The O-line isn't always to blame

[PushthePile]

Serious pressure resets those clocks in the heads. I'm sure you remember how pathetic Brady looked in that Super Bowl with the Giants when somebody finally got past their o-line consistently.

 

Even good QBs do badly with bad OLs.

 

Of course it is true that good QBs make offensive lines look better.

 

But basically, our line legitimately sucks, and would negatively affect any QB.

I think Brady has had enough success in this league to think that his body of work speaks louder than one superbowl game. Any QB can be rocked and any o-line can fall apart but the debate isn't based on a game here and there.

 

Rothlisburger has been under intense pressure since day 1 of his career. The guy is incredibly strong and overcomes constant pressure with his intangibles. Tom Brady is not a nimble player but he knows how to help his blockers by reading a blitz and buying time by shuffling only a few feet. Mcnabb is the same way, these guys sidestep danger and set up their blockers like RB would. Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning don't even have to move that much. They have the ability to feel the exact moment when blocking is about to breakdown. The ball is immediately jettison and downfield before a defender can get a fingernail on them. It's not even close most of the time.

 

Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, and Phillip Rivers are making plays because they are able to avoid pressure while looking downfield. Aaron Rodgers despite what some have stated incorrectly is having a fantastic season despite being put behind an ALL-time horrible line. The guy is taking his fair share of sacks but you don't have his stats without always having his sight downfield. The Pack have no defense, no o-line, no run game, no coaching staff, and Rodgers is having a very similar season to Peyton Manning.

 

It's easy to just regurgitate the same old "trenches" argument but when you take the time to really examine the truth it mostly points to the QB. It's no miracle that Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Mcnabb are always playing behind the best o-lines, despite injuries, rookies, and new blocking schemes. Why did our complete bust of a tackle Gandy protect Warner so well last season? The guy was a complete turnstile here, right?

 

The Bills have had a very shaky o-line this season. The unit most certainly needs to be shored up this off season. In the NFL, the defensive pressure is always one step away. I don't care if you have your pick of any o-lineman you want, the defense is going to get through. To be successful a signal caller has to identify WHEN it is breaking down. This team hasn't had a guy who could do that since Kelly. Trent has been like the majority of our QBs. He either can't feel it and gets crushed, or he bails early and kills the play before it starts.

[PushthePile]

Serious pressure resets those clocks in the heads. I'm sure you remember how pathetic Brady looked in that Super Bowl with the Giants when somebody finally got past their o-line consistently.

 

Even good QBs do badly with bad OLs.

 

Of course it is true that good QBs make offensive lines look better.

 

But basically, our line legitimately sucks, and would negatively affect any QB.

Blatantly false. Brett Favre has gone most of his career barely being touched. I guess he has only played behind good lines over the last 18 years. So many other good Qbs though out the years have all had the same solid protection year in and year out, right?

[PushthePile]

Big Ben is about the ONLY QB currently playing in the NFL that can get it done with a less then stellar O line. Just because he gets sacked a bunch doesn't necessarily mean it is because of the O line either, he holds on to the ball to long a ton, but he can get away with it by moving around and avoiding the pass rush. The guy is so big he is very difficult to tackle and sack.

Besides that 08 Steeler line had a hella lot more experience then this years Buffalo Bills. Plus they had the best defense in the NFL last year which helped win a bunch of games.

 

Again your comparing a top QB in the NFL who is indeed very special, to a very average QB. Schonert had Edwards in the shotgun about 70% of the time last season, everyone knew when the Bills were passing. This season he has a rookie play caller who was hired two weeks before the start of the season and everyone expects him to play great despite the crap offensive line and rookie OC.

 

Still, I wonder how well Big Ben would play behind the horrid Bills line game after game. One severe concussion could ruin his whole season, or entire career.

Another completely false statement. Aaron Rodgers is having a season equal too Manning's right now. It's amazing that some posters really believe that Manning, Brady, Brees, Mcnabb, and others all have invincible lines. That perfect wall that has allowed Brady to only be sacked 12 times this season, allowed Cassel to be pancaked 47 times last year. IT'S MAGIC!!!!!!

[thewildrabbit]

The mistakes Jauron made with the current O line and firing Schonert cost him his job. I could see that before the season started the Bills were going to have big problems on the offense. Most everyone else in the country did also because everyone was taking the under in Vegas, which was 7 games.

 

The coaching staff has ruined Trent Edwards much the same way they ruined JP Losman, and they will continue to ruin every young QB they bring in unless they get some decent tackles that can stay healthy and do their Job. I don't foresee Fitz having a ton of success in the current offense if he starts getting hit like Edwards did, particularly if he gets concussed. Those can add up to permanent brain damage and turn a bright young college grad into someone with a lifetime of issues.

 

I hope they don't play Edwards the rest of the season so he gets a chance to recover properly.

[Guest dog14787]

Another completely false statement. Aaron Rodgers is having a season equal too Manning's right now. It's amazing that some posters really believe that Manning, Brady, Brees, Mcnabb, and others all have invincible lines. That perfect wall that has allowed Brady to only be sacked 12 times this season, allowed Cassel to be pancaked 47 times last year. IT'S MAGIC!!!!!!

 

Your logic on this is flawed again as usual, if the packers had a good O-line they would probably be undefeated like the Colts instead of a game above 500 and not even in the playoffs if the season ended now.

 

Better O-line, WOW ITS MAGIC!!!, the packers are a playoff contender.

[thewildrabbit]

Another completely false statement. Aaron Rodgers is having a season equal too Manning's right now. It's amazing that some posters really believe that Manning, Brady, Brees, Mcnabb, and others all have invincible lines. That perfect wall that has allowed Brady to only be sacked 12 times this season, allowed Cassel to be pancaked 47 times last year. IT'S MAGIC!!!!!!

Yea and Cassell didn't even play in college, he was a backup his entire career at USC and yet took his team to a 11-5 record. How is Cassel doing in KC this year 2-7 ? ITS MAGIC!!!!

 

You are the one who brought up Brady (12 sacks) and Manning (8 sacks) they WIN because they are protected and able to throw any pass they want.

 

You are comparing a player in Rodgers who sat behind a legend for 4 years and learned the WEST COAST offense. I hear lots of analysts stating that Rodgers causes all those sacks because he holds on to the ball to long while waiting for his receivers to break open. Besides, he is in a better offensive system with better coaches and better play calling, better receivers and an actual blocking tight end.

[Ray]

Great QB trumps all! Flutie was very good behind the same OL Johnson was terrible behind. Same for Tom Brady behind the same OL that Drew Bledsoe was horrible behind. Having a great QB makes all the difference in the world. It helps to have a very good OL, don't get me wrong. But a great QB makes up for a lot of the deficiencies.

And Dog, you are the one who has it wrong.....even if we had the best OL Trent would still be bad. He had all the time to throw those last three passes that series against the Titans. He had time to throw that pick six against Miami.

Go and listen to Jim Kelly speak about reviewing the game tape.....he has time and people are open. This is the NFL and you do not get 5-6 seconds to throw the ball. P Manning does not, he just knows what he is doing and where to go with the ball.

[thewildrabbit]

Great QB trumps all! Flutie was very good behind the same OL Johnson was terrible behind. Same for Tom Brady behind the same OL that Drew Bledsoe was horrible behind. Having a great QB makes all the difference in the world. It helps to have a very good OL, don't get me wrong. But a great QB makes up for a lot of the deficiencies.

And Dog, you are the one who has it wrong.....even if we had the best OL Trent would still be bad. He had all the time to throw those last three passes that series against the Titans. He had time to throw that pick six against Miami.

Go and listen to Jim Kelly speak about reviewing the game tape.....he has time and people are open. This is the NFL and you do not get 5-6 seconds to throw the ball. P Manning does not, he just knows what he is doing and where to go with the ball.

Clearly you missed the opener against the Patriots in which Edwards played really well. As the injuries hit the O line, Edwards play declined.

 

Even Jim Kelly stated when he first arrived in Buffalo he couldn't do it by himself, that he needed a decent team around him, and Polian gave it to him.

 

I'm not arguing that Edwards isn't playing poorly recently, I'm arguing that his poor play is the result of getting hit so often and suffering another concussion.

[Guest dog14787]

Great QB trumps all! Flutie was very good behind the same OL Johnson was terrible behind. Same for Tom Brady behind the same OL that Drew Bledsoe was horrible behind. Having a great QB makes all the difference in the world. It helps to have a very good OL, don't get me wrong. But a great QB makes up for a lot of the deficiencies.

And Dog, you are the one who has it wrong.....even if we had the best OL Trent would still be bad. He had all the time to throw those last three passes that series against the Titans. He had time to throw that pick six against Miami.

Go and listen to Jim Kelly speak about reviewing the game tape.....he has time and people are open. This is the NFL and you do not get 5-6 seconds to throw the ball. P Manning does not, he just knows what he is doing and where to go with the ball.

 

 

This argument keeps getting back to TE, you guys want to start a thread and complain about TE then do so, its got nothing to with this silly notion a good QB is going to make a bad O-line good because he's not.

[timba]

This argument keeps getting back to TE, you guys want to start a thread and complain about TE then do so, its got nothing to with this silly notion a good QB is going to make a bad O-line good because he's not.

 

Would you accept that some could successfully work around bad o-line play as opposed to making them good?

[MRW]

This argument keeps getting back to TE, you guys want to start a thread and complain about TE then do so, its got nothing to with this silly notion a good QB is going to make a bad O-line good because he's not.

Would you agree, though, that if a QB can't read a defense, can't sense when pressure is coming, and panics and runs himself into pressure, that he's going to make the line look worse than it really is? Conversely, don't you think a QB who can make quick reads and feel pressure will mask an OL's deficiencies? What PtP and bandit are saying, as I read it, is that a good QB can cover up for a mediocre O-line. Yeah, all things being equal you'd want a good O-line to go with that good QB, but if you have a QB who's not getting the job done odds are it's not just because the O-line stinks, and if you replace him with a better player you might suddenly find that your OL problems are not as bad as you thought.

[PushthePile]

Yea and Cassell didn't even play in college, he was a backup his entire career at USC and yet took his team to a 11-5 record. How is Cassel doing in KC this year 2-7 ? ITS MAGIC!!!!

 

You are the one who brought up Brady (12 sacks) and Manning (8 sacks) they WIN because they are protected and able to throw any pass they want.

 

You are comparing a player in Rodgers who sat behind a legend for 4 years and learned the WEST COAST offense. I hear lots of analysts stating that Rodgers causes all those sacks because he holds on to the ball to long while waiting for his receivers to break open. Besides, he is in a better offensive system with better coaches and better play calling, better receivers and an actual blocking tight end.

Rabbit you are missing the point. I'm not sure how because it has been spelled out clearly for you repeatedly. Cassel is a trainwreck of a QB. He made a decent offensive line look awful last year (47 sacks). Brady is a great QB and has made that same line look great again. A good QB does wonders for a o-line. A good QB this year for the Bills would have made a huge difference in helping our inexperienced line.

 

Rodgers has been under major pressure this year. His line is awful and he still holds the ball too long. Somehow he has produced at the same level as the games best anyway.

 

The point is a good line is undoubtedly important but a great Qb is still capable of making it work. The league has numerous guys who could have made the Bills offense go this year.

[PushthePile]

Your logic on this is flawed again as usual, if the packers had a good O-line they would probably be undefeated like the Colts instead of a game above 500 and not even in the playoffs if the season ended now.

 

Better O-line, WOW ITS MAGIC!!!, the packers are a playoff contender.

Have you seen the Pack play this year? Your analysis of the situation in Green Bay couldn't be more foolish. Undefeated?

[Guest dog14787]

Would you accept that some could successfully work around bad o-line play as opposed to making them good?

 

 

Of course, Big Ben won a championship behind a sub par O-line, but Big Ben is not the norm...

[PushthePile]

The mistakes Jauron made with the current O line and firing Schonert cost him his job. I could see that before the season started the Bills were going to have big problems on the offense. Most everyone else in the country did also because everyone was taking the under in Vegas, which was 7 games.

 

The coaching staff has ruined Trent Edwards much the same way they ruined JP Losman, and they will continue to ruin every young QB they bring in unless they get some decent tackles that can stay healthy and do their Job. I don't foresee Fitz having a ton of success in the current offense if he starts getting hit like Edwards did, particularly if he gets concussed. Those can add up to permanent brain damage and turn a bright young college grad into someone with a lifetime of issues.

 

I hope they don't play Edwards the rest of the season so he gets a chance to recover properly.

Why can't people just admit JP and Trent stink? Yes the coaching staff has been brutal but are these players so fragile that they can't ever be saved? The answer is no. They aren't talented enough and they would have been exposed with any coach. JP is playing where he belongs and Trent would make a decent backup for a secure starter.

[Guest dog14787]

Have you seen the Pack play this year? Your analysis of the situation in Green Bay couldn't be more foolish. Undefeated?

 

 

Yes I have watched Aaron Rodgers get chased around in a few games.

 

They lost to the Vikings twice, both close games, Dallas 7-17 and Cinci 24-31, all very close games to playoff contenders.

 

You mean to tell me you don't think a better O-line would have helped against the playoff contenders they lost to, 3 of them one score games.

 

Your whole argument of a good QB being able to make a bad O-line good is foolish...

[thewildrabbit]

Why can't people just admit JP and Trent stink? Yes the coaching staff has been brutal but are these players so fragile that they can't ever be saved? The answer is no. They aren't talented enough and they would have been exposed with any coach. JP is playing where he belongs and Trent would make a decent backup for a secure starter.

 

Did you watch the opener against NE, did Edwards play well?

[Guest dog14787]

Why can't people just admit JP and Trent stink? Yes the coaching staff has been brutal but are these players so fragile that they can't ever be saved? The answer is no. They aren't talented enough and they would have been exposed with any coach. JP is playing where he belongs and Trent would make a decent backup for a secure starter.

 

 

Awww come on man, JP's gone and TE is sitting on the bench, if you want to come out and openly complain about TE or JP in a thread just do it or add on to the 100 other ones, why disguise it behind some cockamamy topic, " the O-line isn't always to blame"

 

You want to keep complaining about TE, well go ahead, knock yourself out...

[PushthePile]

Yes I have watched Aaron Rodgers get chased around in a few games.

 

They lost to the Vikings twice, both close games, Dallas 7-17 and Cinci 24-31, all very close games to playoff contenders.

 

You mean to tell me you don't think a better O-line would have helped against the playoff contenders they lost to, 3 of them one score games.

 

Your whole argument of a good QB being able to make a bad O-line good is foolish...

They are still very much in the playoff hunt, despite that horrid line. Aaron Rodgers is lighting it up still this year, despite that horrid line. Get it?

 

Yes a better o-line would make any team better but that point is not being disputed nor is it relevant in this thread. Keep making it over and over though.

 

The Pack has been able to score but they can't run the ball. A great RB is not like a great QB, IMO. A RB can't make it work consistently behind a crap o-line. Aaron Rodgers is the biggest reason that team is remotely competitive.

[PushthePile]

Awww come on man, JP's gone and TE is sitting on the bench, if you want to come out and openly complain about TE or JP in a thread just do it or add on to the 100 other ones, why disguise it behind some cockamamy topic, " the O-line isn't always to blame"

 

You want to keep complaining about TE, well go ahead, it, knock yourself out...

Really dog you swoon over TE in every thread and he continues to make you look like a clown. This thread was started to discuss the way a good QB would have performed behind this line. It was inevitable TE was going to be brought up.