GregPersons

Reality can be challenging! Did you assume that language did not change? Did you think the language of racism has not changed? Why are you calling them "Black and Brown" people then? Change is hard!

Black and Brown people can discriminate against White people, yes. Unless they have a time machine, they can't change the fact that as a White person, if you are harassed and call the police, you are more likely to be believed and accommodated than the Black and Brown people. That is why they can't be racist. The distinction is (relatively) new, so it's fine to be a bit confused. However, the reason it is necessary is because the language is limited and needs to evolve to match our understanding of it. Racism's definition including the systemic aspect is more accurate to what the word needs to convey. Racism's definition NOT including the systemic aspect implies that it is something equally felt by White people, but that is not true. It's not the same level of discrimination, and conflating it is both incorrect and morally wrong. Racism is generational and institutional and everything else. And if we want to blame people for not having more words for race, it should be directed at the people who made those decisions. You don't have to blame only COINTELPRO but it's a good start

It's difficult for White Americans to talk about race, for a number of reasons. 1) The language is incomplete. For as much as we talk about it, we still only have the one root word - "race" - and various derivatives, racism, racist, etc. 2) It is deliberate intentional manipulation to ensure, above all else, that White People are discouraged to think about race. 3) If a White Person is forced to think about race, our culture has provided many convenient and quick explanations and dismissals in order to stop thinking about it So it makes sense that it seems like nobody can agree on basic What is racism?Racism is the systemic oppression of people based on their physical character.What is prejudice, and how is it different?Prejudice is the action of making assumptions about people based on their identity. Prejudice is different from racism because "pre judging" is a human brain function in response to incomplete information. It is the brain's version of auto-correct, and can only be turned off through learning. But prejudice can never be eliminated completely any more than fear can be eliminated. On the other hand, racism is a human-made mental framework for viewing other humans that is entirely optional. What you're saying is prejudice is what racism is, though. And even the dictionary... ...will show you multiple definitions; these two definitions. The previous understanding of racism as being simply a matter of character allowed White America to go a few generations thinking, "As long as I don't scream the N word at an N word, I am pretty much not racist." In other words, language evolves.What is discrimination, and how is it different?Discrimination is the action of categorizing the abilities of people based on their identity.Am I racist?Probably, but you don't have to be racist. If you are born white in America, you are experiencing life with the benefits of racism. "You", as in your identity, are not any more "racist" than you are "American" or "capitalist" — as in, you are free to choose your identity. We've all been programmed to accept our American and capitalist identities very explicitly. We have also been programmed to accept our racist identities, too, just much less explicitly, and never by its name. Oh great. So all white people are racist? In the sense that they are born into racism, yes. And the actions they take before understanding their complicity are racist, because they perpetuate the system. In the sense that white people have to be racist, no. White people can choose to be anti-racist, but good intentions don't count; this is only measured in action. Sorry! There is nothing you can do about it. White Americans are born into being racist, by design. Thankfully, the result is that White Americans live in a country largely built for their pleasure and benefit, at the expense of exploited minority groups. Being born into racism for White Americans means hundreds of years of access to opportunities like education and generational wealth in a rigged system. It's unfortunate that generations of White Americans are born into this system they did not initially create themselves, but as far as the confines of slavery go... COULD BE WORSE!!!!!! Why don't Americans know more about race?You mean "white Americans," of course. Every other race in America experiences racism first-hand on a daily basis. White people are specifically taught not to think about race. This teaching is given to them implicitly, and explicitly ("it's not polite").Famously, COINTELPRO concocted many of the methods still in use today to distract white Americans from racism, and to discredit the claims of black Americans. It's the textbook definition of mind control, and we've all been subjected to the fruits of this labor.In other words, if you are a white American who is only now confronting the reality of race — it's okay. You are forgiven. You literally were not supposed to know. Admittedly, people have been telling you for a long time, but, you know. Better late than never. Welcome aboard.What is a bigot, and how is that different?A bigot is a person who has chosen hateful discrimination as their identity.Can a black person be racist?Yes. Racist should be thought of as a verb, not a noun. Candace Owens is racist when she supports the structures of systemic oppression. Barack Obama being elected is not racist; it tears down those structures. Obama's response to Trayvon Martin's shooting is racist; it upholds those structures.Can a black person be racist to a white person?No. There is no action that can be taken that will remove the white person's inherent advantages of being born into a society built to benefit them. Any person can be prejudiced (ie, "all white people marry their cousins") but it is not racism. Ironically, you could hate black people and still oppose racism — prejudice is inherent to the human condition. Racism is a construct.Isn't "Affirmative Action" racist against whites?Not in the least, and not only is this question stupid, it's offensive in the way it uses the white system of control over black Americans as a way to reframe the issue with white beneficiaries of racism as somehow also the victims.Affirmative Action is the mandate that hiring decisions consider applicants' accomplishments with the historical context of racism in mind. Applicants born into generational advantages in education and wealth will naturally have more impressive resumes than applicants who were denied those advantages.In other words, Affirmative Action is just asking corporate America to consider the country's actual history in their evaluation of human potential. This remains controversial.What about meritocracy?Meritocracy is a lie sold to poor people by rich people. Meritocracy is the idea that the differences in opportunities and rewards for people is earned by their individual value. Whatever your station, it is deserved. This benefits white people as another way to ignore the reality of racism. If cream rises to the top, how is Donald Trump president? "Manifest Destiny" is a similar idea, and justified Americans to declare the genocide of Native Americans to be legal. If our definition of meritocracy is simply what the most effective method is, then the proper way for people to protest would be to use the same methods White Americans did to conquer the country for themselves. It is by the grace of God that oppressed people have never been out for vengeance on White America, only peace. White people have responded to each overture with manipulation and violence, and never reconciliation or aide.Doesn't history prove white people are objectively superior?There is no such thing as objectivity. Objectivity imposes the idea that reality can be measured outside of perception with absolute certainty. This is a method of control to remove responsibility for decision making in enforcing the status quo, of what you are told is "objective truth." For example — White Kevin's resume has tons of experience; Black Marquita's does not. It is objectively true that Kevin's resume is more impressive, just on the merits.The decision to discriminate against black people then becomes automatic; unthinking. With each individual racist action (every time HR chooses Kevin), the overall racism grows stronger.Isn't this problem too big to ever really solve? What's the point of talking about it?Pessimism is also a form of control on white Americans, who are are intentionally programmed to feel uncomfortable and attacked on the subject of race. The desire is in there, on a gut level, to want to either check out ("I need to take a break from social media") or move on ("We need to come together and unify") or avoid it completely ("racism isn't a day-to-day problem for most people; this ended a long time ago").You will be provided many types of excuses to ignore racism. Racism works only if unexamined.What does something from hundreds of years ago have to do with me?Are you concerned that the US might devolve into being a fascist death cult like Nazi Germany? What if you learned America has been systemically imprisoning and executing minority populations for many many many decades longer?If killing 6+ million Jewish people in Europe was the worst crime against humanity you could imagine, wait until you hear about the generations of torture and death white America has applied to black America.I regret to inform you that this war crime is ongoing. The police and prison industry in America has modernized the "classic" form of Southern slavery but the overall effect is the same. Consider a newly egregious example: marijuana is legal in many states and soon nationwide. White America is profiting from selling it legally. Black America was criminalized for selling it. Thousands of Americans, all POC or Black, remain in jail to this day and even in states where marijuana is now fully legalized. This is one example of the double standard applied, and the ways Black Americans have been systemically plundered, punished, humiliated, imprisoned, tortured, and killed for the benefit of White America.If I'm not a black American, shouldn't I just be quiet and listen?You should listen first, and then you should talk — and talk a lot.White America has never gone out of its way to help Black America, as a group. Only in the most desperate times they kind of show up — Civil War and maybe 60s Civil Rights — and even then it was not a full commitment in any way.That is changing, and must continue to change. Black Americans and POC cannot be expected to be fight this battle alone. But I'm a straight white male...And you have value. Racism insists that your only value is that you are a straight white male. You have far more value than that. You can demonstrate it by exposing the lie of racism. Your appearance and treatment affords you many privileges exclusive to you. This enables you to be the "inside man" of the operation. You can blend among racists, and find it easier. Someone who behaves racist may conceal this trait around a black person, but reveal it to you. It is your duty and moral objective to not let it slide when you're given the opportunity. Your mission is to confront it and humiliate it. This is your test from God, in a sense.... if you think that "God" simply means "Life" as in capital-l, all living creatures everywhere, the value of the experience of living.Fighting racism is your test from Life itself to show that you believe it has real value. Is that enough incentive? lolWhat can I do to fight racism?Everything matters. Racism was not built in a day. It will not be destroyed in a day. It will require consistent, dedicated attention, talk and action.The problem is very big, and it's not changing shape unless small minds expand. White Americans need to speak out more, and need to challenge the racism in their own communities as much as possible. Not just families and classmates or coworkers or neighbors. But also, all of the online communities you are part of beyond Era or Twitter.At the same time, recognize you are fighting an idea and a system, not an individual or group of individuals. In other words, you're not going to be able to save all hearts and minds. Adults who don't want to learn can't be forced. Racism requires all kinds of delusions and magical thinking; some people want to stay in The Matrix and aren't ready for the reality. Don't let any one person distract you from the larger goal. (This is also why it's not worth "debating" racists. There is nothing to debate. It's very simple, black or white. Black lives matter, or they don't. Neutral is not an option. If you're neutral, you've decided "don't matter" but with extra cowardice.)One thing we can do is to ensure racists are no longer comfortable anywhere. The same tactics of harrassment racists used against minorities can now be used by anybody against anyone who defends or upholds racism. What about donating, protesting, voting, and participating in local government?Obviously these are great too, but you already knew about these. But I know how sometimes it can seem like too much. If you're not in the habit of going to the gym regularly, going for the first time seems impossible. And so it is for these activities.The main takeaway from all of this should be — there is no action too small in the work fighting racism. It all matters. There are all sorts of forms of racism that are microscopic. Racism is everywhere and in everything in America; it is part of the fabric of our society, it's the cotton that made the quilt that helps us all sleep and dream in American.Every little thing matters. The challenge is to not let the upholders of racism succeed yet again in persuading us all to ignore the issue again. Let this be the beginning of generations of Americans who actually take pride in helping other people up, instead of keeping them down. What is going to happen in this thread? Playbook-wise, Racists are operating a ground-n-pound offense. Traditional. Established. Predictable. Reliable. Clockwork. But, to their credit, also bluntly effective. Their overall goal — Stop thinking about racism as soon as possible. By all means necessary, return to the established model. —There will be no shortage of attempts to discredit every thing I am saying. It won't be any thorough response. It will be multiple attempts to take one half of a phrase, contest it on the basis of semantics, and conclude this is why it all needs to be dismissed. —There will be attacks on the messenger; me. These will take the form of various guesses toward my personal identity, and my motivations. Anti-racism is not enough of a reason that racists can understand. There will be conspiracy theories. —There will be a lot, a lot, a lot of people insisting that White people can be the victims of racism, and in fact they are perhaps the BIGGEST victims of racism out of anybody. These claims will go as far as to say any suggestion otherwise is nonsense. They will not see any of the cruel irony in their statements, or if they do, they will not be bothered by them. How can I not be racist?First you understand what it means to be racist, with clarity. And then you work against the systemic oppression of people based on their physical character. If it helps you to understand it, compare American racism like the Christian idea of "being born into sin." (This is why it's called America's "original sin.") You start from a baseline of racism and take positive actions to work toward the redemption of a country built on bull####. It is continual actions. They don't have to be big. It just means not tolerating racism in your life. In your home. In your workplace. In your community. As a White American, you have both the advantages of the racist society, but if you decide to be a hero about it, you also have the advantage of blending in and finding "shameful racists" who only feel comfortable admitting their real hate to other white people. What you can to be Anti-racist is to simply not allow any safe quarter for racists in America, going forward, under any circumstances. This past week is the last moral wake-up call for White America. This is a life-long battle, and neutrality is not an option if you live in American society. Not choosing a side is choosing the side of the racist structure. So if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. tl;dr Racism is not our fault. But it is our responsibility. Racists have been treated with kid gloves for long enough, and need to be made to understood they are no longer welcome in America. The idea of remaining neutral is long gone. You are either horrified by the treatment of black people in America — either you think they are being systemically brutalized by a hateful ideology enacted by unthinking and unfeeling masses, or you think they're whiny idiots who want a free ride and special status as #1 victim. White people, more than anyone, need to nut up and show some backbone. It is time for White America to live up to their stated ideals of freedom, liberty, equality, and justice and enforce those ideals for their countrymen in their home turf. And it's time to stop pretending. This is only a "tough debate" if you can't imagine White Americans ever possibly being a force in the world that isn't entirely destructive. Hope this helps! Peace and love.

Question — did you ever see reports of uses of deadly force where the imminent threat was claimed but did not appear justified? How rare or frequent did you personally see this? And how much do you suspect it happens nationwide? Not rhetorical; genuinely asking.

Sure, 6pm PST works. However, it does need to be one-on-one. It's not more efficient having everyone on one call, but thank you for the tip. Alright! I will indeed give it to you. Unfortunately, I am realizing the need for a separate thread on this, because I think this kind of remedial refresher is needed for the whole class and not just you. Here are What is racism?Racism is the systemic oppression of people based on their physical character.What is prejudice?Prejudice is the action of making assumptions about people based on their identity. What is discrimination?Discrimination is the action of categorizing the abilities of people based on their identity. Am I racist?Probably, but you don't have to be racist. If you are born white in America, you are experiencing life with the benefits of racism. "You", as in your identity, are not any more "racist" than you are "American" or "capitalist" — as in, you are free to choose your identity. We've all been programmed to accept our American and capitalist identities very explicitly. We have also been programmed to accept our racist identities, too, just much less explicitly, and never by its name.How can I not be racist?You work against the systemic oppression of people based on their physical character. Think of racism like the Christian idea of "being born into sin." You start from a baseline of racism. You work toward redemption by taking actions to remove the societal structures of oppression. The only way to not be racist is to be Antiracist; actively opposing it. No action is too small; racism is insidious and microscopic. But it is continual. It is not a one-time donation. Actively hateful people, whether they understand the implications of their racism, continue to advocate for the same old racist ideas. Often, their advocations go unchallenged. Largely because racist people are extremely unpleasant. They're already socially unpopular and inept, so why would anyone seek them out? (ie, this board). Unfortunately, ignoring racism only perpetuates it. Ignorance is the oxygen of racism.Who is a bigot, and how is that different?A bigot is a person who has chosen hateful discrimination as their identity.Can a black person be racist?Yes. Racist should be thought of as a verb, not a noun. Candace Owens is racist when she supports the structures of systemic oppression. Barack Obama being elected is not racist; it tears down those structures. Obama's response to Trayvon Martin's shooting is racist; it upholds those structures.Can a black person be racist to a white person?No. There is no action that can be taken that will remove the white person's inherent advantages of being born into a society built to benefit them. Any person can be prejudiced (ie, "all white people marry their cousins") but it is not racism. Ironically, you could hate black people and still oppose racism — prejudice is inherent to the human condition. Racism is a construct. Take some time before you respond to show you gave it some consideration. I'll be creating a thread that expands on this as a kind of FAQ for people who are not used to hearing about race (ie, older white people who don't know many black people irl).

This is a good example of how whiteness really makes mediocre men over-estimate their value. Obviously you know that's not how any of it works. There is no release that exists in legal history that could give you such a guarantee. You can't sign a contract that will control other people outside of the contract (ie, anybody who would take the video and do whatever with it.) But it's an interesting idea, I wonder where you got it. How do you rationalize your real reasons, I wonder? Do you feel embarrassed that you can only share your views anonymously, or in whispers? And you feel, "well, because I'm not in the KKK, I'm not racist" and believe yourself? Somewhat rhetorical. Somewhat really asking. It just seems like a lot of work to maintain the various amounts of layers of delusion required to believe the things you guys believe. I feel like I could see you arguing with a Stop sign that it actually means Go.

Yeah fun thing about that, I guess "I was asking for it" but, and I'm sure this was just a very interesting coincidence, I found myself unable to log into the site yesterday with firewall blocking phishing attempts on my account here. I'm not so easily deterred, though, and very much would like to schedule for this week. Today is an option, too. Let me know if you have availability. Wait. Didn't we leave off with you defining racism? I remember you took one guess and I told you that wasn't it. Did you do another definition? Tasker, what set of criteria do you use to evaluate people? Individually and in group scale?

I put Deranged AND billsfan1959 on ignore so I'm sure this page is just frothing with insanity aside from reddog's post, which made me chuckle. If Rhino thinks he's opening eyes by revealing Biden is a bad candidate, he might consider next reporting that water is wet.

I like that you think you're making a good point instead of just posting a poorly made graphic. The Democrats bill proposal to police reform might've been a better and more relevant example to bring up today. Maybe you haven't gotten your assigned talking point about it yet. It sucks ass. It's a bunch of half measures that distract from the problem. It shows they're not listening and don't care. Minnesota has gone further than Pelosi and Biden. Ridiculous. You posted a second Biden meme, again, like you're revealing something "hidden." Biden is racist as *****, dude! Are you going to blow my mind with Anita Hill next?

What data are you lacking? The existence of racism, or of police brutality? What about the most recent data? In Los Angeles, and across the country, protests all weekend. In LA, for the first time, the occupying military left the streets and there was no curfew. Guess what didn't happen? @Deranged Rhino do you know what happened this weekend at the protests? They were entirely peaceful and without incident. And as it just so happens, these also happened to be the ones with the least amount of cop / soldier intervention. What conclusions can we draw from this data? Anyway, otherwise, thanks for your unasked for assessment of my character. I simply want to present a challenge that requires conviction and courage to a bloc of people I suspect are all cowards. A poster, earlier in thread, volunteered to do a call. He even threw out his real name and twitter handle. I don't advise anyone to do that. But of course he's not afraid to share his views because he's not ashamed of them, because he's not advocating for racism. It seems to only be when people are advocating for racism, but don't want to use the word and identify it so baldly, that it seems to be some kind of moral quandary and something to get mealy-mouthed about. So you're interested in putting your face / voice with your writing here on cam, or no?

Fair reservations. I can definitely put together a contract that guarantees that, or you're welcome to present one to me. Either way that's a reasonable request, and I will accomodate. And as to your blackballed, again, I encourage you to not reveal your name or location. Merely your face / voice / fact you are a Bills fan / that these are posts from TSW. Yeah?

OK I am logging off now, but since you got this in under the window, I will give you a bonus chance and tell you that is not the correct definition. You are permitted to take another swing. I will return!

I'm not in Buffalo and I've said my general location before but won't repeat it, because I wouldn't ask it (though I do still want @billsfan1959 to back up his claim about his career as a police officer, and since civil servants career records are a matter of public record, that is more than fair). Similarly, I would not ask any of you to meet me in person anywhere, so I'm not interested but thank you. This thread is purely for online video conferencing, or for submitting a video recording of your posts, which I am willing to pay for. All I want to do is to show what Bills Fans think about what has been happening in Buffalo and nation wide. It's not as though the Bills Fans don't have thoughts! They do! But it's different reading versus seeing/hearing it, I think we can all agree.

My labels have all been correctly applied. Feel free to point out which instance you think I was wrong in labeling. In which case was a post I called racist or Nazi not representative of those ideas? Show me where I was wrong. You then continue to not understand and show you didn't read or comprehend anything, by insisting this is somehow a Democrat or Republican thing. Minds like yours are too small for a problem this massive. But that's just my opinion. I'd love if you agreed to share these thoughts, on camera. No need for identifying information -- don't share your real name or location -- just use your face/mouth/voice to say these posts on camera or in a video conference call. I'll pay you for your time.

Honey, I've given you the answer multiple times and watched your brain selectively not receive it, each and every time. This is now quiz time, hot shot. You're dodging and dodging and dodging.... I've been logged on now for an hour, and neither you or @Cinga have responded to this. It shouldn't take more than a sentence or two to define "racism" and "racist." I shouldn't have to ask you again. I'm logging off now (just so Cinga doesn't worry) so, when I log back on, if you want to continue with me, you need to first supply these definitions. I'd also appreciate if you signed up and confirmed you will participate in expressing your thoughts out loud, on camera. Since you now have more than enough time, you are completely out of excuses. What is racism? What is a racist? Feel free to tell me how I am being racist, as well.

Record yourself saying your posts from this thread, out loud -- no name, no location -- and send it to me. I'll pay you for your work. Maybe Sheldon will appreciate seeing a fan in the compilation.

I can work around a busy schedule. In the same time it would take you to post, you could say out loud some of the posts you've already written — which will be shown in full, and they are your words, so there's nothing manipulative about that either — and I am even offering, repeatedly, to pay you for this. Just seems like a lot of excuses. Everybody has time to post this stuff. Why not just say it with your face? You're not even saying it to another person's face. You're just saying it to your camera. I could not make this any easier. What's the catch? Obviously I disagree with you. But that doesn't matter to you, does it? So why not just record a video of yourself saying some of your posts? Doesn't even have to be a conference call, actually. You can just record yourself saying 5 of your posts, and I will pay you in full. You could even just tell us about some of your favorite memes to express your opinion. I think you should just let fellow Bills Fans across the nation know that we are everywhere, and this is what we believe. Buffalo as a city is being called all sorts of things. As a Bills fan, shouldn't you get a say? That's what I'm offering. All you have to do is take any of your cameras, and record yourself telling me any of your posts.

It's a prejudiced assumption, you're right! I wonder if you can now work out how that's different from racism. This is a pretty big clue, I feel like I'm giving it away, but... I don't know how much lower I can set the bar. I'm guessing @Cinga is still working on his definition with his team. It's a one sentence answer. Can't wait to see what he puts up for his final jeopardy!

Yeah I don't want that either. We would keep the same distance we have now. But instead of using your fingers, you'd use your mouth. In 2020 we have the technology to do "video calls"! Real Jetsons type stuff. You are one of the most talkative people here! Why haven't you signed up yet? Recite your posts on camera. Stand up for your beliefs like Devin Nunes.

It's gotta be hard to juxtapose current events when all you guys are all still living in the 60s, mentally... hell, you're probably still on the fence about integration.

Sign up for the video, Wacka.

Actually I have never confirmed or denied any of the guesses at the identity you've ascribed to me. I've just enjoyed watching you knock yourself out insisting on telling me my identity, as you insist you're not racist. You're definitely somewhere in the double digits of stating, definitively, who I am, and I like that you have changed almost every time. I have very much enjoyed this — I definitely saw you decide I was black, and then I saw when you decided I wasn't black. And then you got angry because you tricked yourself. And then somehow that's my fault. And still you can only guess whether you were right then, or you're right now, or maybe still you haven't got it. There's several races and types of people I could be, who would love to piss you off, that you have yet to guess. I've answered your question before multiple times anyway, and posted videos time and again of police initiating brutality on protestors. Do you disagree that people are begging for their lives from police? I am still unclear what about this is isn't clicking with you. Aside from the fact that you thought I was black, and now you don't, and you're mad about that. Which I just looooooove so much I cannot tell you, and the fact that you're a retired cop on top of it. You're perfect. Anyway you can see what I really look like by scheduling a video call with me, reading your posts / sharing your thoughts, AND getting paid for it. You gonna sign up? Do you have time this week to recite your words on camera over online video conference? I will pay you for your participation; your name/location is not necessary.

You're eligible for this discussion. It's not limited to Americans or Buffalonians. You've felt free to participate in the discussion with text. All I am asking is to do it with your face. No, not during football season. This week.

@Cingaand @Chef Jim since you're both addressing me on this, but neither answering the question. This is not a difficult prompt. And you've already spoken your thoughts on it. Let's make sure we're on the same page with our words. Define racism. Tell me what a racist is. Very very very simple. I can do it for you; I already have. It's not new information. But it does seem to be subjective, somehow .So, just go ahead and define this for us first. So in other words, you don't understand.

I get no satisfaction from saying "I told you so" and I'm extremely tired of it. Your first sentence tells me you don't understand the issue anyway.