BillsVet
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and how many years did it take jabari greer to be anything other than a gunner on ST?
I still think it's too early to pull the plug on Youboty.
UDFA's generally take more time to develop, hence their status as undrafted.
3rd round draft picks, especially for a team like Buffalo, should be expected to play some their first season. Youboty had a family tragedy, though in his second season could not stay on the field. Injuries and inconsistency were to blame, and Greer ultimately took his spot.
CB's can make an impact quicker than most positions. They don't need 2-3 years of seasoning before they're ready.
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Youboty has been working hard in the offseason and he did start to show some signs of coming on late last year. I think Buffalo is likely to keep him on and perhaps Cox gets a spot on the STs and as a reserve safety. I think there will be six CBs this year, mostly due to the fact that the Bills had a lot of injuries at the position last year and also at the safety position. Youboty hasn't had much of an opportunity to play, and I think the Bills give him a shot this year to play. If he doesn't pan out at that point, then he's toodles.
The only time I saw AY make a play last season came in the finale when he picked off a pass. Otherwise, a very non-entity for Buffalo in 07. He played in 11 games, started 3, and seems to have a problem playing through injury. He's had plenty of opportunities to play, given how thin Buffalo was at CB last year. When Youboty was ready to play late in the season, he couldn't get his job back after losing it to former UDFA Jabari Greer.
It tells me quite a bit that the front office decided to take 3 more corners this year. If that's not enough to say what they're thinking, outside of DJ coming out and saying AY isn't all that good, I don't know what is.
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Brandon Pettigrew
OK St.
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What the heck are you talking about? Simpson started his entire rookie season and was part of a secondary that ranked 7th in the league against the pass. He was gonna be a starter this season until he got injuried in the first game of the season. Williams, a 5th rounder, has been a starter and will still be a key member of the DT rotation. Ellison, a 6th rounder, has been a starter. Now he isn't an every game starter but he is good depth and should been a solid STer. Seriously, what else more do you from a 6th round pick?
See, I can't stand posts like this. You think being a Bills fan, you'd be happy with a draft that produced 3 starters, 1 sometime starter, and a quality rotation guy. What more do you want?
Check the boxscores from the preseason games against NO and TEN. The Bills secondary was beaten pretty good, with Whitner and Simpson making plenty of tackles. Drew Brees and Vince Young did this against the starting secondary.
Buffalo loved Kyle Williams so much they went out and got Stroud and Spencer Johnson. That tells me they weren't enamored with an undersized, wave-type DT. In the same way, Buffalo loved Keith Ellison so much that they signed a larger WLB in Kawika Mitchell.
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"Hey James, we're gonna need you to outleap cornerbacks in the endzone all season long, which is a major strength of your game and something you're naturally suited for, and we're also going to need you to catch a deep ball about once every 2-3 games, just enough for teams to respect you as a downfield threat."
Is that really putting SO MUCH pressure on the kid? Why is that "hardly a scenario an offensive coordinator wants?"
Way to oversimplify things there. If it was that easy, Dwayne Jarrett would have caught about 60 passes and scored a few times. (cue Colston reference)
With few exceptions, rookie wide receivers struggle to adjust to different coverages, and more physical corners. Rookie WR's rarely even make the difference you seem to think they can, given the right scheme. In the pros, the CB's also have much better speed, and recover quicker than the college types. That, and the playbook doesn't have a play called "go up and get it."
I'd also point out that Hardy is depending on a young QB, who I believe will be a very good starter, but cannot be expected to be Brady-esque with less than a season's worth of starts in the NFL.
I referred to the OC because he's a rookie play caller as well, who now has a 2nd year QB, experienced downfield WR in Evans, and another rookie (Hardy) to involve in the offense. That, and the lack of a dependable pass catching TE.
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I think the drafting of Omon is a nod to Levy's belief in having competition, even at positions that seem certain.
Omon will definitely give Wright a run for his money. (no pun intended)
I think he'll make it onto the final roster.
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Thought this was a good read on someone who's been flying under the radar. Hadn't realized he'd been through so much.
Also sounds like Derek Fine is a funny guy.
Sorry if already posted.
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I see you are fond of the tom donahoe method of running a team. sign lots of big name over the hill players with no real team direction.
Ask yourself this...after 2005, was that 5-11 team anywhere near making a super bowl run? no it wasnt. the team was in shambles, and by the time the team was ready to make a run, fletcher, milloy, etc, all the guys we "shedded" would have been over the hill and we would have needed their replacements, thus further delaying the development of the team. The Bills chose to take 2 steps back so they could take 3 forward in the future and actually build a team, not just a bunch of names. The only player you can make a case for is clements, and we've been over this enough times to plainly see it was a wiser move to not pay him the insane asking price and pay the OL instead.
You continually bash the 3006 drat for the players being so terrible, but then why is it that all those bad players who were "forced to start" managed to compile a better record than the 2005 "name" team? ITs because they were plain and simply better.
Was that 5-11 record in 2005 a product of being devoid of talent or poor coaching.? Meathead was completely stupid, and yet the season before was 9-7. How then can you describe that it was talent which was the reason for their 2005 losses?
The 2006 draft, in time, will prove to be about two players, neither of whom have established themselves into above-average players, but may very will. I'm speaking of Whitner and McCargo. The others, Youboty, Simpson, K. Williams, Ellison, Merz, and Pennington are or will not be starting quality. Butler could very well be a good starter, but it's hard judging guard play.
All in all, there was no massive rebuild that needed to happen. The improvement from 5-11 to 7-9 should have occurred, with the talent on the roster. I'd say 2005 was underperforming due to bad coaching.
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If rookies are getting so much PT, it says 2 things...
1. the previous regime left the team in a really bad way, almost completely devoid of talent
2. the current FO has been drafting well enough that these rookies are good enough to get that much PT
As for hardy, no there isnt much pressure on him. If defenses continue to double cover evans, hardy will find himself roaming free. He needs to be able to make about 3 catches per game and teams will stop rolling coverage towards lee. Not to mention that this allows reed and parrish to work the slot where both of them are extremely dangerous. All hardy needs to be able to do is put up respectable 40-600-5, and that will free up evans to put up the 80-1200-10 that he's more than capable of.
Almost completely devoid of talent? ML/DJ inherited a team with Evans, Reed, Parrish, Peters, McGahee, Schobel, Kelsay, Denney, Clements, Fletcher-Baker, Spikes, Greer, McGee, Lindell, and Moorman. This was not a total rebuild a la Miami or Atlanta. ML/DJ made it more difficult for themselves.
Of course they've drafted well. Most of their picks in rounds 1-5 have had to start by virtue of their incessant shedding of players. How many of those late picks will be average to good starters in two years? We know Ellison, Pennington, and K. Williams won't be as all of them have been replaced two years after being drafted.
Hardy roaming free? You must assume there are no safeties involved, or linebackers floating in zone coverage like T2 teams run. This is nonsense, Hardy's presence alone will not prevent double teams from Evans, unless he's destroying coverages. How much respect does a rookie WR get anyway? Remember, this is a team with a developing QB, and no proven pass-catching TE.
Having watched Bryant Johnson last season (he was on my fantasy team) i have to say,be thankfull we didnt sign him.It is true that he runs like the wind,but he has hands of steel.The highlights you saw of him catching touchdowns,were after about his 3rd or fourth dropped ball.His recieving ability reminded me of Micheal Gaines recieving abilities
.The Bills made the right call by passing on him.Fantasy football is always the means by which we should judge players.
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but they arent going to rely heavily on James Hardy. He does not need to put up eye-popping numbers to be successful. All he needs to do is take a little bit of pressure off of evans. Having him on the field will make defenses worry more about him, thus freeing up Lee and Marshawn.
Hardy's size alone will not keep defenses from shading toward Evans. He'll have to prove he's dangerous, and not just in the RZ. Unless he's consistently embarrassing opponents the length of the field, teams aren't going to respect a player because he's taller. It may work initially, but not long term. Eventually he's going to have to make some plays. That's putting a lot of pressure on a rookie WR to take the focus from an established star. Hardly the scenario an offensive coordinator wants when trying to spark an anemic offense.
This team, for three straight years, has depended heavily on rookies. Whitner, McCargo, Simpson, Lynch, Posluszny, Edwards and now McKelvin and Hardy. If rookies are getting so much PT each year, what does that say about the front office?
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How does giving Johnson a 1-year contract solve any issues at WR? Are we not still forced to draft a reciever in the first 2 rounds, or will he continue to help the team after he's cashed in somewhere else?
It's apparent Jauron isn't worried so much about 2009, but rather keeping his job after 2008. He's been given every opportunity to succeed after the acquisitions of this off-season.
Bryant Johnson realized he wasn't getting the long term deal he figured to get. He signed for one year in SF.
If Edwards has been anointed the starter, and he has, shouldn't the franchise surround him with all the talent to win as quickly as possible? Everyone knows if just one guard or tackle goes down, it's Kirk Chambers and Jason Whittle to the rescue.
Meanwhile, the Bills offense will rely heavily on a rookie at WR. I daresay they'd have been better off grooming Hardy under a Bryant Johnson, allowing Johnson to leave, and getting Hardy to start in his second year. Then again, why support your starting QB with OL and WR's. This team's never really done that, across the Donahoe, Levy, and quasi-Brandon eras.
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The fact you state it certainly a good theory which seems to bear itself out often if fact, however, this is simply a theory which often but does not always apply. The way to actually check on whether what you said is a theory that applies in a particular case is simply a deeper examination which also looks to the results achieved.
In 2006. the Bills did find several starters in the second day of the draft. However, it is also a fact that this team which started a 4th rounder at FS, a 5th rounder at DT and a 6th rounder at RT also improved its W/L from 5-11 without these rookies to 9-7 with these second day rookies (and first day rookie Whitner).
The theory that the Bills simply started bad players does not take into that these "bad" players played a pivotal role in helping the team improve its record.
PG, I'd be interested to see how many of those 06 picks are starting just two years later. We know Kyle Williams, Keith Ellison, and perhaps even Simpson won't be. What's that say about the 2006 team? IMO, it means they were so darn thin they had to start these guys. It was a 7-9 season, and those "starters" aren't going to be starting anymore. This speaks less to the quality of the draft and more to the degree they stripped this team.
Nobody is talking about big money for a #2 WR or CB.Bryant Johnson for a 1 year contract for $2 mil would have provided a #2 WR at a cheap price for 2008, freeing the Bills to take the best players in the early part of the draft. The pick could have been a WR, knowing that WRs typically take 3 years to become funcitional in the NFL, with Johnson as the transition. Or it cuold have been an OL. The bills could have moved around in the rounds, as they have in the past to get the player they wanted.
The front office forced themselves into a corner (and a WR) by what they did in free agency before the draft. They coudl have easily fit an OL into the top of the draft if they had chosen to not ignore the OL completely.
The Bills talked about not signing FA's to one year deals. Well, that's a great principle, but it could hurt in the long run, especially because WR's take time to develop. Bryant Johnson, DJ Hackett, and others were available for a pittance. Apparently the FO wanted to go the cheaper route and draft someone who'll take time. Buffalo always drafts for needs in the first two rounds. They've done it in three straight drafts with Whitner, McCargo, Lynch, Posluszny, McKelvin, and Hardy. If you're drafting for need three years running, something's wrong with those who build the team.
And BTW, isn't Buffalo about 22M below the cap? It's absurd to talk about 2-3M when they've got so much room to navigate. This is the prime reason they draft for need, and why it'll take a minimum of three years to get this team out of playoff jail.
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On the surface, no O line before round 5 looks/sounds alarming. However, consider the fact that for the last 3 drafts, there has been a huge run on O line in rounds 1 and 2. When it's our turn to pick in round 3, and you're looking at the 15th best tackle, or the 10th best guard, it's kinda hard not to pick the 3rd best QB(Edwards) if he is still there.
Edit: Not saying Edwards is worse than anybody, just talking about his draft grade at the time.
Yeah, if it was between an Edwards or the 10th rated guard, no question you've got to go with Edwards. In a league where perhaps 1/3 of the teams have a decent QB, that's more than acceptable.
We can sit here all day and go back and forth over what to take in the mid rounds, but the team has made their decision on OL. Hopefully there aren't any catastrophic injuries this season, but that's a risk in and of itself. It's been said before here many times that if you think you've got a franchise QB, find the players to surround him with. That goes not only for skill positions, but also in the trenches as well.
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The Bills are on OL thin ice...
I think that's all some are saying in this thread. IMO, most fans like the 07 and 08 drafts on the surface. The one detail which has been overlooked is not drafting OL, with no OL picked before round 5 in three straight drafts.
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I totally agree that we have not spent enough resources in the past on the OL but I just don't understand why now....at this point in time.....it has become a huge bash the current FO & HC issue. We are talking about one mid round pick that had it been selected then this storm in a teacup would not be here. It seems to me that because the 2008 draft did not contain a 20% chance mid-round OL prospect then all of the sins of the past are dumped upon the FO & HC.
This is ridiculous. The current regime has shown patients in their first draft.....paying dividends by not squandering a 1st rounder on LT when we had a probowler in the making(Peters). They then re-sign Peters and bring in 2 good FAs. At what point has the current regime shown that they are not aware of the OL issues? Since they have been astute & on the ball so far, why is there absolutely no trust in them that they just may have some idea of the talent that we have.....as well as potential backup talent which may be gotten via FA(for depth purposes)?
Dibs, I think it'd have been ridiculous to go with Branden Albert, Jeff Otah, Chris Williams, et al in the first. On that I can agree. I can also see the need to go WR and DE in the 2nd and 3rd. The Bills generally have a need in the 1st and 2nd, and they use those rounds to fill needs. They did it in 06, 07, and now in 08.
In the fourth, it sounded like their draft board wasn't stressing OL. There was talk that had Martin Rucker or Lowery (who went to NYJ) been available, they'd have selected one of them. That's speculation, but decent OL were available.
I will also agree that you cannot bash a draft just days afterward for the difference in opinion over a 4th or 5th round pick.
With that in mind, I don't understand how, in two consecutive years, the Bills have drafted the same position in the first four rounds. Last year Lynch and Wright went 1st and 4th. This year, same with McKelvin and Corner.
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You say this as if it's a bad thing. Didn't New England* "luck" into Tom Brady? What's your point? It's great that Peters turned into the LT he is, because it allowed the Bills to focus on other areas.
Your second sentence is idiotic. The Bills drafted for a STARTING corner; if they needed STARTERS on the OL I'd be looking for them to draft there. Believe it or not, OL DEPTH falls below DB STARTERS in priority.
You "think" it's safe to say? Got a hidden microphone at OBD, do ya? More ridiculousness. How do I describe 7 DBs in 3 years? Competition. Three of them will be starting on opening day (Whitner, McKelvin, Simpson). Another will likely be the nickel (Corner). That's pretty good drafting.
Tell me when DB's can pass protect for a QB in the pocket. Tell me when they run block to give your RB a chance to get more than 4 ypc. Please.
San Francisco paid a king's ransom for their secondary (Clements, Michael Lewis, et al) and still their team is poor. Part of it is related to QB play, and part is due to a lackluster OL they've only recently began to address.
My reasoning for DJ being the deciding factor in picks? How about he's a former NFL DB? How about Day 1 in 2006? With extreme weaknesses on OL and DL, they take 3 DB's in their first 4 picks. Predominantly in rounds 1-3, Buffalo's taken a host of defensive players. Think that's not related to the HC? I do. Especially considering that 6 of their 9 picks in rounds 1-3 the past three drafts have been defenders. And that's considering they already had Schobel, Kelsay, McGee, Crowell, and signed Stround, Mitchell, S. Johnson, and Tripplett. Yes, DJ is the decider at OBD on draft day.
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That's because the Bills needed an influx of talent at SO MANY POSITIONS. How many times do we need to go over this? Donahoe left the cupboard bare -- not just on OL, but throughout the roster. Butler, by the way, is no slouch and pretty highly regarded.
Spare me the "real fan" b.s. Free agency is a way of bringing in proven talent, as opposed to taking a chance on somebody you "hope" performs well based upon what he did in college. There are good and bad FA signings, just as there are good and bad draft picks. A sound strategy includes BOTH FA and the draft to build a team. A year ago the Bills HAD NO CHOICE but to buy their OL because the Donahoe administration completely ignored it (and swung and missed with Williams). Was it unwise for them to do so? Hell no it wasn't.
You and others keep insisting the Bills should be spending early draft picks on the OL when they STILL NEED TO ADDRESS OTHER WEAKNESSES. Once the team is solid overall, depth can be sought.
After two complete drafts, two free agency periods, and two seasons worth of games, the OLdepth still isn't a priority? When you've got Kirk Chambers, a street free agent, Duke Preston, who needs no introduction, and Whittle, who's 33 and missed most of last season, it better be.
Liberally using FA is the penalty for drafting poorly. All teams with long term success draft well. Case in point: NE, IND, SD, NYG, GB, perhaps JAC, PHI, and PIT.
As for the OL, no one is saying that it's required to use a first each year there. However, as Dawgg pointed out in an earlier post, finding good OG's is possible in the mid-rounds. This team eschews the OL, because they believe they've got solid starters and backups. Thing is, they don't. Not at least the backups.
The priorities on a football team will always be:
1. QB
2. OL (specifically at LT)
3. DL (specifically a pass rushers)
Once those pieces are in place, it's much easier to win.
DJ and Marv lucked into Jason Peters just as Donahoe did. If OL depth is not a weakness, then DB's aren't either. OL almost always trumps a defensive secondary in importance to the team. Then again, not to this HC.
And if people think Modrak makes the final decision on draft day, I think it's safe to now say he doesn't. Modrak prepares everyone for the draft, and Jauron, because his head is in the noose, is getting to make the picks. How else can you describe 7 DB's taken in 3 years?
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THIS administration (the last 2+ years) has addressed the OL in a big way...just not through the draft. The team as a whole was so devoid of talent it was impossible to focus on just one area through the draft. I don't disagree with your comments with respect to what Donahoe did -- that was a mess.
Now that the overall talent pool has been strengthened in Buffalo, I believe you'll see a draft strategy that looks to bring in higher round linemen to replenish the ranks and build depth in the future.
While DJ's had his run of draft day, Buffalo's spent four late picks (out of 26 total selections) on OL in three drafts. That's practically nothing. Pennington and Merz were cut, Bell is a project, and Butler starts because Whittle and Preston were all the competition he had last year in camp.
Any real fan knows that using free agency liberally is a penalty for drafting poorly. The Bills under Donahoe didn't draft decent OL and went with bargain basement types. In 2006-07, the Buffalo was forced to pay through the nose for free agent OL (Dockery, Walker, and Fowler) and somehow that negates having to use a first day pick for an OL? Wouldn't it be better to have options on OL in case of injury as opposed to options at CB in a C2 defense?
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The Bills have actually been more successful with undrafted free agents than guys picked in rounds 4-7
It's amazing how, with a team bereft of talent, people think late round picks making a thin roster is a success.
Not to say the 08 late round picks are complete garbage (they're not-yet) but the chances a 5th, 6th, or 7th round pick
makes the team and plays well is slim to almost none.
I'd refer people to Draft History and review the picks made from rounds 5-7. Usually, not more than 3-5 players become good NFL starters from those rounds. The rest don't cut it.
UDFA's probably have more success because there are so many of them. Most teams sign 10 or more each offseason. That's 320 players versus only about 100 picked in those three late rounds.
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Under Jauron, the Bills have spent exactly 4 draft picks out of 26 on OL. By contrast, they've selected 7 DB's.
None of the OL picked came before the fifth round. Two of them (Pennington and Merz) were cut. Of the two remaining, one starts (Butler) and another is a project (Bell) who'll probably be on the PS if he makes it.
Whittle and Chambers are the only decent backups and represent a significant drop-off in talent from the starter. Just one injury on the OL could force this team to make a huge departure in gameplanning. That's a risk no front office should take. Then again, with DJ having so much input with no GM, it's not hard to see them taking those 7 DB's versus 4 late round OL.
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Jauron correctly alluded to the fact that he will be judged on the results of this season (I paraphrase of course). I fear that because of this, his "play not to lose" mentality will increase, not decrease. I view the selection of McKelvin at #11 as evidence of this. It might work, whereas many factors are involved.
All we can do is hope for the best case scenario, which is that our guys play well and that Jauron develops onto a first rate coach. It could happen, right?
What happens when a supervisor has been given the produce or else speech from higher? They start micromanaging everything and make it a point to stand over the shoulder of all their people.
Bill, I'd agree with you. All the bluster about Schonert changing things up and creating an offense that is high powered is unfounded. Schonert made the following comment on being hired:
"We're going to be more diversified than the past two years," said Schonert. "I'm probably going to be a more aggressive play caller than what we saw last year. I can't say what we're going to be to this point, but I know where I want us to be."
Does anyone think Jauron will allow a first time OC to do this? Nothing since the year 2001 gives me this impression.
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I laugh at his stupid press conferences after those games. "'I'm proud of our guys"..."They played hard"..."We just didn't get the breaks"..."Blah blah blah blah". I've had it with him. I can now only wait and hope he can change his style and actually beat the good teams in 2008. History says he won't do that.
How about this gem after the season finale against Philly?
"Offensively we did a pretty good job of not turning (the ball) over. I think the fact that we didn't turn the ball over today at all, and didn't have very many penalties in that football game, kept us in the game. Obviously, the fact that we don't score, we don't get it in the endzone, is the difference in the football game.
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At this point, Dick Jauron's greatest enemy is not any other team. It's himself. All too often in his coaching career, he's demonstrated an inability to win against better teams. The latest examples remain the Dallas and Denver games from last season. Those were perfectly winnable games which, because of incompetent coaching, went down as losses.
What about 2006? Anyone recall the San Diego game when 2 timeouts were used to review a Peerless Price non-catch? Or losing at Detroit when Roy Williams ran roughshod over the secondary? Tennessee anyone in 2006? There is a trend here, and it's not going away. People talk about continuity, but if the HC is continually bad, little will change.
Some will say it's DJ's lack of personnel. That may have been the case in 06 and parts of 07 but won't be that way in 08. Buffalo has been rebuilding since DJ became HC in 06 and this season, barring injuries to the entire team, I expect to see a playoff team. That's the worst case scenario. Anything less is unacceptable.
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And I find it interesting that you continue to slag him in light of the of QB instability he was saddled with in CHI.
"In that playoff game, Miller was again injured, this time seperating his shoulder, and the 2001 season promptly ended."
Whatever floats your boat, I suppose...
Why is Jauron always saddled with QB problems?
This is a guy who's had complete personnel authority for two franchises and hasn't figured it out. IMO, you can't blame QB play when the coach is in charge of getting the person to play the position! If he's not finding the right guy to play under center, it's his own dang fault.
The Bills do NOT spend more picks on the secondary
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Where does Buffalo rank since 2006? I'd be interested to see that.
The Bills have selected 7 DB's out of 26 total picks, or about 1/4 of their selections.
2006: Donte Whitner, Ashton Youboty, and Ko Simpson
2007: John Wendling
2008: Leodis McKelvin, Reggie Corner, Kennard Cox
DJ also inherited Clements and McGee. The Bills FO cut Milloy and Vincent, while signing William James this past off-season. Bryan Scott was signed off the street free agent list, as was Jeremetrius Butler in 2007.
Needless to say, the Bills have performed several acquisitions in only a few offseasons, headlined by 7 DB's taken.