Sisyphean Bills Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 (edited) You totally misconstrued my post and I put zero words in your mouth. Argue the case; don't build strawmen. In counterpoint to you saying: "The truth is that there are good QBs coming out of college that have thrown thousands of reps and studied nuances of the passing game before they get to the NFL. They can be and are successful immediately." I replied that "Those players you mention in abstract are the exception, not the rule". It's as simple as that your comment needed context. And, I think you are wrong or misunderstanding or trying hard deliberately misconstrue what I wrote and meant. Fine. Let's make a list: Ryan, Flacco, Newton, Dalton, Stafford, Luck, Tannehill, Smith, Wilson, Glennon, Griffin, and other first round picks in recent years have all come into the NFL and played immediately. Just like Manuel. The results vary. Some have failed, but many have been effective. This isn't the NFL of 10 or 20 years ago. Owners/presidents are pulling the trigger faster than ever, and coaches have to be capable of doing the same. That is the gist of this thread, btw. On a separate point it goes without saying that Whaley and Marrone have hitched their wagon to Manuel. Bully for them. If they are wrong, I, for one, will not be surprised to see a new regime soon. While Chudzinski gets fired in one year while Jim Schwartz gets 5 years most people with historical perspective understand that most GM/Coach/QBs get 3 years. Perhaps the current crew will only get 2 years. Whatever. As far as your last point about "being fools to cavalierly pass up better options," I again cite my advocacy of possibly drafting another quarterback in the first round: http://forums.twobil...80#entry2988868 So, basically all the bases are covered here. There is a possibility the Bills need to go in another direction and draft a QB high. But, disagree with posts suggesting the same thing with banalities like "only Andrew Luck and Cam Newton look like true franchise quarterbacks." Happy New Year. Edited January 2, 2014 by Sisyphean Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 .....Brees was named starter at the beginning of his 2nd season. He was a Pro Bowler in his 3rd season (Rivers's rookie year) and his 4th season. .... Just fact clarifying here.... Brees made a Pro Bowl in his 4th season(Rivers' rookie year). His 3rd season was similar to his 2nd.....not very good. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Just fact clarifying here.... Brees made a Pro Bowl in his 4th season(Rivers' rookie year). His 3rd season was similar to his 2nd.....not very good. http://www.pro-footb.../B/BreeDr00.htm Thought his 2nd season was OK, from a QB play perspective. 3rd season, looked like he regressed which is why the Chargers pulled the trigger on Rivers, only to have Brees play so well in his 4th season that they franchised him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Thought his 2nd season was OK, from a QB play perspective. 3rd season, looked like he regressed which is why the Chargers pulled the trigger on Rivers, only to have Brees play so well in his 4th season that they franchised him. I thought that there was a shoulder injury that contributed to his regression? Just a faint memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) I added the opposing QB and my assessment of them: I am not seeing the trend for these new great QBs winning SBs, the last 10 SB winning QBs were: Joe Flacco - good vs. Colin Kaepernick - jury still out on him, probably better QB than Flacco Eli Manning - good vs. Tom Brady - great Aaron Rodgers - great vs. Ben Roethlisberger - good Drew Brees - great vs. Peyton Manning - great Ben Roethlisberger - good vs. Kurt Warner - arguably great, I would call him good with great years Peyton Manning - "great" vs. Rex Grossman - journeyman Roethlisberger - good vs. Matt Hasselbeck - good IMHO. Tom Brady - great vs. Donovan McNabb - good at best, some might say journeyma Tom Brady - great vs. Jake Delhomme - I would say journeyman Brad Johnson - journeyman vs. Rich Gannon - journeyman with good years If you agree with my classifications, then 5 of the last 10 SBs were won by "great" QBs. The remainder were no doubt good, but not great in my opinion (except for Brad Johnson). I agree with your classifications. Further, if one broadens the scope to include the superbowl opponents (added by me in bold above, along with my opinion of the QB) it can be seen that 3 out of 5 SB not won by "great" QB (per your classification), the winning QB was arguably lesser quality than the losing QB. I think the point can be made that a good, but not "great", or even "serviceable" "journeyman" QB can still take an overall strong team deep into the playoffs, which is why I personally expect to see Andy Dalton playing in a superbowl soon provided the rest of the team stays on the same course. That's not to excuse the Bills who clearly should have invested higher draft picks and better quality FA acquisitions on QB over the years. Still, the general belief on TBD remains that one must have Brady, Brees, or Peyton Manning on the roster, or go home in January. BTW, I appreciate your well-written, well-thought out posts. I very much appreciate that the general tone of your posts is polite also. Thanks Edited January 2, 2014 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes, there is such a thing. It's unclear that even Pittsburgh, which is one of the few islands of stability in a sea frothy from churn, would give a QB 6 years these days to show he could play the position. The truth is that there are good QBs coming out of college that have thrown thousands of reps and studied nuances of the passing game before they get to the NFL. They can be and are successful immediately. On the other hand, a coach has to keep his eye on the ball -- it's all about winning. How many really care these days if you could maybe have molded a lump of clay into a serviceable QB with huge amounts of pain and patience? How many people would've been on board with Gailey tinkering with Fitzpatrick this past season and maybe a couple more as well? Even Buddy Nix saw that wasn't going to be the path. Those players you mention in abstract are the exception, not the rule. Since 2009, 13 quarterbacks have been drafted in the first round. Of those 13 only Andrew Luck and Cam Newton look like true franchise quarterbacks. You can include RG3 and Matthew Stafford if you'd like. One can increase the scope to include QBs taken in the first 3 rounds like Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, Andy Dalton, and Nick Foles but then you'd also have to add guys like Brock Osweiler, Ryan Mallett, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, and Pat White. The inarguable fact is that the bust rate for highly-drafted QBs remains as it has always been: very high, a fact people around here don't acknowledge. I think you're shoving words in my mouth too fast here. I never said anything about "franchise QBs". I never made lists nor did I create artificial levels and cherry pick. I never said anything about it being a perfect science. Nor did I imply that there is 100% success rate. What I said was exactly the opposite, in fact. Thanks for backing me up that it is far from 100% certain that EJ Manuel is going to be a franchise QB. Yes, it is NOT an exact science and there is no reason to assume that the Bills (or you) got it right with Manuel at this point. He looked stinky bad at times this season and has a very long way to go. Let's be clear: Manuel is not a given. (I know you personally liked him and are invested in that sense.) I fully expect that the Bills coaches will be working with him to make him a better player this off-season. It's obvious that he needs the work. It's a no-brainer to say this is going to occur. Still, Marrone's regime's fate rests entirely on results. He knows this, as he said it crystal clear in the year-end PC. Brandon even rammed it home multiple times in multiple ways that there is an urgency for improvement on the field and Doug and Doug were responsible to deliver that result. It's not that big of a stretch to connect the dots that Marrone's survival rests largely on how the QB situation for the team is addressed. The tone of that press conference was not one of the brain trust triplets taking a long view of hoping a project will pan out in 5 or 6 seasons. It was not another Buddy or Marv PC where the message was patience and pain. I don't take them for idiots; they surely know that the chances the team undergoes a change in ownership in the next 5 or 6 years are very high. At the present moment, Manuel may be their best option at the position, but they'd be fools to cavalierly pass up better options. You totally misconstrued my post and I put zero words in your mouth. In counterpoint to you saying: "The truth is that there are good QBs coming out of college that have thrown thousands of reps and studied nuances of the passing game before they get to the NFL. They can be and are successful immediately." I replied that "Those players you mention in abstract are the exception, not the rule". It's as simple as that your comment needed context. On a separate point it goes without saying that Whaley and Marrone have hitched their wagon to Manuel. While Chudzinski gets fired in one year while Jim Schwartz gets 5 years most people with historical perspective understand that most GM/Coach/QBs get 3 years. Perhaps the current crew will only get 2 years. Whatever. As far as your last point about "being fools to cavalierly pass up better options," I again cite my advocacy of possibly drafting another quarterback in the first round: http://forums.twobil...80#entry2988868 Argue the case; don't build strawmen. And, I think you are wrong or misunderstanding or trying hard deliberately misconstrue what I wrote and meant. Fine. Let's make a list: Ryan, Flacco, Newton, Dalton, Stafford, Luck, Tannehill, Smith, Wilson, Glennon, Griffin, and other first round picks in recent years have all come into the NFL and played immediately. Just like Manuel. The results vary. Some have failed, but many have been effective. This isn't the NFL of 10 or 20 years ago. Owners/presidents are pulling the trigger faster than ever, and coaches have to be capable of doing the same. That is the gist of this thread, btw. Bully for them. If they are wrong, I, for one, will not be surprised to see a new regime soon. So, basically all the bases are covered here. There is a possibility the Bills need to go in another direction and draft a QB high. But, disagree with posts suggesting the same thing with banalities like "only Andrew Luck and Cam Newton look like true franchise quarterbacks." Happy New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Happy New Year? Dude, you're sniping at me. :lol: I disagreed with one point you made and suddenly I'm "deliberately misconstruing you," "building strawmen," and "shoving words in your mouth?" Take it easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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