Abortion doctor killed...

[VABills]

Join us at Frenchy's next time. I think you're eligible for the Mouth-Breathers discount!

Frenchy's. Eryn eats at a place called Frenchy's? Now I see what's wrong with that boy. Probably eat quiche and drinks white wine in a box too.

[buckeyemike]

I thought a reasoned and impassioned debate could be had. But I forgot that this is a message board. Guess I was too optimistic.

 

Now that I'm 40, I'll have to remember to be more cynical.

[erynthered]

Frenchy's. Eryn eats at a place called Frenchy's? Now I see what's wrong with that boy. Probably eat quiche and drinks white wine in a box too.

 

 

Whoooa!! Passareno there midget breath!! Never touch the stuff. Maybe its Tennyboy's flavoflave, not mine.

[Peevo]

Its a very sad story about the Tiller murder.

 

Whats so unfortunate about this argument, is as soon someone considerably religious brings up their dogma into the conversation, it becomes an unwinable argument. "I accept Christ and am going to heaven, regardless of how I treat people or consider my actions in the world, everyone that doesn't, too bad." That, quite frankly, is why a lot of people have a very big issue with the modern Christian in the world.

 

Bottom line, women are going to seek abortions if they are legal or not. Girls will continue to DIE because of dirty abortions, and those in support of life would then say, that an abortion should be legal, right? Isn't any life precious, regardless of its stages? Furthermore, how far does this go? Is it right for us to restrict stem cell research to save potentially THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of real, actually born, living people suffering from untold terrible terminal diseases, even at the cost of embryos that don't get fertilized, and ultimately, destroyed anyway? This is also completely constructed by the religious right to prove a point, because studies are finding that umbilical cord stem cells are just as effective and that doesn't require an abortion to harvest the cells.

 

What basically the religious right wants is a total Catch-22. ABSOLUTELY NO contraceptives of any kind, because of course, that would restrict "life." Forget the amount of disease that could spread, that potentially destroy life, we need to protect this baby from not being conceived. And then when an unwanted pregnancy occurs because birth control, condoms and other safe sex methods are all restricted, girls are forced to raise a child they are ill equipped to raise, and drain the societal welfare system even more. That goes back to the tax payer dollar, that, of course, conservatives raive that we can never raise, or spend, right?

 

Those against responsible, reasonable birth control are just using sexual contact as nothing more than a means of procreation and ownership of a woman's body as that of a man's ultimate possession. Woman have fought for a generation to escape this stupidity. It's very sad that "Octomom" and the "Jon and Kate" are terrible examples of fertilization and medical science used to an extreme means. But seriously, these right to life people need to chill out. 7 billion people live on this planet, is there REALLY room for another billion more?

[woolley]

This case will go to trial and i am sure the defense will be insanity. The guy will probably say that God spoke to him and told him to do this, blah blah blah. He will be labeled a nut job due to his religious beliefs. That is very ironic if you ask me.

 

I think your predictions are poorly formed, and will certainly not come to pass.

 

I also question your understanding of irony, but whatever.

[woolley]

I have a friend who is a rape victim and she seethes anytime somebody tells her she should have had the baby. Of course the anti-abortionists wont do it to her face because if they sat and listened to her story they wouldn't be able to fault her morally without looking like a complete immoral ass.

 

Personally, I think it's too late to tell someone who's had an abortion what they should have done.

 

The more important issue, I think, is that your friend does not believe she had her child murdered, correct?

 

Are there any victims of rape out there who've given birth, later to regret to *not* having an abortion? Probably, but they most likely wouldn't talk about it I'm thinking.

 

Not if you look at world history. Most of the wars in history were based on religious differences.

 

I absolutely disagree. Most wars in history were about expansion, not religion.

 

The point is that why do anti-abortionist care more about less cells in your fingernail than about living "out of luck" kids?

 

You're making a very sweeping statement here.

 

Most of us haven't given money to starving people in Botswana. In fact, I'm pretty sure you're more concerned with what you're going to wear to work today than starving people in Botswana. It's not because we don't care for them, it's just the way things are, you can't worry about every issue under the sun, not enough time/money to do that.

 

The anti-slavery argument isn't a good analogy for this. In order to free a slave they would have to go to the south with an army. Adopting a child doesn't require any killing and in fact enhances lives.

 

Let me add, there aren't a surplus of unadopted babies in this country. The foster-care thing is a major issue.

 

I don't think women get abortions for the supposed fact that there are legions of unadopted babies.

[woolley]

The most sacred human right is the right of personal autonomy, and the right to control one's body is paramount. Suppose you woke up hooked to a person in a hospital with fluids going from you to him. A doctor comes in and says if we disconnect you this person will die. This will last for nine months. Do you have a right to say "no I refuse to have this person here for nine months and to have my life so restricted" I think you do, although it would be a very nice thing for you to stay hooked up. I think that is where the state has its limits. Now Blackmuns "trimester" argument in Roe v. Wade does go a long way to give the state legitimate interests in certain stages of pregnancy.

 

Is the choice of an abortion a bad one? Yes, in my opinion. However I think the person carrying the fetus has the right to make the choice.

 

Your hypothetical is so outrageously outrageous that your post has no impact on me whatsoever, besides noting its outrageous outrageousness.

[woolley]

Not if you look at world history. Most of the wars in history were based on religious differences.

 

Another thing about this...

 

Religion leads to war, ergo, religion is bad.

 

As previously stated, territorial expansion and border disputes are easily the top reasons behind the majority of wars in the history of the world.

 

Does it follow that property possession leads to war, ergo, property possession is bad?

[woolley]

Why?

 

To prevent anarchy?

[woolley]

That's not a religious belief. That's a universal one. I can't think of a reason why the government has to ever enforce a religious belief. They can enforce the ability of us to worship but shouldn't enforce our religious beliefs. JMO

 

No, it is a religious belief, as well as being what you call a universal one.

 

There are non-religious people opposed to abortion.

[woolley]

Bottom line, women are going to seek abortions if they are legal or not.

 

But this goes for everything.

 

Murder is illegal, and people keep committing murder, legality be damned.

 

If murder was legal, I'd have less of a risk of being shot by a cop if I try to shoot somebody else, right?

 

If heroin was legal, fewer people would get HIV from dirty needles.

 

And I would ask you, is abortion murder? Or is that question irrelevant to you?

[Steely Dan]

Its a very sad story about the Tiller murder.

 

Whats so unfortunate about this argument, is as soon someone considerably religious brings up their dogma into the conversation, it becomes an unwinable argument. "I accept Christ and am going to heaven, regardless of how I treat people or consider my actions in the world, everyone that doesn't, too bad." That, quite frankly, is why a lot of people have a very big issue with the modern Christian in the world.

 

Bottom line, women are going to seek abortions if they are legal or not. Girls will continue to DIE because of dirty abortions, and those in support of life would then say, that an abortion should be legal, right? Isn't any life precious, regardless of its stages? Furthermore, how far does this go? Is it right for us to restrict stem cell research to save potentially THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of real, actually born, living people suffering from untold terrible terminal diseases, even at the cost of embryos that don't get fertilized, and ultimately, destroyed anyway? This is also completely constructed by the religious right to prove a point, because studies are finding that umbilical cord stem cells are just as effective and that doesn't require an abortion to harvest the cells.

 

What basically the religious right wants is a total Catch-22. ABSOLUTELY NO contraceptives of any kind, because of course, that would restrict "life." Forget the amount of disease that could spread, that potentially destroy life, we need to protect this baby from not being conceived. And then when an unwanted pregnancy occurs because birth control, condoms and other safe sex methods are all restricted, girls are forced to raise a child they are ill equipped to raise, and drain the societal welfare system even more. That goes back to the tax payer dollar, that, of course, conservatives raive that we can never raise, or spend, right?

 

Those against responsible, reasonable birth control are just using sexual contact as nothing more than a means of procreation and ownership of a woman's body as that of a man's ultimate possession. Woman have fought for a generation to escape this stupidity. It's very sad that "Octomom" and the "Jon and Kate" are terrible examples of fertilization and medical science used to an extreme means. But seriously, these right to life people need to chill out. 7 billion people live on this planet, is there REALLY room for another billion more?

 

What he said!!

 

 

Personally, I think it's too late to tell someone who's had an abortion what they should have done.

 

The more important issue, I think, is that your friend does not believe she had her child murdered, correct?

 

Are there any victims of rape out there who've given birth, later to regret to *not* having an abortion? Probably, but they most likely wouldn't talk about it I'm thinking.

 

 

 

I absolutely disagree. Most wars in history were about expansion, not religion.

 

 

You're making a very sweeping statement here.

 

Most of us haven't given money to starving people in Botswana. In fact, I'm pretty sure you're more concerned with what you're going to wear to work today than starving people in Botswana. It's not because we don't care for them, it's just the way things are, you can't worry about every issue under the sun, not enough time/money to do that.

 

 

 

Let me add, there aren't a surplus of unadopted babies in this country. The foster-care thing is a major issue.

 

I don't think women get abortions for the supposed fact that there are legions of unadopted babies.

 

Could you walk into an emergency room and tell a little girl that's been brutally raped that she will be killing a child if she aborts the fetus? If you could you're a very cold and uncaring person.

 

Is the Israel vs. Arab conflict a religious fight or a fight for expansion?

 

Let me add you should research things before you make uninformed comments.

 

The State Department says the number of Americans adopting babies from overseas has more than doubled in the last 10 years, with couples often citing a dearth of American babies.

 

But there are plenty of American babies who need homes—African-American babies. And more and more of those children are finding homes abroad, especially in Canada, according to people who work in the U.S. adoption field.

 

“I just don’t understand why American couples go to China and Romania and places like that,” Stroud said, “when they have kids in their own backyards.”

 

A lot of so-called Christians could care less about black American kids.

[Peevo]

But this goes for everything.

 

Murder is illegal, and people keep committing murder, legality be damned.

 

If murder was legal, I'd have less of a risk of being shot by a cop if I try to shoot somebody else, right?

 

If heroin was legal, fewer people would get HIV from dirty needles.

 

And I would ask you, is abortion murder? Or is that question irrelevant to you?

 

 

I just dont think its that simple. Is murder ok in self-defense? When you enlist in the Marines and go kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan for money, is that ok? You can't just say "if murder was legal" because in certain situations, it seems it very much is.

 

To your ultimate question, judging from previous long post, I'd have to say no. Its an answer nobody really on your side of the fence will agree or understand. I get that. Thats why this issue is so divisive in the first place. Perhaps I see things more cynically, but if you're considering getting an abortion in a non-medical emergency/rape/etc situation, you're obviously ill equipped to raise that child. So if you carry an unwanted child to term, you will seek out as much social services to help raise that child, which only puts a further strain on our societal infrastructure and tax base. If a true conservative is concerned about small government size and responsible spending, then I feel that person would want to prevent any chance of another person leeching the system for their own disregard for contraceptive use.

 

This is my ultimate point. If abortion becomes illegal, then contraceptives should be even more available, if not entirely free to the public. How else do you prevent unwanted pregnancy and the spread of sexual infection?

[erynthered]

I just dont think its that simple. Is murder ok in self-defense? When you enlist in the Marines and go kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan for money, is that ok? You can't just say "if murder was legal" because in certain situations, it seems it very much is.

 

To your ultimate question, judging from previous long post, I'd have to say no. Its an answer nobody really on your side of the fence will agree or understand. I get that. Thats why this issue is so divisive in the first place. Perhaps I see things more cynically, but if you're considering getting an abortion in a non-medical emergency/rape/etc situation, you're obviously ill equipped to raise that child. So if you carry an unwanted child to term, you will seek out as much social services to help raise that child, which only puts a further strain on our societal infrastructure and tax base. If a true conservative is concerned about small government size and responsible spending, then I feel that person would want to prevent any chance of another person leeching the system for their own disregard for contraceptive use.

 

This is my ultimate point. If abortion becomes illegal, then contraceptives should be even more available, if not entirely free to the public. How else do you prevent unwanted pregnancy and the spread of sexual infection?

 

Nice post Pee've!!

[Tcali]

I just dont think its that simple. Is murder ok in self-defense? When you enlist in the Marines and go kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan for money, is that ok? You can't just say "if murder was legal" because in certain situations, it seems it very much is.

 

To your ultimate question, judging from previous long post, I'd have to say no. Its an answer nobody really on your side of the fence will agree or understand. I get that. Thats why this issue is so divisive in the first place. Perhaps I see things more cynically, but if you're considering getting an abortion in a non-medical emergency/rape/etc situation, you're obviously ill equipped to raise that child. So if you carry an unwanted child to term, you will seek out as much social services to help raise that child, which only puts a further strain on our societal infrastructure and tax base. If a true conservative is concerned about small government size and responsible spending, then I feel that person would want to prevent any chance of another person leeching the system for their own disregard for contraceptive use.

 

This is my ultimate point. If abortion becomes illegal, then contraceptives should be even more available, if not entirely free to the public. How else do you prevent unwanted pregnancy and the spread of sexual infection?

I dont think you can murder in self defense

[tennesseeboy]

Your hypothetical is so outrageously outrageous that your post has no impact on me whatsoever, besides noting its outrageous outrageousness.

Thanks...that added a lot to the discussion. Hard to question your logic

[tennesseeboy]

But the govt often does have to enforce our religious and moral beliefs.

no...our country was founded on the supposition that it had limits as set forth in the preamble of the constitution (and the Constitution and bill of rights.) If it is enforcing MY religious beliefs we might save money and let the pope and the vatican run it.

[woolley]

Could you walk into an emergency room and tell a little girl that's been brutally raped that she will be killing a child if she aborts the fetus? If you could you're a very cold and uncaring person.

 

I don't think I could do this, no. That doesn't change what I believe....namely, the fact that an abortion kills an innocent child, regardless of the circumstances behind the pregnancy.

 

Is the Israel vs. Arab conflict a religious fight or a fight for expansion?

 

Both. I believe that land is the primary issue in the minds of the Arab political leaders in the region.

 

Let me add you should research things before you make uninformed comments.

 

Are white parents hesitant to adopt black children? Sure. And the fact remains, the primary issue is not babies (black or other) not being adopted, but the large numbers of children in foster care.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/17/us/17adopt.html?_r=1

 

Not sure what the point is. Is the point that there are pregnant women getting abortions because they feel that if they give birth, their child will not be adopted? If that is the point, how informed is that point, do tell?

 

A lot of so-called Christians could care less about black American kids.

 

The hypocrisy of sinners...I won't accept that as a reason for overriding the fact, or an opinion, that abortion is the killing of innocent life.

 

Meaning...if we both accept, or believe, that abortion is the killing of innocent life, we diverge in that you would use the fact of hypocrite Christians to make abortion acceptable. I don't believe that the existence of hypocrisy makes abortion acceptable.

[woolley]

Perhaps I see things more cynically, but if you're considering getting an abortion in a non-medical emergency/rape/etc situation, you're obviously ill equipped to raise that child.

 

If I'm considering driving through a red light, am I obviously ill equipped to drive a car? I'd say no. I'd say most drivers, maybe 75% or more, have at one time considered driving through a red light. Humans consider all sorts of things, all the time. I'm sure 99.9% of people have considered doing something illegal.

 

So if you carry an unwanted child to term, you will seek out as much social services to help raise that child, which only puts a further strain on our societal infrastructure and tax base. If a true conservative is concerned about small government size and responsible spending, then I feel that person would want to prevent any chance of another person leeching the system for their own disregard for contraceptive use.

 

If you believe that abortion is the *killing of innocent human life*, don't you think this would override any ideological position, such as fiscal conservatism?

[woolley]

Thanks...that added a lot to the discussion. Hard to question your logic

 

Your hypothetical has never existed in the history of the world. Pass.