total tackles, 8 solo, 4 assists, and 1 sack were in the last game) Sam Adams - 41 total tackles, 26 solo tackles, 15 assists, 5 sacks, 1 INT, 2 pass defensed, 1 fumble forced 254816[/snapback] Well, I see there is a difference in their stats. However, a lot of stats in sports are not really indicative of what is actually going on. Stats for DT's don't really mean a lot to me...players at that position really don't collect a lot of tackles, or sacks for that matter. What they do is create pressure on the offense. Adams may be a better athlete, and a better DT, but just suppose his partner in the middle was someone other than Williams, say Edwards for argument sake. Adams stats would likely tale off. All that would mean, is that Adams is not as effective with Edwards, as he is with Williams. My point is, it is very rare in the NFL to have two dominating players in the middle of your line. We had it years ago with Williams and Ted Washington. When those two played together, I don't know that their was a much tougher defense to run on. When Washington left, our defense sank down to the bottom of the leauge, from being one of the very best. A dominating defensive line makes the entire defense much better. The Bills had an outstanding defense this past season (a major notch better than the "very good" defenese of 2003), I would just hate to see the team lose anything in this area. The offense will have plenty of question marks going into next season, another year of dominating Defense, and special teams, would really help Losman out a lot...if JP plays decently, and the defense plays to its' 2004 level, IMO, a playoff appearence is a very real possibility! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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