WideNine

So they both recovered 1 fumble. IMO I think just focusing on lost fumbles is not the best way to process the data. Even if Allen managed to recover all his fumbles due to fortunate bounces it still points to issues with that simple QB/C exchange and usually means lost yards and a wasted down.

A lot of gray area when assessing accountability with so much conjecture, but I would not argue that Allen has not regressed under Dorsey's tenure as OC.

While we are looking at those great stats we should also factor in that he is currently the best at turning the ball over. And he was the best at that in 2022 with 19. It matters when talking about reading coverages...and getting the ball where it needs to be or just handling snaps.

Agree with the Cinci embarrassment of WR riches. But... Burrow also reads defenses pre-snap very well and is usually #1 or #2 in the league at getting the ball out of his hands quickly - less pressures and sacks. Burrow has also taken care of the ball better with only 6 INTs to Allen's 11 and only 2 fumbles to Allen's 4. You have to take care of the ball. Especially when your defense is not generating much in the way of their own turnovers. We have been on the wrong side of the turnover battle for most of this season and that is the most correlated statistic you hear for winning or losing games.

I cannot white-wash Allen's struggles even though I agree about the late defensive collapses. The INTs and fumbles and mishandled snaps that have directly lead to points for the other team or put the defense on a short field. Makes no sense trying to pin the blame on one area in an attempt to absolve another that is also playing inconsistently. If we point out the times when Allen delivers we should also point out the times when the defense did their job too only to have those efforts squandered. All phases could be playing better.

Tough assignment against a defense that is real with a short week. I suspect Brady will want to spread it out, but I am not sure how well that will work against a team like the Jets who can pressure with 4, and have a solid secondary and LBs. Up tempo may help our offense get something going but they have to lean into the run and not put it all on Allen, I dont know if he will be up for that challenge. Who knows where his head is at? Overall, accept that the Jets will get their stops on D. Limit the turnovers and penalties and stop hurting themselves and the team by giving up short fields and points.

Let the purge of the true culprits begin.

If there is a formula that got us close that is the one. McD overseeing operations as a HC. Still, this team has really struggled with the very things he preaches: fundamentals and discipline. He has the rest of the season to prove he has not lost the locker room. I am not expecting a miraculous turn-around, but even trending back in the right direction and maybe hiring a DC would salvage some good out of what I think is left of this season. And we will draft a bit higher. Hate to go that route, but been following this team for nearly 40 years and that is where I am when I am thinking about probabilities.

Ok... I can buy that, but 12 men on the field and poor decisions on defense? It's McD's operation and this firing bought him some time, but the sloppy in the margins was not just on Offense. I say that, and I am not a McD hater or anything. I just try to look at accountability objectively. His seat at OBD is getting warm too.

I don't know how reigning him in equates to underthrown passes to the boundary that are inside the receiver where they should never be thrown. That pass on those comeback routes has to have heat on it and be outside the receiver towards the boundary. It's not like Allen has not thrown those before. He and Davis made a living off those passes where Davis would keep his toes in bounds making those grabs. His deep ball accuracy has dropped considerably too. His throwing has regressed, could be injury-related or lack of practice and reps, but that has little to do with Allen running or not.

I would temper that enthusiasm. Outside of a very successful stint at LSU where one could argue he had an embarrassment of riches coaching Burrow and Chase, what has he done in the NFL? And this is the dude that has been in the QB room with Allen during this performance regression. Maybe more a joy and energy vampire than savior.

That and offensive preparation that shows in execution. This, more than anything else, may have been the more damning indictment of Dorsey's tenure. If you watch the clips of the plays he calls, on many of them there are options that are open. But Allen is not seeing or taking those so that speaks to Allen's preparation. Also, the offense as a whole seems dysfunctional. During games when the offense gets into a rhythm of things that are working, Dorsey seems to tinker with the formula for some unknown reason and often breaks whatever rhythm that have established and creating poor down and distance situations. There is a lot to unpack about what he did well and where he was struggling as an OC.

I think it is also the kind of INTs we are seeing this year that make folks wonder what is going on. I get a tipped ball, or everyone covered trying to thread it into a tight window, or 3rd and forever and he chucks it the length of the field and the INT amounts to a punt. But the INTs he is throwing deep in our own zone, to guys who are tightly covered with help underneath when there is no pressure on him and other guys are open are mind boggling. That is what concerns me, not just a number as that could mean a lot of different things and situations so I don't get too hung up on that.

He had a knack for getting the most out of defensive players and adjusting his schemes to fit the talent. I think if he was paired with a good OC and QB he could have done more, but he struggled identifying both of those during his tenure here. That, and he told Ralph to mind his own business and that was usually a career-limiting move

Yep. Last night was a perfect example of the frustration an OC may have with Allen. Will wait to see what Marino and others have to say, but that pick he threw deep in our end of the field looked way similar to the one he tossed to the Bengals with a similar defense (only 3 - rushers, little pressure, and some knowledgeable folks said they were just playing quarters where the defender underneath was able to close on that poor pass). That pick clearly shook Allen up and was in his head for a while... if he did throw the same kind of pick in the same kind of way in the same kind of situation, I could see why it would be hard to shake that off.

I am old enough to remember how folks got fed up with Wade Phillips and pushed for his exit and we went through 2 decades of terrible HCs. Not saying Wade did not have his blind spots - he did, but the org definitely took several steps backwards when he left. Sometimes it is about where someone fits best to do the best job they can do. I think McD is better suited as a HC that is more focused on managing the coaches and staff and ensuring QC for the team. As he has become more involved with the defense the overall quality of the team preparation and ability to execute in all 3 phases has trended downward. Before he is run out the door with pitchforks and torches the organization may be better served going back to a formula that was working. And that was having a DC who could get in the weeds of preparing that side of the ball, and OC that is a proven offensive coach that can manage that side of the team while McD manages the overall team quality and coordination. Dorsey was going to be held accountable for an offense that has taken steps backwards and that is a tough lesson for Allen who is the key piece of executing his offense. At the end of the day the performance of the players on offense really does affect the jobs and careers of coaches and coordinators.

Allen is broken because he can't hit passes right now. Guys are open and he is missing them. He is way off and of course Dorsey goes into empty sets and leans into that fail. Don't run the ball cause that was working.

They only rushed 3 and dropped everyone into zone knowing Allen forces those bad throws. Also, Allen does worse against zone this year in particular when defenders are facing him watching his eyes as he seems to really be telegraphing and forcing some throws. He may well get his buddy fired making those kinds of decisions with the ball from a clean pocket.

Good analysis and thanks. Still has got to be the weakest taunting penalty I have ever seen. Now when Allen t-bagged and spun the ball on top of the defender lying on the turf in the end zone after scoring a year or so ago, that one I understood.😁

Folks are still playing that tired mantra of coaches not "letting Allen run" or "coaching it out of him" and not really thinking about the injuries to Allen's throwing shoulder and how that may be changing how Allen is trying to approach games as a QB. The way Allen plays he is getting hurt. Whether he is in the pocket either failing to read the defense, or turning down quick throws on schedule that are open underneath looking for deeper shots, or just making up his mind where he is going to force the ball. That behavior leads to him holding the ball long enough for opposing rushers to get home and lay hits on him. If he takes off and tries to bowl over defenders, or when he scrambles extending plays outside of structure he can and does gets leveled and has injured his shoulder. Allen's throws, accuracy, and ability to practice with the offense has been hampered by injuries to his shoulder the past 2 years. Against the Giants he was scrambling, extending plays outside of structure (as he is very good at doing), but he got hit and landed on his shoulder reinjuring it. There is a brave recklessness to some of Allen's game that in some ways is admirable. When he got blasted last year and was mic'd up and told that guy that hit him, "I love that s**t". But this is the real world and the hits are starting to catch up to him. Allen injured his throwing shoulder and broke his collarbone in Wyoming too and he played much the same way he does now. You watch the clips below and you see the same kind of QB - Allen holding the ball, evading the rush, often rolling to his right, directing scramble drills and creating plays outside the structure of the play that is called - basically street ball. Successful QBs need to have that ability. Pure pocket throwing statues (unless they can dissect defenses and have one hell of a quick trigger with accuracy - Brady) do not last long, but Allen cannot live in that world of running around on every play the same way he did at Wyoming either. NFL defenses are too good, and they catch on, and now they make things harder with disguising deeper zone coverages, negating our scramble drills, and often spy him with speedy LBs and Strong Safeties that can close on him and get hits on him as soon as he bails on the pocket. Good QBs that can last in this league have to have both the ability to read defenses and get rid of the ball quickly (and accurately) to negate a good pass rush or blitz, and the ability to run and play outside of the structure when things break down or there is simply room to run. Allen does one of these things very well (playing outside the structure), but the other needs more work. He also needs to throw the ball away, slide, or run out of bounds if it means he avoids injury. The best ability is availability. There is a reason why veteran QBs and retired QBs are saying the same thing. They want to see a long career for Allen as we do, but I am not sure if that is going to happen if he keeps playing the same way and tearing up that shoulder. It is less about telling Allen not to run, and more telling Allen "if you ARE going to throw the ball, know where to go with it and get rid of it quickly so you are not getting slammed". There are other issues with the offensive game plans, preparation, and execution, but it is hard to put my finger on those things as coaches are either getting the most out of their players or they are not.

Whether Josh likes it or not, this is going to come home to Dorsey and his ability to get production out of Allen and this offense. At the end of the day, it is nice that Allen has a great rapport with Ken Dorsey, but if that is not translating into offensive production on game days then the team is going to have to think about changes at OC. Where I see the most difference with this offense compared to when Daboll was OC is execution and how many ways this offense seems less disciplined with execution. Sloppy mistakes that kill drives and uninspired efforts that land them short of the sticks. Even with Daboll, I thought defenses were homing in more on our tendencies, but Daboll was able to get more out of that slot position and jet motion with zone beaters and seemed to have Allen more dialed in particularly when we had a reliable veteran slot receiver in Beasley who knew how to read zones and find the soft spots in zones and at the sticks to keep the chains moving. This offense has been struggling since late last year and it has carried over for much of this year. Hard to defend whatever they are putting on display most games this season as being an example of the needle moving in the right direction.

I have figured that was one of the issues with how this team is currently built. High cap players that spend too much time on IR, and often too much runway needed to develop drafted and UFA players on rookie deals to be solid starters. I know the narrative was that it was a testament to the team's patience getting Epenesa to a place where he was more of an impact player on the defensive line, but the team also does not get better end of that deal with a learning curve consuming much of their rookie contract. We have plugged those roles where we lack impact players with older players that are solid when healthy, but more prone to injury and have had to burn a good amount of cap to do so. Some hard decisions are going to have to be made at some point on how to best retool. And that means letting players OBD has become attached to walk if they are not exceptional players that can serve as cornerstone pieces of the puzzle.

"Has it ever occured to you, Master Ninefingers, that a sword is different from other weapons? Axes and maces and so forth are lethal enough, but they hang on the belt like dumb brutes. But a sword...a sword has a voice. Sheathed it has little to say, to be sure, but you need only put your hand on the hilt and it begins to whisper in your enemy's ear. A gentle word. A word of caution. Do you hear it? Now, compare it to the sword half drawn. It speaks louder, does it not? It hisses a dire threat. It makes a deadly promise. Do you hear it? Now compare it to the sword full drawn. It shouts now, does it not? It screams defiance! It bellows a challenge! Do you hear it?" Joe Abercrombie, The Blade Itself (The First Law, #1) One of my current favorite authors and this quote came to mind as you were politely pointing the way to the exit door.

...and late in the 4th too. God forbid we get a comfy lead and NOT piss it away late in a game to create another nail-biter. And officiating...we have had some poor crews since London. The kind that get overly involved influencing the flow of the game with too many head-scratchers. Let them play... I hate a flag fest.

Until we actually beat a Joe Burrow led Bengals team, I will shelve the posturing. Burrow's perfomance the first few games and the last few games is night and day. Their offense features a mostly short passing game looking at avg depth of targets. Not sure if that has changed much from last season. An offense that stresses getting the ball out fast using receivers that have elite hands has been a matchup nightmare for Leslie Frazier zone schemes that employed a lot of cushion to allow the underneath throws. We will see if McD has a different approach because last year that Frazier defense just bled yards and conversions Not as concerned with the Bengals defense statistically, but they have forced some turnovers and Allen has given it away a few times... So there is that. They also find ways to limit points on the board and we have not been exactly lighting it up points-wise. We will see which Bills team comes to play.