FireChan

Bottom line up front. I exclude Fitzpatrick and Orton, because Fitzpatrick wasn't technically the starter, he WAS the starter; it also seems clear Orton was signed with the intention of starting him as soon as he got some grasp on the playbook and Manuel stumbled. Those are fair arguments to make. However, both Orton and Fitzpatrick were back-ups the season before. I would contend that both of them are high-end back up players and are germane to this discussion. That leaves us with 7 names. There are 32 teams in the league. Manuel is on one of those teams. That means there are at least 24 teams where either you don't think the backup is better than Manuel, or we don't have enough info to know. I would argue that simple fact of math alone would say that EJ has value as a QB, at least as a backup. Those are merely the players the actually saw starting time. Only the individual teams' FOs knows if guys like Brock Osweiler are serviceable back-ups. But you have muddied my point. I'm not arguing that EJ has zero value as a back-up or even that he cannot become a good back-up, only that he may not even be there yet as a quality back-up, looking at how some of the other back-ups have performed. Suffice it to say, if I had the choice of any of those guys on my list over EJ as my back-up QB, I'd take them. And even some of those who were not on my list, like Matt Moore. IMO, EJ is not on this team because of what he has been doing, but what he could be doing if he grew to realize his potential. Now as to the actual facts, here's a tabulation of how these QB have historically performed over their career. Let's just look at numbers, because frankly I think arguments can be made against total QBR and rating. Austin Davis intrigues me - as a UDFA, he came in and did very well, but also he's got the most limited sample size and it's not uncommon for a QB to "regress" as opponents get more film on him. For the rest...do you really want to argue that Glennon's 6.5 YPA is superior to Manuel's 6.4 YPA, or that his 58.8% completions are superior to Manuel's 58.6%? Or that Whitehurst's 55.6% completions and 6.3 YPA are clearly superior? For that matter, while I think both Davis and Cousins had superior YPA, I'm not sure that statistically, 6.4 and 6.7 YPA are really different numbers - there are so many variables that go into them aside from the QB's level of skill. The same argument against Austin Davis could be made against EJ and 2014 was simply the start of his regression. I don't think going by careers paints the whole story. Charlie Whitehurst is 7 years removed from when he started, how much of his game is the same as his first year or two? Glennon has shown to have gotten better since last year, while EJ has gotten worse. I tend to favor the most recent years as more relevant than entire careers. I would also disagree with the insignificance of the YPA stat. The difference in .1 of the YPA stat could be one more 80 yard TD pass a season. I will show you an example using EJ's numbers as a baseline. He has 14 games, so it will be a little bit of an overestimation, but I think you'll agree it's close enough. He has 437 career attempts for 2,810 yards for 6.43 YPA. If we add 1 attempt for 80 yards, he gets 438 attempts for 2890 yards, which results in a 6.598 YPA. That's almost a .2 increase for one more big play. How many years do we see, "we could've made the playoffs with 1 or 2 more plays?" Almost every year. I wouldn't discount it as insignificant, an improvement is an improvement and the more big plays, the better.

I understand that. I'm just saying, just because you started some games and looked okay at times doesn't mean you're going to be a serviceable back-up. Not all busts become serviceable back-ups.

I did, later in the thread I clarified that I meant "why."

If you're not going to read the thread, why would you try to argue? Again, do you think that players who exercise their player option call all their teammates beforehand?

No doubt. I just find it hilarious that even with the unprecedented success the Pats have had (outside of this incident), this writer manages to be negative all the time.

That's Boston's Jerry Sullivan on steroids. Always negative, always bashing the team.

Certainly. Drew Stanton http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/10487/drew-stanton Mark Sanchez http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/12482/mark-sanchez Colt McCoy http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13199/colt-mccoy Kirk Cousins http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14880/kirk-cousins Austin Davis http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15187/austin-davis Mike Glennon http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15837/mike-glennon Ryan Fitzpatrick (he was technically the starter, but he's a career back-up) http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8664/ryan-fitzpatrick Charlie Whitehurst http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/9667/charlie-whitehurst Kyle Orton http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8520/kyle-orton This is just about every second or third stringer who saw at least 2 games in the NFL in 2014. Now, you can look at one or two of these guys and see that EJ has one less fumble, but they almost all beat him in passer rating (Stanton is the only exception), and I believe that they all beat him in Total QBR (not that I'm a firm believer in that stat). And they all beat him in YPA, perhaps the single best indicator of QB success.

Splitting hairs. He was an HC candidate who was an HC 5 minutes before. It's okay to say, "I hate Marrone, and AW shouldn't have said that."

Really?

There are many backups in the NFL this season who had better numbers than EJ. He may develop into a serviceable back-up, but he may not be there.

Would he? As more and more tape of him gets out, I don't know.

I assure you, Fred has very little insight on the inner workings of the Bills front office, which was cited as the reason Marrone left. Fred also didn't comment on him leaving, only "how," he did it. AW was the one who should have not said anything. I'm not taking shots at anyone. I love Fred and I like AW, but that doesn't mean they are infallible. Even if you hate Marrone, publicly bashing a HC is a bad look. You get that, right?

More safety depth.

They were?

See, I don't get this. This romanticizing. Your coach is apples to apples with your wife? And no. I wouldn't go out and call my wife a cheating tramp before I knew the reason why she left. Maybe the gardener is trying to murder us and she's leading him away to save me. I'd look pretty stupid, huh?

Are we talking about Fred or somebody else? If it's Fred, I am totally on board with him complaining about the text. That's fine, respect it, whatever. If it's Aaron Williams, I am not on board. AW saying he, "lost all respect," IMO, is ridiculous. What the heck does Aaron know about why Marrone left, just seconds after it's announced by the organization? Oh, nothing.

False dichotomy. A professional football player shouldn't comment about how a man, who coached him for 2 seasons, left because he doesn't know anything about it. Fred has the most credibility out of any Bill, I'll give you that.

But you think he should?

I don't think specifically he said anything too egregious. I was talking more in generalities, and then someone brought up that Fred has "the right" to say anything about anyone. I didn't really have a huge problem with what he said about Dougie. Not necessarily. They should keep their mouths shut about things they know nothing about. No one bothers to correct your crazy uncle at dinner but if he had a following of 500k people, he better be very careful with what he says and how he says it. It's an inherent responsibility of having a large voice.

It could be. Yet, we don't have the media to plaster our quotes all over the internet, nor the clout of a professional athlete.

Completely agree, but behind closed doors, we'll never know how bad it was in the FO. I could see myself in Doug's shoes for this entire saga, except for the mass text. He has every right, but that doesn't mean he should. What does Fred know about this situation? What does he know about the inner workings of the FO? More importantly, does he even have any applicable experience? Fred can go out and say ISIS is full of good guys. It doesn't mean he should, and it doesn't mean he's right. You have a right to say anything. I respect folks who don't pretend that the buck stops with them in terms of ethics and morality, especially in a conflicted business decision without all of the pertinent information. IMO, no. Not in this situation. Nothing good usually comes from players talking.

So, because he's a tough player who tries hard at his job, he's the arbitrator of right and wrong? I'm surprised we aren't on the same page on this. You wouldn't leave you company for a reasonable chance of doubling your salary, especially if you could barely get along with your superiors and colleagues? It's extra because it would be added to a potential 2015 HC job. It didn't work out that way, but it'd be a no-brainer if I was in his shoes. Again, I don't see how Fred has any experience in any situation like this. When did he have opportunities to make much more money elsewhere?

While I love Fred, I'm not sure if I necessarily agree. He's a great guy and loves Buffalo. No question. But I don't know if he ever turned down an extra $4 million to stay here.

That's what I meant.

He didn't know that. At the time, it was best for Marrone to opt out for pure financial reasons. Love him saying that players should shut up. He's on point.