corta765
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Posts posted by corta765
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...above the Dolphins....
It's a nice surprise for me...they usually tend to ignore the Bills....nice to see that someone there is paying attention.
I mean technically we all are 0-0 right now so dam right we are contending
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One of the best games ive ever been to. When we strip-sacked Rogers at the end, you couldn't help but think that we were playoff bound.
Agreed. Loudest I've heard the Ralph (28 so not a ton of great memories) and that strip sack the place went insane. I remember fans were celebrating for a good hour in the parking lot after before even considering leaving it was pretty special. I remember thinking it was the launch pad for the Bills to get back into the playoffs and matter a little...whoops haha
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I believe Belichick and the Patriots would go on to have prolonged success. Maybe not to the degree they have.... but pretty good. Belichick is an innovator and visionary.
Brady, IMO, would not have turned out the way he has. I think he has developed into who he is thanks to the organization. if he gets drafted by the Cardinals, I dont think we know who he is right now.
BB & the Pats I really believed would've won at least a SB. Bledsoe was still decent enough as a QB and BB's defense hit its peak during the 01-07 period where they were typically a Top 5 unit that shut down a ton of teams.
As for Brady yea who knows. I really believe there is virtually no QB who is not at least some product of his team and environment. Given how San Diego doesn't spend and isn't respected by players I wonder if Peyton would've won as much out there. Polian found him enough tools on offense and had a quality coach with Dungy.
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Lots of speculation and far to many variables for even 5% of this scenario to have actually taken place. I am having a hard time trying to come up with a decent reply that could actually contribute to this thread.
Now with that said, it is the offseason and there isnt much going on. This was actually a really fun topic that could generate some off the wall discussion that could go a million different ways. I definitely have to give you credit for doing the research and putting in alot of work on your thread. It was an entertaining read and I will check back later to see what else has been contributed to the discussion.
Thanks I honestly just did it for fun because there literally is zilch right now on the football side, it was never meant to be taken with much seriousness that this is even remotely close to what happens. Probably the only takeaway from this is that the Bills still would've stunk a bunch just because organizationally they were (still are? haha) so disjointed in the mid to late 2000s. Brady and the Pats probably did stop a playoff apperaence or two, but the team drafted so awful and lost so many impact players on defense during the 2000s because they didn't pay up.
It was interesting though looking back on some seasons to see what the rest of the AFC East was. I honestly forgot Miami went from 1-15 to 11-5 in 2008.
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Question: Does Brady develop into GOAT if not for being drafted by the Patriots?
I personally think he would regardless of where he went. His ability to read the field is virtually unmatched other then Peyton which is his greatest strength IMO. At the same point the first 3 Pats SB's were driven a lot by BB defense which is why even with Bledsoe who they signed to a 100 million extension I think you see some good seasons and still a really tough NE team.
We've all wasted a lot of words here but this is definitely on a different level
Eh I was bored at lunch seemed like fun.
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Disclaimer: This is for fun and I did my best to consider a million different factors with this. I did my best researching the 2000 draft on who would've wanted to take a flyer on Brady, how a Bills win over NE may or may not have altered their season, what the AFC may have looked like, and how Brady himself may have done outside of the division.
2000 NFL Draft:
As we all know Brady famously was a sixth round pick. The last QB taken before Brady was Spergeon Wynn by Cleveland (of course) 16 picks earlier. For the purpose of this exercise though we will only consider teams after the Patriots pick at 199 as places he could end up going. The remaining picks in the 6th round went as followed:
6* 200 New Orleans Saints Sherrod Gideon WR Southern Mississippi C-USA 6* 201 New England Patriots David Nugent DE Purdue Big Ten 6* 202 Washington Redskins Todd Husak QB Stanford Pac-10 6* 203 San Diego Chargers Damen Wheeler CB Colorado Big 12 6* 204 Pittsburgh Steelers Jason Gavadza TE Kent State MAC 6* 205 San Diego Chargers JaJuan Seider QB Florida A&M MEAC 6* 206 Cleveland Browns Brad Bedell OT Colorado Big 12
Two QB's are picked after him and both were QB needy teams with the Redskins starting that season Brad Johnson with Jeff George at backup and San Diego dealing with Ryan Leafs implosion. Cleveland had already picked a QB so they would be out and New Orleans had youngster Aaron Brooks at the time who would lead them to the division crown in 2000 leaving Pittsburgh as the only other location. Pittsburgh would've been interesting because they had Kordell Stewart who still had a lot of intrigue but not much after him.
In my opinion he doesn't make it to Pittsburgh where with Bill Cowher Brady could've created a potential dynasty again for the Steelers. Instead he does end up going to the Redskins and into the NFC.
2000 NFL Season
Nothing would really change here for the Buffalo Bills or Brady because Brady didn't play.The Bills continue their QB controversy and settle on Rob Johnson as their guy over Flutie. Brady may get in for part of the game in 2000 because the Redskins collapse from a 7-4 start to finish 8-8 and all three Redskin QBs including Husak saw action.
AFC East Title: Miami Dolphins
2001 NFL Season
The Bills have an abysmal first season just as they did in 2001 with Greg Williams missing the playoffs at 3-13. The Patriots flounder at 7-9 when rookie QB Sage Rosenfels is thrown into action (Rosenfels was selected by WSH in the 4th rnd by WSH in 2001, NE picks him in the 4th instead) after Drew Bledsoe goes down for a portion of the season. The Redskins meanwhile see 2nd year QB Tom Brady lead them to an unexpected 11-5 division title. They lose though in Chicago due to a controversial incompletion by Bears QB Jim Miller in a heavy snow storm which setups a GW kick for the Bears. The Rams win their second SB in 3 years over Pittsburgh
AFC East Title: Miami Dolphins
2002 NFL Season
The Bills in need of a QB badly and wanting to make a splash sign free agent QB Jake Plummer who had some success with the Arizona Cardinals. The Bills split their games with the Patriots beating the Pats at home and win their first division crown since 1995 with a 10-6 record (They beat the Plummer-less Broncos in the game they lost in 2002). The Bills win their first playoff game since 1995 at home against the Colts in a tight 21-13 affair before losing to the Raiders. The Patriots squeeze out a Wildcard birth with Bledsoe but lose in the Wildcard to Pittsburgh. Brady and the Skins lose to the 49ers out in San Fran. Bucs win the SB.
AFC East Title: Buffalo Bills
2003 NFL Season
Buffalo slips to 7-9 as they split their games with the Patriots, but fail to improve on the previous season as the offense lacks the same production with Peerless Price gone. The Patriots on the other hand dominate the division at 13-3 with a shutdown defense and solid offense to win their first Super Bowl over the St Louis Rams and Kurt Warner.
AFC East Title: New England Patriots
2004 NFL Season
The Buffalo Bills win the division title at 11-5 over the Patriots who see a decline in Bledsoe's production and just make it in the playoffs with each team splitting a game in the head to head. Buffalo loses at home to a Peyton Manning led offense that steamrolls its way to Mannings first Super Bowl.
AFC East Title: Buffalo Bills
2005 NFL Season
The Buffalo Bills fail to make the playoffs when they lose core defensive pieces finishing 6-10. They are swept by the New England Patriots who see a decent season by Drew Bledsoe who win a weak AFC at 10-6. The Steelers win the SB, head coach Greg Williams is fired after the season due to organizational differences and the defenses failure to integrate younger pieces.
AFC East Title: New England Patriots
2006 NFL Season
The Buffalo Bills sneak into the playoffs at 9-7 with new head coach Dick Jauron who improves the Bills defense enough to get back in the playoffs where they lose to the division champion New York Jets. The Bills sweep the Patriots who fall down 7-9 due to Bledsoe's dwindling QB skills despite a strong defense, putting in rookie Jay Cutler at the end of the year. The San Diego Chargers break the drought and end up winning the Super Bowl after defeating Peyton Manning's Colts in a thrilling AFC Title game.
AFC East Title: NY Jets
2007 NFL Season
The Buffalo Bills miss the playoffs at 9-7 with Jake Plummer showing his age and is replaced late in the season by Trent Edwards. The Bills can only split with the rising Patriots who take the division at 11-5. The Superbowl is an upset by Eli Mannings Giants over the defending champion Chargers.
AFC East Title: New England Patriots
2008 NFL Season
The Bills finish a disappointing 8-8 after a quick start out of the gate and split the season series against the Patriots. The Patriots finish at 9-7 out of the playoffs behind the Miami Dolphins wildcat attack at 11-5. The Super Bowl sees a Washington Redskin Brady led squad defeat the Steelers in an all time classic.
AFC East Title Miami Dolphins
2009 NFL Season
The Bills finish at 7-9 as recent drafts have limited talent to the roster and hoped QB of the future Trent Edwards doesn't develop any further. The Bills win the opening night game on Monday Night to split the series against the Patriots again. Head Coach Dick Jauron is shown the door at the end of the year after failing to get the team to playoff for 3 straight years. The New York Jets win the division crown with the Patriots sneaking in as a wild card team and going to the Super Bowl where they lose to New Orleans.
AFC East Title: NY Jets
2010 NFL Season
With new head coach Chan Gailey they Bills crater at 4-12 as they get swept also in the season series against the Patriots. The AFC East crown is taken again by the Jets who just beat out the Patriots late in the season. The Super Bowl still ends with GB beating Pitt. The Packers wild card run starts with an upset of the Brady led Redskins who lead the NFL in scoring.
AFC East Title: NY Jets
2011 NFL Season
With a draft that provides some needed talent back to the roster the Bills go 7-9 with a late season win in New England for the season sweep. The AFC East is won at 9-7 by the New York Jets despite mercurial play at QB. Tom Brady's Washington Redskins defeat the Baltimore Ravens in the title game for his second Super Bowl victory.
AFC East Title: NY Jets
2012 NFL Season
The Bills break a six year playoff drought by finishing 10-6 tied and winning the division crown over the Patriots who make it in as a wildcard team as both teams split the matchup against each other. The Bills win their first playoff game since 2004 at home in the wildcard against the Patriots. The Bills go on to lose in Denver 28-17 against the Manning led Broncos. The Ravens avenge their previous Super Bowl loss to the Redskins and Brady to win their second title.
AFC East Title: Buffalo Bills
2013 NFL Season
The Bills regress from the previous season at 7-9 splitting the season series with New England. Ryan Fitzpatricks flaws show against a harder schedule of teams despite an improved defense.The Bills enter the offseason knowing they need to draft a QB at some point and cut Fitzpatrick. The AFC East is taken by the New England Patriots. The Super Bowl sees Peyton's Broncos fall to the Seahawks.
AFC East Title: New England Patriots
2014 NFL Season
The Bills draft Teddy Bridgewater in the 1st round who leads the Bills to a 11-5 division title. The Bills split again with the Patriots who also make the post season but lose on a late Jay Cutler INT in the wildcard. The Bills make it the AFC title game against the Colts thanks to their #1 defense. Andrew Luck and Indy defeat Buffalo as they head to the Super Bowl. They lose to the Seahawks on a last second running TD from the 2 yard line by former Bills RB Marshawn Lynch.
AFC East Title: Buffalo Bills
2015 NFL Season
A highly competitive AFC see the Bills make the playoffs as a wildcard as the Jets take the AFC East Title. A favorable schedule and strong offense help the Bills to a 10-6 record. The Bills sweep the Patriots in their two matchups as Cutler gets injured and the Patriots have to play rookie Jimmy Garrapollo who is steady in his first season. The Bills lose their Wildcard matchup against Cincinnati thanks to a miss field goal at the end. Denver defeats Carolina in Peytons final game to win the Superbowl.
AFC East Title: New York Jets
2016 NFL Season
The Bills hamstrung by cap space see their defense regress and the team fall to a disappointing 7-9 record that gets Chan Gailey fired. Bridgewater lacks help at WR as he and Lesean McCoy have to carry too much of the load on offense resulting in injuries that cost each 2 games on the season. The Bills also are swept by a reloaded New England team with Garrapollo leading a dynamic passing attack and a very strong defense. The Patriots fall in the Superbowl against Tom Brady's Washington Redskins who win a third title with him as QB with TD drive late.
AFC East Title: New England Patriots
Final Numbers:
6 Playoff Appereances
4 Division Crowns
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I'm setting it at 6. Make your call.
Against my better judgement I'm saying 7. I wanted to say 5 but I picked 7 for a few reasons:
1. Schedule always appears tougher then it is and even though this years looks pretty wretched I can still see them winning a few we dont expect.
2. Shady. McCoy single handily wins us 3-4 games a year because the dude is a horse and o line is very good run blocking.
3. Division record. They went 1-5 last year when they shoulda been 3-3. Honestly it really shouldnt be hard to sweep the jets and split Miami. So that is two more wins then last year which I'm sure we balance out with losses that were this year wins.
4. Coaching. This is the least talented Bills team since probably 2012 (as of now) yet I think McDerm probably will be at least an improvement in game mgmt on Rex. So that helps a little.
So yea I guess 7, wouldn't be surprised with 5, and would be stunned with anymore then 8. So yea same old same old
I'm going slightly over...I see our usual 8-8 this year...the coaching improves, but the schedule gets tougher.....next year is when we see finally a 10 win season IMO.....I have to give McD a year to put the pieces in line....
Iron Maiden that you from BBMB? And I'm impressed with the optimism usually I could depend on you for reality
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Here's a hypothetical scenario.
We can only draft 1 of these top prospects in the 1st round that we need. Pick 1 out of the 10 prospects and explain WHY you chose your choice over the others.
Considering we just resigned TT, I've ignored the option of drafting a QB in the first round.
Also, consider trading down from 10th overall to get one of these players, what would we get in return?
1. Marshon Lattimore - CB
2. Malik Hooker - FS
3. Mike Williams - WR
4. Jamal Adams - SS
5. OJ Howard - TE
6. Malik McDowell - DL
7. Corey Davis - WR
8. Cam Robinson - OT
9. Reuben Foster - ILB
10. Jonathan Allen - DL
Personally I would choose Corey Davis. Reason why is because he has more "juice" than M.Williams and would be a benefit to the offense to create a dual threat at the WR position. Even though there are a lot of great options, I believe we need to go WR at first round.
Based off current needs probably Corey Davis and if he is gone then Reuben Foster. CB & SAF there is enough depth in draft to get in 2nd/3rd rnd
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I don't think many GM's or coaches in the NFL would trade Stephon Gilmore and Aaron Williams for Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer.
Lately I've been pretty pessimistic on the Bills, however the secondary I actually am more optimistic on this year for 2 reasons.
1. Consistency. Last year the moment Aaron Williams went down the whole secondary became a massive tire fire because they could be beat regularly deep. He really was instrumental in keeping things going well. Darby seemed to be kinda wrecked by the coaching staff's communication issues so I would be willing to give him a bit of a shot that his play was partially hurt just by coaching. Additionally while I thought Gilmore is a good player he was a tire fire himself the first half of last year and even when he improved he had zero safety help the back half of the year. Last year the secondary just wasn't dependable when you needed it and the lack of consistency killed the Bills.
2. Scheme. McDerms scheme puts the emphasis on the front 7 and less on the back end. It also is a scheme that plays to his players strengths and is far less confusing compared to Rex/Robs which players were ripping on its confusion regularly.
I think the team still needs to draft another SAF/CB in rnd 1 or 2 and sign a guy like Alteneer Verner. But while this years secondary may not have the sexy names like A Williams or Gilmore, I think it will be a bit more dependable and better against big plays then last year. My prediction is the pass defense ends up still being in the top half of the league.
What I am down big time on is our LBs with Zach Brown likely gone. Ragland is unknown so I won't assume him to be great and Preston Brown has stunk the last 2 years and I am not convinced he can get back to his play as a rookie even back in a 4-3 defense.
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This was a sad morning as a bills fan
Today, the Bills lost 3 of my favorite players from the drought
Stephon Gilmore, Bob Woods and Aaron Williams
Aaron God Bless man and I hope you stay in good health for the rest of your life, just hang um up and call it quits man, you earned it
Stephon Gilmore who has been a scapegoat of the Bills for years.. all he did was practice everyday, keep his mouth shut, and play... Was he the best? No... But we are gonna miss his talents and it's a double whammy he's in new england
And Bob Woods. The consummate professional.. His crafty route running, sure hands and physical blocking as been an intregal part of our team for years.. he never asked for the ball, or complained he didn't get it.. he just busted his ass for years and I might miss him the most
I hope we have a plan in place because we are gonna miss these guy's, and so am I
Good luck guys... Besides Gilmore... I can't even wish him luck in NE
I feel a bit similar. Gilmore I liked but the $$ he wanted didn't justify keeping hm. Woods though I wish they would've extended last year, we need WRs so bad and he was dependable for catches and blocking. A Williams kills me because I met him a few times here in Rochester at training camp and the Bills made the right move extending him and not keeping Byrd. So sad the injuries he got that have basically ended his career, before that he was a Top 10 Safety.
Also would add its frustrating that 3 guys we did draft well all walk or are cut. Would've liked even one to have stayed.
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I think every NFL team is supposed to have exactly ONE Thursday night game, no?
Also, the Patriots* play the Falcons at home this coming season, so I imagine that will be the matchup for Week 1, right?
Usually, yes. But there were a handful on non-divisional games this past season (NE*-HOU, MIA-CIN, DAL-MIN, etc.)
That would be intense - and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a Monday-nighter. I just want it to be the same weekend as a Virginia Tech home game so I can double up while I'm down there
I checked and actually the SB champs typically have played twice a year. Thursday night opener and then another TNF game. Last yr Denver played CAR opener and then at San Diego. In 2015 Pats opened at home vs Steelers and then played at home against the Dolphins later on.
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Please close this thread mods
Second that this thread really doesn't serve much purpose other then just hot takes.
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I must be the only one on earth that doesn't think that Klein was a good player
He looked very average to me and I never like taking a guy from a previous scheme/team and expecting he will be just as good. Lots of factors play in. Would rather they draft another LB or look at some other FAs
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i really like the cincy guess i see that happening as well. However i wouldnt be shocked to see us play the dolphins on a thursday night. my guess is fins or bengals
I think they open at Miami and the Bills played all but one TNF on road so at home against Miami on Thursday seems very reasonable.
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I may be wrong but IIRC Thursday Night games (other than the opening game) are usually inter division matchups. Buff Jets, Buff, Miami.
FTR I don't like the TNF. Too hyped up to sleep restfully and get up at 6 AM for work
Typically they are interdivision, but you get interconference like the Pats-Texans last year or Bills-Browns in 2013. It really depends on what the NFL wants. Additionally the opening night game and three Thanksgiving games give a little more wiggle room matchup wise.
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QB-Watson (1st round) but we also sign Hoyer just before the draft, it makes us look like we have no interest in drafting a QB.
WR-Aiken and Torey Smith, re-sign Hunter and Tate
LB-re-sign Brown, draft LSU's Duke Riley (undersized LB falls to 3rd round, fewer 4-3 defenses)
starting- Riley-Brown-Ragland
CB-Teez Tabor his 40 time wasn't good and he falls into the 2nd round, very deep cornerback class hurts too
Safety-the unpopular Byrd and the popular Jefferson.
Def could see this scenario
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no. Arrogance is the heir of being better than everyone. I am not under that inpression by any means. I don't think or try to be better than y'all. I just simply am already. I can't help it.
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful, sarmtt, funny, charming, sexy, studly, confident, humble, passionate, special, American, ambidextrous, near sided, going bald, gaining weight, blue eyed, and smell good
Hold on a second... the blue eyes are all me bud you can take the rest of what you listed.
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List who you think will be the starting QB (realistic please not Brady or Rodgers), WR behind Sammy, LB, CB, & SAF. Whether it is internal, UFA, or draft lets see how everyone would fill the holes.
Me:
QB: Siemian (Tyrod released, Romo goes to DEN, and we trade for Siemian who beats out Cardale)
WR: Kenny Britt signed. (Woods goes and Kenny is brought in for less money)
LB: Zach Brown is retained.
CB: Alterneer Verner signed. (Takes the #2 CB spot with Seymour then at NCB)
SAF: Tony Jefferson signed.
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If bills and Carolina are Monday night I'm gonna !@#$ Charlotte up.
I've wondered if that game with CAR or the Bills in LA against Lynn would be able to get a monday night game.
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I can't understand why some people don't like Thursday nite football.
I love it, and wish it would replace Monday night. By Monday everyone is footballed out, but Thursday is at the end of the work week and the nation is ready to watch a game.
If it's the Bills it's a great occasion and fun party, if it's not the Bills, it's a team I wouldn't be watching otherwise, so it's fun to see some off market teams play on prime time.
The teams don't like it because of the short week but they get paid enough to suck it up and get through it. Long live TNF baby!
I agree with this. Even though some Thursday games are dogs, typically its an early start to the weekend and probably 75% of the time I meet people at a bar or with food at home to watch the games. I love when the Bills play because we are the only game the whole day so its fun with the attention. I do understand the issues with players being tired and feel the NFL probably should look at having the two teams playing on Thursday play also on the previous Saturday so they can get an extra day rest, plus it could be an extra primetime affair.
I think it ends up being New England actually. Only divisional opponent the Bills have not played on Thursday night. I believe we have played both the Jets and Dolphins twice each. Overdue for the Pats on Thursday.
The only reason I don't see the Patriots and Bills is if the Patriots have to play a second TNF game beside the opener, it is far more likely they play someone like the Jets which would be higher ratings with NY/Boston then Buffalo. The last 2 years the NFL had an easy reason to do Bills v Jets with Rex. Now that is gone and I think they revert back to NY/Boston ratings instead and we get at Cincy or Miami. But def could see the Pats happening due to the Bills not yet playing them on Thursday like you said.
Personally I'd have zero desire playing NE on TNF and getting throttled there or at home.
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I am someone who enjoys thinking about the upcoming seasons schedule and what the Bills may or may not get in terms of primetime games. Typically the NFL guarantees each team a Thursday night game, but recently the NFL did say they may do away with making every team play. Personally I do believe Buffalo will get a TNF game because typically the really bad games on TNF are teams like the Titans/Jags or Bucs vs Anyone. Plus with the NFL color rush initiative I would be surprised to see a full move away from TNF for every team.
Typically the NFL emphasizes divisional games for the TNF game with the occasional same conference opponent like the Bills Browns a few years back. Out of conference games are almost a guaranteed no minus opening night for TNF which the Patriots probably will host the Falcons.
Here is how I would rate who the Bills opponent probably is:
Not a chance: Chargers, Raiders and all NFC opponents. No way they force a West Coast team east or Bills west on that short of travel, NFC matchups all guaranteed in by networks for weekend.
Doubtful: Denver, Tennessee, & New England. Denver would be favored ratings wise to play TNF against its own division. The Titans are never watched when they play in division, why would they be watched out of it. The Patriots technically get there TNF matchup out of the way week 1 and if there has to be a second game they would play the Jets or Phins before the Bills get that spot. But never say never.
Not As Surprising As You Think: Kansas City. The Bills would have to travel out west for this one, but the time difference isn't that great, color wise there would be a lot of uniform options (Bills full blue vs KC full red), and given the history between the two franchises as AFL members it wouldn't be a massive shock compared to the three before this.
Favorites: Cincy, New York, & Miami. Cincy is a favorite because if the Patriots do not play another TNF game the Jets and Phins are are most likely facing each other and Buffalo needs a team to play then. Buffalo traveled to Cleveland in 2013 and Cincy hosted Houston in 2015 on TNF so both teams have played out of division on Thursday. Additionally the Bills did just host the Jets in 2016 and typically the NFL does try to rotate cities that host. The Jets would be just a continuation of the previous two years with NY probably hosting due to Buffalo getting the previous season. Miami is the one matchup where the Bills possibly could host at home again on TNF due to being on the road the last time these two played in 2014.
My pick? Bills will play next season on Thursday night and they will travel on the road to Cincy with the Bengals in their black unis and Bills in red.
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I was on BBMB probably the day before its destruction. While at points the topics got nauseating with the same stuff, I will miss it especially once we got to training camp on. Plus after bad losses the place was a flaming hilarious wasteland. Look forward to being here though in a new home.
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1. corta765
2. 2015-Until Destruction of BBMB
3. Rochester
4. 13
5. Punting on 4th and 1 from the 35 or 40, never seeing the playoffs again
6. Courtney Cox late 90s friends in a bikini ...or less
7. I was so for Fitz but he Fitz'd in the end
8. No clue
9. mrags sounds like a code name so I say no
10. Complete the following sentence: "Ralph is " team founder and highly respected former football owner
NFL Network has us as a AFCE contender
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Schedule is always hard to tell what it really is. We have had years we expected a tough schedule and it was easy and vise versa. I remember in 2015 thinking the Eagles and Skins would be cake walk games ..and both beat us with the Skins winning the division.
The QBs on the schedule do concern me and the defense not rebounding last year makes it hard to believe that is a strength of the team. That said you really don't know much about the schedule until halfway through the year if at all..