geggytah Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 recall when RJ was starting and taking a sack every 6 pass attempts, the offensive line was much maligned for the poor pass protection. enter Flutie, and voila, our OL becomes much more than adequate...in fact i'd go as far as to say a team strength. now i don't want to spark a debate over DF and RJ, because this thread really has nothing to do with them other than for comparison's sake...but there is a point when a QB (RJ and now DB) gets that deer caught in the headlights look every time he drops back to pass. i'm not sure this "sickness" is curable. there has to be an aura of confidence and maybe a little cockiness from the QB position that says "I dare you to blitz cause i am gonna LIGHT YOU UP if you do." now i'm not saying Losman has THAT type of confidence, but he certainly has a lot of some kind of confidence. drew, on the other hand, can make all the throws IF the throws are there to make. he does not create throwing lanes nor does he dictate to defenses where he wants to go. JP Losman needs to lead this team ASAP. do i think he'll be succssful this year? no, probably not. but the sooner he gets his feet wet, the sooner he will be dictating to the defenses what they can and cannot do to him. look at the eagles right now. how do you stop that offense? you have to double TO every play. you have to account for lewis/smith at the TE spot. their 2 and 3 WR are fast and atheltic enough to make plays vs one on one coverage. westbrook may be the quickest back in the league. McNabb is the x-factor though. he will eat you alive from the pocket, on the rollout, OR running...AND he has a rediculous amount of confidence in every player on the field (including himself). we have players equal to or better than the philly skill postition players except for mcnabb. insert Losman...the sooner he gets on field experience, the sooner we have a mcnabb-esque QB. disclaimer: i know losman is not guarunteed to be a great or even solid QB year after year. i do know he has what DB doesn't...potential. we know drew is not the answer...we don't know what JP is/could be. after all that is said though, i hope drew proves me wrong in all of this and JP can sit back and learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 >>> enter Flutie, and voila, our OL becomes much more than adequate...in fact i'd go as far as to say a team strength.<<< It was not a team strength. They sucked, but Flutie was elusive, and thrived on broken plays. To be sure, there were lots of them with the stench that we had up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geggytah Posted September 26, 2004 Author Share Posted September 26, 2004 see i'm not so sure that they were bad with flutie under center....in fact i DEFINATELY recall game announcers referring to our line as young, improving, and being relied upon as a strength. i don't think they were THE team strength, but they were A strength. and i do agree there were times when the line made mistakes and flutie improvised to cover some of them up, but in general the line played better. perhaps it was an attitude they developed...i don't know. but they were better. one reason they may have been better is this...and i recall this after watching mcnabb today. in order to contain the running or rolling out of the QB, edge rushers have been containing running QB's instead of actually going after them. in essence, this takes the 2 DE's out of the play if the QB stays in the pocket. i like the odds of playing 9 on 9 rather than 11 on 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Flutie started many of his plays by rolling out because when he stayed in the pocket, many of his passes were blocked. Remember? This somewhat nullified the rush from the other side, and created a situation where the offensive linemen did not have to hold their blocks for more than a second or two, (not that they were able to). Defenses beat Flutie by staying back and keeping him in the pocket. He did not have the arm to deliver downfield passes. That said, he WAS one of the most exciting players I ever saw. My post is not a knock on Flutie. My quarrel with your post is your comment about the OL. It is killing any hope of bringing the Lombardi Trophy to Buffalo, and has been doing so for close to 10 years. TD is no better than Mr Butler in this regard, perhaps worse. At least on the only occasion that Mr Butler drafted an offensive lineman in the first round (Ruben Brown), he was good, unlike Bust Williams at #4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BADOL Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 >>> enter Flutie, and voila, our OL becomes much more than adequate...in fact i'd go as far as to say a team strength.<<< It was not a team strength. They sucked, but Flutie was elusive, and thrived on broken plays. To be sure, there were lots of them with the stench that we had up front. 46103[/snapback] Amazing how quickly people forget. The Bills still had a lousy offensive line. Teams just attacked them differently. When he replaced Johnson in 1998, Flutie held the ball until someone came open or he had a running lane. He could do that, and he stretched the defense a lot of ways in most of his first 12-13 games with the Bills. Fluties "sack" became his inability to stand in the pocket and deliver the "outs" and deep balls with any consistency at all. It's cliche, but pro quarterbacks have to be able to throw that "out" or defenses can just take away the middle of the field all together. Next thing you know the Chargers are on an 11 game losing streak. But they aren't giving up many sacks. Drew getting blitzed up the middle through a porous line or Flutie being given all day but confined to the pocket by a passive defense....pick your poison, neither option is a winner. Ultimately, winning still begins up front. JP Losman can move, but he will need a running game and he will need to be able to have time to stand in and execute the offense as it is drawn up if the Bills are to become a consistent playoff-contending team again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geggytah Posted September 27, 2004 Author Share Posted September 27, 2004 Flutie started many of his plays by rolling out because when he stayed in the pocket, many of his passes were blocked. Remember? This somewhat nullified the rush from the other side, and created a situation where the offensive linemen did not have to hold their blocks for more than a second or two, (not that they were able to). Defenses beat Flutie by staying back and keeping him in the pocket. He did not have the arm to deliver downfield passes. EXACTLY....the DE's were taken out of the game in a sense because they had to contain, not rush. watch the eagles play and see the time and throwing lanes mcnabb has because teams are afraid to rush him and force him out of the pocket. this isn't because their line is great (its prob better than the bills' line, but i don't see dominating play out of the eagles' line). losman would give us this added dimension to our offense, which in turn would make defenses rush us differently. drew cannot do this...CANNOT do this. heck, denver's offensive line would look bad with drew behind center. also, think about this...minnesota's o-line is widely considered as one of the league's best. watch the tape from the eagles game last monday night. 'pep hardly ever had 3 seconds before he had to either throw or scramble. if that is drew, it would have been 3 seconds to throw or take a sack. the NFL has simply outgrown the pure pocket passer...we need JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geggytah Posted September 27, 2004 Author Share Posted September 27, 2004 Amazing how quickly people forget. The Bills still had a lousy offensive line. Teams just attacked them differently. When he replaced Johnson in 1998, Flutie held the ball until someone came open or he had a running lane. He could do that, and he stretched the defense a lot of ways in most of his first 12-13 games with the Bills. Fluties "sack" became his inability to stand in the pocket and deliver the "outs" and deep balls with any consistency at all. It's cliche, but pro quarterbacks have to be able to throw that "out" or defenses can just take away the middle of the field all together. Next thing you know the Chargers are on an 11 game losing streak. But they aren't giving up many sacks. Drew getting blitzed up the middle through a porous line or Flutie being given all day but confined to the pocket by a passive defense....pick your poison, neither option is a winner. Ultimately, winning still begins up front. JP Losman can move, but he will need a running game and he will need to be able to have time to stand in and execute the offense as it is drawn up if the Bills are to become a consistent playoff-contending team again. 46166[/snapback] so you're saying that when we went 10-6 (10-3 with DF), and lost to tennesee in the playoffs, we had a bad offensive line? as i recall, we had a GREAT team that year and if not for the music city miracle many ppl (not just bills fans) were high on the bills getting the super bowl. and we did this with a bad o line? i don't think so. in fact i distinctly remember the line being referred to as a strength of the team. were there blue chip first rounders? nope....but we were a young line that developed into a solid cohesive and physically intimidating line. not the best in the league but we were better than average. ANY way, the point of all of this isn't to say that a change in QB will make our individual offensive line players better. my point is that defenses cannot attack the o line the same way with a mobile QB under center. add in that the fact that JP has a great arm, and we have the makings of an eagles-esque offense. how can you not see this? sure JP won't be as good as donovan, but with experience, why can't he be? he need the experience ASAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 so you're saying that when we went 10-6 (10-3 with DF), and lost to tennesee in the playoffs, we had a bad offensive line? Our offensive line wasn't bad that year. It was absolutely freaking horrible. Cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Our offensive line wasn't bad that year.It was absolutely freaking horrible. Cya 46243[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geggytah Posted September 27, 2004 Author Share Posted September 27, 2004 ok...just looked up the stats: in 1999 we were 2nd in the league in rushing attempts (show our ability to effectively run the ball) and 8th in the league in total rushing yards. flutie passed for 3100 yards in 13 games. hmmm....i highly doubt that those stats could be put up with an "absolutely freaking horrible" offensive line. now, back to me winning this discussion..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 hmmm....i highly doubt that those stats could be put up with an "absolutely freaking horrible" offensive line. You can doubt all you want, but if you actually watched that line play football you'd know they were awful. Provided of course you like football better than math/statistics and were actually watching the games. Cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geggytah Posted September 27, 2004 Author Share Posted September 27, 2004 last i knew...stats are a great assessment of ability. kinda like looking at win-loss record we have with DB as our QB or our passing yardage over the last 16 games to judge the ability of our QB to put stress on a defense. and yes i DID watch the games and i have also watched games of countless other teams. our offensive line is no worse than at least 16 other teams in the league. the difference is the QB behind center that cannot cope when the offensive line does not function PERFECTLY on every play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 our offensive line is no worse than at least 16 other teams in the league. the difference is the QB behind center that cannot cope when the offensive line does not function PERFECTLY on every play. I didn't meantion anything about our current OLine or QB, and I generally agree with what you say. I was just talking about the OLine in '99 and I think it was awful and teh real weakness of the team. As for stats, I don't put much stock in them because you can always find some and spin them to say whatever it is you want to say. I'm sure I could go find a bunch of '99 stats and claim they prove the OLine was awful. But in reality all they would prove is that I have way too much time on my hands;-) Cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 LMAO!!! No one brings up the #1 defense back in 1999 either! Subjective blindness will not win you many arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Flutie was benched for Rob Johnson because of his inability to move the ball...the offense was incredibly frustrating to watch...the defense would hold other teams down like our current defense and you'd usually have to wait until the last 2 minutes of the game to find out who won come to think of it, Flutie was good his first year as a Bill...after that, the offense has been mired in mediocrity...we've been watching crap for the last 5-6 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geggytah Posted September 27, 2004 Author Share Posted September 27, 2004 Flutie was benched for Rob Johnson because of his inability to move the ball...the offense was incredibly frustrating to watch...the defense would hold other teams down like our current defense and you'd usually have to wait until the last 2 minutes of the game to find out who woncome to think of it, Flutie was good his first year as a Bill...after that, the offense has been mired in mediocrity...we've been watching crap for the last 5-6 years 46409[/snapback] Flutie went to the freaking PRO BOWL that year? he couldn't move the offense though????? the bills were 2nd in the league in attempts for rushing and 8th in total rushing yardage, but we couldn't run the ball??????? yeah i'll admit that having a great defense that got the offense the ball and made it possible to play a ball control/big play offenese was a key kog in the team's success....but come on, yardage is yardage. we weren't offensive juggernaugt's or anything, but the line was respectable....and a team strength (if only because we relied so heavily on it). in all these posts i am not saying anything about us having the equivalent of the kansas city o line of right now, but i am saying that our team in '99 AND for that matter, ANY team that has ever gotten to the playoffs, has had at least a top 16 line in the NFL. its not possible to win without a offensive and defensive line that can impose their will on another team. back to my original point about bledsoe being the cause of at least some of the woes...just check out some other NFL games and see how much time other QB's have to throw. my bet is you'll find its just about the same amount as drew has for us. the difference is that drew cannot manufacture plays, he can only make the ones that are there in front of him. could the line play better? yeah....but they could also play worse IMOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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