PIZ Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Should I put the studded tires on just the front or on all 4 tires? Last year I only put them on the front because someone told me that's what they recommend, but when I went around turns it seems to slide in the back. What's the proper way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 I guess all 4 can't hurt. Turn slower next time or put a few fat arses in the back seat... I don't suggest a dead body in the trunk, when the cops stop you (for corning too fast), you end up in deep poo...!! Where do you live? In the Mts? I can't imagine studed on a fwd? I think they are illegal in IL (except if you are passing through). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIZ Posted November 23, 2004 Author Share Posted November 23, 2004 Where do you live? In the Mts? I can't imagine studed on a fwd? I think they are illegal in IL (except if you are passing through). 130288[/snapback] PA. The last time I went without studded tires I slid all the way down a 1 mile hill with my break on and I never came to a complete stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 PA. The last time I went without studded tires I slid all the way down a 1 mile hill with my break on and I never came to a complete stop. 130299[/snapback] Double edge sword there, hill puts you in a trick-bag. When you break, you turn your vehicle into a giant sled... Keep traction by having the wheels turn... Thus the pumping thingy or anti-lock (of course, never pump with anti-locks... it does it for you) brake action. Like skiing on ice... If you feel comfortable, don't sweat it, just turn where there is NO ice... Of course easier said then done when you picked up a head of steam you feel uncomfortable controlling... Then again... What do I know?... I am just a lousy flat-lander... Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 All four tires is the only way to go. An absolute necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Tire width, tread rubber compound, and tread design play roles. The wider the tire, the less psi on the ground, so the more flotation. A tire needs to get to a tractive surface - the pavement - to work best. Many of today's vehicles have overly-wide tires - ok for dry conditions, but not for inclement weather. Many SUV tires have an "aggresive" tread design, useful for many off-road conditions, and usually beneficial for low-speed snow driving, but have some undesireable characteristics at normal and highway speeds, in dry and inclement weather. Snow tires have rubber compounding that allows for better cold weather flexibility and affinity for moisture. The trade-off is increased wear. Not all so-called all-season tires are equal, also. Toyota has a reputation of providing OEM skins on their sedans that have relatively hard compounding and low rolling resistance. Good for fuel economy, but not for rain or especially snow. The Corolla model is notable here. Tires, in design and application, are very sophisticated things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Tire width, tread rubber compound, and tread design play roles. The wider the tire, the less psi on the ground, so the more flotation. A tire needs to get to a tractive surface - the pavement - to work best. Many of today's vehicles have overly-wide tires - ok for dry conditions, but not for inclement weather. Many SUV tires have an "aggresive" tread design, useful for many off-road conditions, and usually beneficial for low-speed snow driving, but have some undesireable characteristics at normal and highway speeds, in dry and inclement weather. Snow tires have rubber compounding that allows for better cold weather flexibility and affinity for moisture. The trade-off is increased wear. Not all so-called all-season tires are equal, also. Toyota has a reputation of providing OEM skins on their sedans that have relatively hard compounding and low rolling rsistance. Good for fuel economy, but not for rain or especially snow. The Corolla model is notable here. Tires, in design and application, are very sophisticated things... 130469[/snapback] Absolutely correct. My winter tires are Nokian Hakkopollitas and there is significantly less surface touching the road than my OEM summer tires. The Nokians remain soft well below zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Absolutely correct. My winter tires are Nokian Hakkopollitas and there is significantly less surface touching the road than my OEM summer tires. The Nokians remain soft well below zero. 130483[/snapback] Many years ago, AC Delco sold a product named "Liquid Tire Chain". Back then, almost all vehicles on the road were RWD, with a few 4WD's and the odd FWD Saab. Installing tire chains was very common. If you wanted to go, that's what you did. The Delco product came in a one-use spray can (actually, more of an extrusion than spray) that dispensed a very hydrophyllic, tarry, oozing substance. You would apply it to your drive wheels in a left-to-right ribbos across the tire tread surface. A spinning tire on ice produces heat, the ice or snow turns to water, and a tire will be happy to spin all day long on a layer of water. The "LTC" attracted water - which has it's own shear properties thanks to hydrogen bonding, van der Waal's forces etc. - and thus raised shear values between the tire and the underlying surface seperated by the water. Result - traction. It really worked. It was messy and pricey, so it wasn't around long. IIRC, it would last for a half our or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bitch slap Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Absolutely correct. My winter tires are Nokian Hakkopollitas and there is significantly less surface touching the road than my OEM summer tires. The Nokians remain soft well below zero. 130483[/snapback] Nokians are great. Best snowtire on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Many years ago, AC Delco sold a product named "Liquid Tire Chain". Back then, almost all vehicles on the road were RWD, with a few 4WD's and the odd FWD Saab. Installing tire chains was very common. If you wanted to go, that's what you did. The Delco product came in a one-use spray can (actually, more of an extrusion than spray) that dispensed a very hydrophyllic, tarry, oozing substance. You would apply it to your drive wheels in a left-to-right ribbos across the tire tread surface. A spinning tire on ice produces heat, the ice or snow turns to water, and a tire will be happy to spin all day long on a layer of water. The "LTC" attracted water - which has it's own shear properties thanks to hydrogen bonding, van der Waal's forces etc. - and thus raised shear values between the tire and the underlying surface seperated by the water. Result - traction. It really worked. It was messy and pricey, so it wasn't around long. IIRC, it would last for a half our or so. 130554[/snapback] That sounds pretty cool. Never heard of it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 That sounds pretty cool. Never heard of it before. 130634[/snapback] It's from the mid 1960's I still carry the so-called "cheater" chains, occasionally referred to as "mud hooks" (in the South). They are the ones that are 2 lengths of tire chains that attach to a spreader plate, with a canvas strap/buckle that you run through the wheel and pull taut: http://www.tirechain.com/fix&go.htm They go "thump-thump-thump", but they get you out of a tough spot - gotta remove them after you are unstuck, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soljc Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Never compromise your snow traction by only putting on 2 snow tires; your back end won't have the same traction and you could end up doing doughnuts in the middle of the road. FWIW, unless you're in extreme snow country, I think 4 dedicated snow tires is a better choice than studded tires. As others have said, check out Nokian tires, the benchmark in snow tires IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIZ Posted November 23, 2004 Author Share Posted November 23, 2004 FWIW, unless you're in extreme snow country, I think 4 dedicated snow tires is a better choice than studded tires. 130685[/snapback] But my problem has always been ICE. Not our ice, but icey roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Never compromise your snow traction by only putting on 2 snow tires; your back end won't have the same traction and you could end up doing doughnuts in the middle of the road. FWIW, unless you're in extreme snow country, I think 4 dedicated snow tires is a better choice than studded tires. As others have said, check out Nokian tires, the benchmark in snow tires IMO. 130685[/snapback] Studs are better on ice than snow tires. By a WIDE margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soljc Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 But my problem has always been ICE. Not our ice, but icey roads. 130703[/snapback] Ah, ice you say. Yeah, he is a jerk...oh wait, you mean frozen water. Yes, if you've got ice concerns, studs are better, but again, I'd spend the extra $$ on 4 tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Studs are better on ice than snow tires. By a WIDE margin. 130712[/snapback] But only when the temperature of the ice is at or near 32 deg F. When the ice temperature is lower, they do not bite, and revisit some of the problems that they present on dry or wet surfaces. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:k9ySk...ure+range&hl=en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIZ Posted November 23, 2004 Author Share Posted November 23, 2004 But only when the temperature of the ice is at or neer 32 deg F. When the ice temperature is lower, they do not bite, and revisit some of the problems that they present on dry or wet surfaces. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:k9ySk...ure+range&hl=en 130751[/snapback] Yeah, that's the problem I have been contemplating. So maybe that's why they say to only have the studs in the front? I could envision driving 65 on a dry road with 4 studded tires and then making a turn. I think I'd end up sliding off the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Yeah, that's the problem I have been contemplating. So maybe that's why they say to only have the studs in the front? I could envision driving 65 on a dry road with 4 studded tires and then making a turn. I think I'd end up sliding off the road. 130756[/snapback] If you use studs, use them at all 4 wheels. But were it me, I wouldn't use studs, instead purchasing a set of 4 of contemporary, quality snows. The tires that accept studs are at the lower area of general tire technology. I lived in Western PA for about 11 years - I share some experience with you. I think you will be better served by the modern snow tires - at all 4 wheels, of course. The company, Tire Rack, has a lot of advise regarding choices. I used to negotiate a lot of downhill stretches in PA's Laurel Mountains in the winter. Gearing down and judicious use of the handbrake is useful. Taking it slow, goes without saying, of course! PM me with your vehicle specifics (model, transmission, factory tire size, anticipated terrain, anti-lock or not,) if you need some humble advice based on experience and technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 But only when the temperature of the ice is at or near 32 deg F. When the ice temperature is lower, they do not bite, and revisit some of the problems that they present on dry or wet surfaces. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:k9ySk...ure+range&hl=en 130751[/snapback] I'm going off my experience, which is pretty much 5.5 months per year of ice covered roads (I can literally skate on the road leading to my house and have been able to for the last week). We have 3 vehicles in our family, two with Nokian studded tires and one with regular (expensive) snow tires. While there are some minor concerns with cornering of studded tires, they are easily compensated for by driving at speeds proper for conditions. That's really the rub of studded tires and 4WD vehicles. They give stupid people the improper belief that they can drive the way they do when conditions are optimal. I'll take my studs anytime, regardless of what some university study says. 10 years of driving on terrible roads that are poorly kept makes that choice VERY easy. My Tires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 I'm going off my experience, which is pretty much 5.5 months per year of ice covered roads (I can literally skate on the road leading to my house and have been able to for the last week). We have 3 vehicles in our family, two with Nokian studded tires and one with regular (expensive) snow tires. While there are some minor concerns with cornering of studded tires, they are easily compensated for by driving at speeds proper for conditions. That's really the rub of studded tires and 4WD vehicles. They give stupid people the improper belief that they can drive the way they do when conditions are optimal. I'll take my studs anytime, regardless of what some university study says. 10 years of driving on terrible roads that are poorly kept makes that choice VERY easy. My Tires 130892[/snapback] Certainly so. All the technology in the world falls by the wayside if a certain level of understanding of basic physics does not reside behind the steering wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Many years ago, AC Delco sold a product named "Liquid Tire Chain". Back then, almost all vehicles on the road were RWD, with a few 4WD's and the odd FWD Saab. Installing tire chains was very common. If you wanted to go, that's what you did. The Delco product came in a one-use spray can (actually, more of an extrusion than spray) that dispensed a very hydrophyllic, tarry, oozing substance. You would apply it to your drive wheels in a left-to-right ribbos across the tire tread surface. A spinning tire on ice produces heat, the ice or snow turns to water, and a tire will be happy to spin all day long on a layer of water. The "LTC" attracted water - which has it's own shear properties thanks to hydrogen bonding, van der Waal's forces etc. - and thus raised shear values between the tire and the underlying surface seperated by the water. Result - traction. It really worked. It was messy and pricey, so it wasn't around long. IIRC, it would last for a half our or so. 130554[/snapback] Pretty rubber tire go round maybe go through snow too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Pretty rubber tire go round maybe go through snow too? 131070[/snapback] Technology aside, 95% of making headway comes down a basic appreciation of inertia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Forget the studs altogether. Studs were needed once when snow tires weren't much better than all season's on ice. However, with the new compounds in snow tires studs are a detriment. You can't put them on until a certain date, you have to have them off on a certain date, they can be slippery on dry pavement, they make a lot of noise and by the third year most of the studs will be gone. If your going to get stuck, studs or not won't make a difference. It has more to do with the driver. Start down an icy hill at to fast a speed and studs won't stop you either. Start up a icy hill with no speed and studs or not you won't make it up the hill. As one poster said it's all about inertia. Go buy a good pair of winter tires and put them on the drive wheels at least, all four if you have money to spare. I've run snow tires only on the drive wheels for years with no problems as I never wanted to spend the extra for the other two wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Thank God this is not a question I have this year!!!! I love Buffalo but finnaly got out and see the light. Spent this last winter BBQ'ing instead of shoveling...GOTTA LOVE IT!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 nokian 4 life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slappy segwes Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Although not living in WNY anymore (couldn't handle the snow anymore), i have a suggestion to keep the backend from fishtailing. Quikrete has a product out there that you can pickup called "Tubesand". All it really is is sand in a weatherproof bag. Toss a couple of those in the trunk or bed of your truck, preferably as close to the wheels as possible, and the weight will significantly reduce the chances of fishtailing. You can get it at probably get it at any home improvement store. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Unstudded B.F. Goodrich Winter Slaloms all around for me. Just switched 'em over last week; the "performance" skins go back on next April. Had pretty good luck with them the last four winters, including more than a few trips up through "ski country" to Buffalo and back.... PIZ, if you're driving a FWD car (like my Grand Prix), you absolutely positively want to put snows on all four wheels. Four Winter Tires, Not TwoOne of the keys to that performance improvement was the fact that those vehicles were equipped with four winter tires, not just two. Because of the significant differences in traction between winter and all-season tires, it is imperative that they be installed on all four wheels. Otherwise, the two ends of your vehicle can experience different traction characteristics, resulting in potentially dangerous instability. That applies whether your vehicle has front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive. We tend to think of traction only as the driving force that gets us moving, but tires develop traction in all directions. It is necessary for cornering and braking as well as driving. Putting winter tires on just two wheels upsets that balance of traction between the two ends of the vehicle and increases the potential for a skid to occur at the end with least traction. http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?c...=4020490&src=NA You're still down around St. Marys, right? Just stay off Boot Jack Hill and all will be well .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIZ Posted November 24, 2004 Author Share Posted November 24, 2004 You're still down around St. Marys, right? Just stay off Boot Jack Hill and all will be well .... 131708[/snapback] Drive down and up it every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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