The Big Cat Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Glad I didn't enter this nonsense at the ground floor. I think the OP's premise has been sufficiently flamed. Carry on, TSW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Duck Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Except that you're not really debating. There have been like 5 or 6 very good counter-arguments and explanations in response to your point, and instead of dealing with them, you just keep repeating yourself. If you refuse to allow yourself to become convinced by someone else's argument, than you're wasting everyone's time (esp. your own) trying to stir up a "debate." Honestly Coach, I've had one good response in defense of Ryan Fitzpatrick in my opinion, and it was your post. I've never said this was all Fitz's fault, and acknowledged the rest of the teams participation in the Net -17 a long time ago. This was a thread meant for debate on a topic I thought stuck out for the Buffalo Bills/fans, as we are ranked dead last in the give away/take away department. Edited August 31, 2011 by Fig Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 biggest part of the equation, and I'm here to debate, how about you? If you were here to debate, you would provide counter-arguments to the various rebuttals to your original post. You posted minimal evidence to support your contention which you were called out for. You were offered plenty of points that presented a differing point of view to which you have no solid response. And yet, instead of accepting other people's contentions and the vacuity of your own argument, you stubbornly seek to stick to your point of view. That is no debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 TD to INT ratio are two of the most important aspects of a signal caller in the NFL. Score points and don't turn the ball over, keep your job. Don't score points and turn the ball over, lose your job Just curious, how high does a QB's TD/INT ratio have to be for you to consider them a decent NFL quarterback. How high for a good NFL quarterback? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoveldog Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 In 138 Game starts Drew Brees scored 235 TD's In 160 Game starts jim Kelly scored 237 TD's WORD! You spin the stats to make your argument. Try this on for size... most QB's take time to develop. QB's rarely have a profound impact in their first few years. Year TD INT Ryan Fitzpatrick 2008 8 9 2009 9 10 2010 23 15 Drew Brees 2002 17 16 2003 11 15 2004 27 7 Troy Aikman 1989 9 18 1990 11 18 1991 11 10 1992 23 14 Terry Brandshaw 1970 6 24 1971 13 22 1972 12 12 1973 10 15 Joe Namath 1965 18 15 1966 19 27 1967 26 28 1968 15 17 Steve Young 1985 3 8 1986 8 13 1987 10 0 1989 8 3 1990 2 0 1991 17 8 1992 25 7 1993 29 16 1994 35 10 Look how long it took Steve Young to develop. Yeah, he sucked! You can spin stats to suit just about any argument, get off your bashing bandwagon and enjoy our Buffalo Bills! Shovel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Duck Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Just curious, how high does a QB's TD/INT ratio have to be for you to consider them a decent NFL quarterback. How high for a good NFL quarterback? I think its partly the QB's role as a leader, to try to set a good example, especially when it comes to some of the more important aspects of football like TOP, and not giving your opponent extra chances to score against you. To answer your question Billshody, the INT's become a mute point If the team is winning You spin the stats to make your argument. Try this on for size... most QB's take time to develop. QB's rarely have a profound impact in their first few years. Year TD INT Ryan Fitzpatrick 2008 8 9 2009 9 10 2010 23 15 Drew Brees 2002 17 16 2003 11 15 2004 27 7 Troy Aikman 1989 9 18 1990 11 18 1991 11 10 1992 23 14 Terry Brandshaw 1970 6 24 1971 13 22 1972 12 12 1973 10 15 Joe Namath 1965 18 15 1966 19 27 1967 26 28 1968 15 17 Steve Young 1985 3 8 1986 8 13 1987 10 0 1989 8 3 1990 2 0 1991 17 8 1992 25 7 1993 29 16 1994 35 10 Look how long it took Steve Young to develop. Yeah, he sucked! You can spin stats to suit just about any argument, get off your bashing bandwagon and enjoy our Buffalo Bills! Shovel As I told Coach earlier, of this I have no argument, I'm hoping Fitz will get better and I'm rooting for Fitzpatrick to get better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoveldog Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) As I told Coach earlier, of this I have no argument, I'm hoping Fitz will get better and I'm rooting for Fitzpatrick to get better... Really? All I see is a guy carrying a pitchfork and a flaming torch. You haven't made a single argument here except that Fitz sucks and he turns the ball over too much and as a result the Bills will suck. I think I have just shown you that Fitz had a very respectable td to int ratio last year. As history has shown in the stats I provided, most QB's turn the corner around their 3rd or 4th year as a starter. Some longer, depending on the quality of the team around them. You are using career stats to justify a very weak argument. There is no reason to believe that Fitz won't continue to improve as a QB this year and will do an even better job scoring TD's and limiting INT's. You are not debating as you say, you are trying to drive home your cynical viewpoints... with a sledgehammer. Shovel Edited August 31, 2011 by shoveldog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 INTs become mute when a team is winning.. I dont necessarily agree. Its not Fitzpatricks fault that the team is losing. Its the defense that couldn't stop the run last year or force any turnovers. If you put Fitzpatrick on a team with a defense like the steelers, he would probably be an 11 game winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Duck Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Really? All I see is a guy carrying a pitchfork and a flaming torch. You haven't made a single argument here except that Fitz sucks and he turns the ball over too much and as a result the Bills will suck. I think I have just shown you that Fitz had a very respectable td to int ratio last year. As history has shown in the stats I provided, most QB's turn the corner around their 3rd or 4th year as a starter. Some longer, depending on the quality of the team around them. You are using career stats to justify a very weak argument. There is no reason to believe that Fitz won't continue to improve as a QB this year and will do an even better job scoring TD's and limiting INT's... well, except in your world. Shovel If you expect me to express my beliefs, then back down from them, its not happening. Prove me wrong and I'll be the 1st to admit it. Nobody is going to convince me giving the ball up 20 times in 13 games is a good thing and I'm willing to bet Fitzpatrick and Chan Gailey would tell you the same thing, coaches preach about protecting the football... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Duck Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 INTs become mute when a team is winning.. I dont necessarily agree. Its not Fitzpatricks fault that the team is losing. Its the defense that couldn't stop the run last year or force any turnovers. If you put Fitzpatrick on a team with a defense like the steelers, he would probably be an 11 game winner. Do you care If Fitzpatrick throws an INT If he beats the Pats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) If you expect me to express my beliefs, then back down from them, its not happening. Prove me wrong and I'll be the 1st to admit it. Nobody is going to convince me giving the ball up 20 times in 13 games is a good thing and I'm willing to bet Fitzpatrick and Chan Gailey would tell you the same thing, coaches preach about protecting the football... We expect you to have the common sense to realize that you started an idiotic thread and stop yourself in trying to defend it any longer. Michael Vick turned the ball over 17 times in 11 games. You don't hear Eagle fans harping on this because they know it's a stupid anecdotal stat. Edited August 31, 2011 by 1billsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoveldog Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 If you expect me to express my beliefs, then back down from them, its not happening. Prove me wrong and I'll be the 1st to admit it. Nobody is going to convince me giving the ball up 20 times in 13 games is a good thing and I'm willing to bet Fitzpatrick and Chan Gailey would tell you the same thing, coaches preach about protecting the football... But this was not your argument. You said, "I just showed you a direct correlation between winning football games/Championships and winning the give away take away battle. Fitz gives you the turnovers without the TD's needed to over come them." I just proved you wrong by citing last years stats. Fitz didn't turn the ball over more than he scored TD's in 2010 and from the stats I showed from some of the most prominent QB's in the history of the game, there is no reason to believe that trend will suddenly reverse in 2011/12. As far as I'm concerned, your argument is busted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 How many of the turnovers were a result of tipped passes, dropped passes and bad blocking? If we are going to blame Fitzpatrick we need to make sure we only blame him for specific turnovers to be accurate for accuracy's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Duck Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) How many of the turnovers were a result of tipped passes, dropped passes and bad blocking? If we are going to blame Fitzpatrick we need to make sure we only blame him for specific turnovers to be accurate for accuracy's sake. touche But this was not your argument. You said, "I just showed you a direct correlation between winning football games/Championships and winning the give away take away battle. Fitz gives you the turnovers without the TD's needed to over come them." I just proved you wrong by citing last years stats. Fitz didn't turn the ball over more than he scored TD's in 2010 and from the stats I showed from some of the most prominent QB's in the history of the game, there is no reason to believe that trend will suddenly reverse in 2011/12. As far as I'm concerned, your argument is busted. If it makes you happy Note: anyone that participates much in the shoutbox knows I have had high praise for Ryan Fitzpatrick this preseason. I'm also very optimistic Fitzpatrick is about to have the best season of his pro career. For those of you who tried to convey as much... I hear you...and its nice having fans stand up for our QB... Edited August 31, 2011 by Fig Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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