Fitna

[OCinBuffalo]

It is relevant to show that religion, no matter which one, can and has been used as a justification of violence. This points to the problem not being one religion itself, but other influences and factors.

If that's relevant to this debate, then so is the fact that the sun is going to come up tomorrow. We are talking about how Islam is supposedly being misused today, not about anything else. Trying to tell us that the Islam is not involved in this, but rather "other influences and factors" is silly. I will concede that other factors might involved, but the fact is that is Islam is definitely involved, and the fact that Islam has significant prescriptions for "justifiable" violence, and the fact that there are idiots running around right now killing strangers, and their own family, due to Islam, are all undeniable.

 

What has happened in other religions 800 years ago has nothing to do with this.

[Andrew in CA]

I'm not going to quote your whole post. I get it. You read the whole Koran. I didn't. I'm dumb, you smart. You are the authority on this, I take my professors' words as gospel. I have no capability of forming my own opinion. You're doing a great job of convincing people on this issue, I'm sure.

[Chilly]

If that's relevant to this debate, then so is the fact that the sun is going to come up tomorrow. We are talking about how Islam is supposedly being misused today, not about anything else. Trying to tell us that the Islam is not involved in this, but rather "other influences and factors" is silly. I will concede that other factors might involved, but the fact is that is Islam is definitely involved, and the fact that Islam has significant prescriptions for "justifiable" violence, and the fact that there are idiots running around right now killing strangers, and their own family, due to Islam, are all undeniable.

 

What has happened in other religions 800 years ago has nothing to do with this.

 

You don't see ANY relevance to a historically-supported pattern of the use of religion for violence to what is going on today?

[In space no one can hear]

If that's relevant to this debate, then so is the fact that the sun is going to come up tomorrow. We are talking about how Islam is supposedly being misused today, not about anything else. Trying to tell us that the Islam is not involved in this, but rather "other influences and factors" is silly. I will concede that other factors might involved, but the fact is that is Islam is definitely involved, and the fact that Islam has significant prescriptions for "justifiable" violence, and the fact that there are idiots running around right now killing strangers, and their own family, due to Islam, are all undeniable.

 

What has happened in other religions 800 years ago has nothing to do with this.

 

 

Actually, I thought we were talking about the movie Fitna.

 

The film concludes with scrolling messages reading in part:

 

" the Islamic ideology has to be defeated."

 

I disagree with the films assertion, and feel that the western impulse to destroy Islam only fans the flames of radicals in the Islamic community.

[OCinBuffalo]

You don't see ANY relevance to a historically-supported pattern of the use of religion for violence to what is going on today?

Not in a discussion about what to do about the Islamic religiosity TODAY that not only justifies violence, but specifically calls for the death of anyone who criticizes it. Again, we are are talking about what to do about it TODAY because it is a problem TODAY. When Christianity was burning witches 400 years ago, that was a problem then, and it was solved then = no more burning witches. If there were people burning witches TODAY due to misguided Judaism, or Hinduism, or whatever, then we would have to talk about how to stop that. But, in fact, that is not happening. The fact is that the ONLY religion that is causing us problems with regard to violence TODAY is Islam. And therefore something must be done about this religiosity, not necessarily destroy the religion, but destroy/disrupt those who are using it for their own ends, and break their hold on minds of the people under their influence.

[Chilly]

Not in a discussion about what to do about the Islamic religiosity TODAY that not only justifies violence, but specifically calls for the death of anyone who criticizes it. Again, we are are talking about what to do about it TODAY because it is a problem TODAY. When Christianity was burning witches 400 years ago, that was a problem then, and it was solved then = no more burning witches. If there were people burning witches TODAY due to misguided Judaism, or Hinduism, or whatever, then we would have to talk about how to stop that. But, in fact, that is not happening. The fact is that the ONLY religion that is causing us problems with regard to violence TODAY is Islam. And therefore something must be done about this religiosity, not necessarily destroy the religion, but destroy/disrupt those who are using it for their own ends, and break their hold on minds of the people under their influence.

 

And this is why we will never agree - you view this as an isolated incident, I view this as a pattern throughout history.

[OCinBuffalo]

I'm not going to quote your whole post. I get it. You read the whole Koran. I didn't. I'm dumb, you smart. You are the authority on this, I take my professors' words as gospel. I have no capability of forming my own opinion. You're doing a great job of convincing people on this issue, I'm sure.

Yep that's what I said...hysterical. I guess you didn't find the part about how the rules are manipulated compelling, or, is it that you don't like being confronted with questions that you have conveniently glossed over in a lame effort to kill the messenger instead of responding to the message. If I am not convincing, fine, what are you doing? Specifically what have you added to this other than bluster and pompously telling me what I can say and what I can't?

[OCinBuffalo]

And this is why we will never agree - you view this as an isolated incident, I view this as a pattern throughout history.

No I do not. I view this as radical Islam is a problem that must be dealt with because it is a today problem. Clearly using religion for bad is a pattern. Or haven't you been paying attention to the last 10 posts I wrote where I specifically cite things that Christianity has done wrong. The problem is all of these examples happened over 300 years ago. When those people were confronted with their problems with misguided religious beliefs they had to deal with them. Now it is our turn to deal with misguided Islam, because that is where the problem is. What happened 300+ years ago in some other religions has no bearing on that.

[Chilly]

No I do not. I view this as radical Islam is a problem that must be dealt with because it is a today problem. Clearly using religion for bad is a pattern. Or haven't you been paying attention to the last 10 posts I wrote where I specifically cite things that Christianity has done wrong. The problem is all of these examples happened over 300 years ago. When those people were confronted with their problems with misguided religious beliefs they had to deal with them. Now it is our turn to deal with misguided Islam, because that is where the problem is. What happened 300+ years ago in some other religions has no bearing on that.

 

An isolated incident in the sense that it has no bearing on today.

[OCinBuffalo]

An isolated incident in the sense that it has no bearing on today.

What bearing does it have? What specifically are we supposed to draw on from the examples I have cited, or use any other ones that you like, that is going to instruct us on how to deal with our problems with these radical Islamic people? I.E. what relevance does the Salem witch trials have in dealing with OBL? How about this: what did we do with the Barbary Pirates?

[Chilly]

What bearing does it have? What specifically are we supposed to draw on from the examples I have cited, or use any other ones that you like, that is going to instruct us on how to deal with our problems with these radical Islamic people? I.E. what relevance does the Salem witch trials have in dealing with OBL? How about this: what did we do with the Barbary Pirates?

 

Feel free to re-read the thread.

[OCinBuffalo]

Feel free to re-read the thread.

And that's an answer how? I have yet to see anywhere where you have answered that simple question. So, I dunno. I am telling you that I agree with you that religion has been used for violence in a pattern for as long as religion has been around. And that's fine, I just don't see how pointing that out helps us with what to do about radical Islam, and you have provided nothing in this entire thread that answers that question.

[Chilly]

And that's an answer how? I have yet to see anywhere where you have answered that simple question. So, I dunno. I am telling you that I agree with you that religion has been used for violence in a pattern for as long as religion has been around. And that's fine, I just don't see how pointing that out helps us with what to do about radical Islam, and you have provided nothing in this entire thread that answers that question.

 

Feel free to re-read the thread.

 

I r dUn, we r cirCLEs

[OCinBuffalo]

Feel free to re-read the thread.

 

I r dUn, we r cirCLEs

Done. The only thing I found, as I suspected, that might even be close to an answer to my question is that you stated that the history of misuse of religion usually is politically motivated. So, I suppose we could say that the best lesson from history is: go after the political premises that spawn the misuse of religion.

 

But that's about it. I still don't see how every time religion is misused somehow there is a political agenda behind it. In fact, there are many cases where politics have had nothing to do with it. So perhaps we can agree that in this case, politics is the driving factor and so we need a political solution, as opposed to a anti-religious one?

 

And, if you don't want to play anymore fine, I guess I'll go back to work.

[Chilly]

Done. The only thing I found, as I suspected, that might even be close to an answer to my question is that you stated that the history of misuse of religion usually is politically motivated. So, I suppose we could say that the best lesson from history is: go after the political premises that spawn the misuse of religion.

 

But that's about it. I still don't see how every time religion is misused somehow there is a political agenda behind it. In fact, there are many cases where politics have had nothing to do with it. So perhaps we can agree that in this case, politics is the driving factor and so we need a political solution, as opposed to a anti-religious one?

 

And, if you don't want to play anymore fine, I guess I'll go back to work.

 

Yeah, thats more or less what I was referring to.

[K-9]

Done. The only thing I found, as I suspected, that might even be close to an answer to my question is that you stated that the history of misuse of religion usually is politically motivated. So, I suppose we could say that the best lesson from history is: go after the political premises that spawn the misuse of religion.

 

But that's about it. I still don't see how every time religion is misused somehow there is a political agenda behind it. In fact, there are many cases where politics have had nothing to do with it. So perhaps we can agree that in this case, politics is the driving factor and so we need a political solution, as opposed to a anti-religious one?

 

And, if you don't want to play anymore fine, I guess I'll go back to work.

 

In ALL theocracies religion IS politics. Past or present.

 

It is no coincidence that the radical Islamic movement was and continues to be fomented in theocracies that carry the most geopolitical sway as the entire world's economy is based on the resources these theocracies control. These radical leaders, especially Bin Laden and others like him, seek POLITICAL influence they can't otherwise generate without the mass recruitment of those willing to toe a certain party line.

 

That's why the solution will eventually be a POLITICAL one.

[Andrew in CA]

Yep that's what I said...hysterical. I guess you didn't find the part about how the rules are manipulated compelling, or, is it that you don't like being confronted with questions that you have conveniently glossed over in a lame effort to kill the messenger instead of responding to the message. If I am not convincing, fine, what are you doing? Specifically what have you added to this other than bluster and pompously telling me what I can say and what I can't?

Admittedly, I've brought nothing to the topic. As I stated earlier, I'm no expert on the subject, yet you took that to mean I was a know-it-all. I called you out on something I wasn't involved in, and have already stated I should have stayed out of it in hindsight. So we've had this little pissing contest going, and I'm done. Unless you'd like to carry on and get offended at more stuff, your lordship .