IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 That has been our Offensive output. 2-9 in the last 11 games. Bottom Line. Not enough talent on the offensive side of the ball. Where are all the Eric Moulds and Travis Henry lovers now?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 How many points were put up by the defense? I know Nate has a TD or two and our defense is responsible for at least one other TD. How many trips have we made to the red zone and come away with zero points the last 11 games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 How many points were put up by the defense? I know Nate has a TD or two and our defense is responsible for at least one other TD. How many trips have we made to the red zone and come away with zero points the last 11 games? 37405[/snapback] Exactly. But Travis is a Top 5 back and Eric is a Top 5 WR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 0-2. We have lost to the team that was the 8th worst team last season and the 2nd worst team last season. Ahhh who can we beat?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 I never said Travis was a top 5 back but he is a quality starting back. Moulds is a top WR. Like I said its not his problem Drew sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Exactly. But Travis is a Top 5 back and Eric is a Top 5 WR! 37413[/snapback] It all starts with the Oline...doesn't matter who you have at the skill positions if the Oline doesn't do its job or the QB can't get the WRs the ball. Henry is a top 12-15RB...and Moulds IS a top 5WR. Both are certainly good enough to do the job with a supporting cast that is worth a damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 It all starts with the Oline...doesn't matter who you have at the skill positions if the Oline doesn't do its job or the QB can't get the WRs the ball. Henry is a top 12-15RB...and Moulds IS a top 5WR. Both are certainly good enough to do the job with a supporting cast that is worth a damn. 37421[/snapback] Ok.. Excuses, Excuses. Great players find a way. Marvin Harrison Terrell Owens Randy Moss Torry Holt Hines Ward. These are the Top 5 WR's Moulds is no where near that class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Ok.. Excuses, Excuses. Great players find a way. Marvin Harrison Terrell Owens Randy Moss Torry Holt Hines Ward. These are the Top 5 WR's Moulds is no where near that class. 37426[/snapback] I do however agree completely with the "it all starts with the offensive line" that is 100% on the mark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Ok.. Excuses, Excuses. Great players find a way. Marvin Harrison Terrell Owens Randy Moss Torry Holt Hines Ward. These are the Top 5 WR's Moulds is no where near that class. 37426[/snapback] I'd take Moulds over Ward any day of the week...and Holt is a toss up, put Moulds in that offense and see the numbers he'd put up. I'll give you Harrison, Owens and Moss, they are the creme of the crop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 I'd take Moulds over Ward any day of the week...and Holt is a toss up, put Moulds in that offense and see the numbers he'd put up. I'll give you Harrison, Owens and Moss, they are the creme of the crop. 37439[/snapback] Holt is a toss up?? Wow.. I needed a laugh. Hines Ward..you are so wrong. I am not even going to give you the stat differental. It is not even close! I wont because I am sure you will give me the whole Eric plays for a bad team cry. How many catches did he have today? The answer? The same as the number of easy drops he had. Eric Mould is in the Top 10-14 WR's. Look at it logically. Stop being a homer and look at realistically. Last year it was the coaching, Now it is this. You know what? It is the lack of Top 5 players. The lack of talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Holt is a toss up?? Wow.. I needed a laugh. Hines Ward..you are so wrong. I am not even going to give you the stat differental. It is not even close! I wont because I am sure you will give me the whole Eric plays for a bad team cry. How many catches did he have today? The answer? The same as the number of easy drops he had. Eric Mould is in the Top 10-14 WR's. Look at it logically. Stop being a homer and look at realistically. Last year it was the coaching, Now it is this. You know what? It is the lack of Top 5 players. The lack of talent. 37454[/snapback] Sorry to disagree, but you're wrong. It's easy to look at stats and say, "this guy has better stats, he must be better!" It's a little more difficult to look at what a WR does when he's given opportunities and how the offense works with him and without him. I'm not being a homer, hell that's the last thing anybody that knows me has ever said about me, I'm overly critical of teams and things I love. Moulds isn't a perfect WR by any means, but the guy is, IMO, just as good or better than every WR in the league not named Harrison, Moss, or Owens...even if the stats don't back it up. I'd LOVE to see what a soft WR like Holt would do in the offenses Moulds has played in the last 6 years. I'll tell you what, he wouldn't put up better numbers than Moulds has...though I'm sure you think he would...which is why this debate is pointless, neither of us are going to change our opinion. You need to start watching other teams play. Sure Moulds’ drops irritate you a ton because it’s the Bills, but if you watched these other WRs you notice that "gasp" they drop the ball too… particularly a guy like Owens who drops the ball more than just about any WR in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Sorry to disagree, but you're wrong. It's easy to look at stats and say, "this guy has better stats, he must be better!" It's a little more difficult to look at what a WR does when he's given opportunities and how the offense works with him and without him. I'm not being a homer, hell that's the last thing anybody that knows me has ever said about me, I'm overly critical of teams and things I love. Moulds isn't a perfect WR by any means, but the guy is, IMO, just as good or better than every WR in the league not named Harrison, Moss, or Owens...even if the stats don't back it up. I'd LOVE to see what a soft WR like Holt would do in the offenses Moulds has played in the last 6 years. I'll tell you what, he wouldn't put up better numbers than Moulds has...though I'm sure you think he would...which is why this debate is pointless, neither of us are going to change our opinion. You need to start watching other teams play. Sure Moulds’ drops irritate you a ton because it’s the Bills, but if you watched these other WRs you notice that "gasp" they drop the ball too… particularly a guy like Owens who drops the ball more than just about any WR in the league. 37479[/snapback] Torry Holt 151 and a TD. Hines Ward 121. I do watch other games. It is clear that Moulds is not a Top 5 WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Torry Holt 151 and a TD.Hines Ward 121. I do watch other games. It is clear that Moulds is not a Top 5 WR. 37490[/snapback] NFL Network had a poll of the best WR. They listed 7 WR's. Why was Moulds not on that list?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 NFL Network had a poll of the best WR. They listed 7 WR's. Why was Moulds not on that list?? 37493[/snapback] Because these lists are based on last year's production...and he was hurt for 11 weeks last year. All the media ever does is go by last year, be it in their predictions for how teams will do this year or who is the best player in the league. It's what have you done for me lately, and a player who was hurt most of last year doesn't get the respect. I've heard Steve Young (a guy who knows a thing or two about football) say that Moulds is the 4th best WR in the league...that means more to me than some poll the NFL network put on their webpage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Because these lists are based on last year's production...and he was hurt for 11 weeks last year. All the media ever does is go by last year, be it in their predictions for how teams will do this year or who is the best player in the league. It's what have you done for me lately, and a player who was hurt most of last year doesn't get the respect. I've heard Steve Young (a guy who knows a thing or two about football) say that Moulds is the 4th best WR in the league...that means more to me than some poll the NFL network put on their webpage... 37498[/snapback] Well that is the NFL. What have you done for me lately. Week 1- 2 fumbles. Week 2- 41 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Well that is the NFL. What have you done for me lately. Week 1- 2 fumbles. Week 2- 41 yards. Deuce Mcallister has 2 fumbles and 76 total yards in two games. He must not be very good according to your logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Deuce Mcallister has 2 fumbles and 76 total yards in two games. He must not be very good according to your logic 37509[/snapback] Moulds is not a top WR anymore. Steve Young says he good? Well Chris Mortenson said we would make the playoffs. Guess what... They are both wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Deuce Mcallister has 2 fumbles and 76 total yards in two games. He must not be very good according to your logic 37509[/snapback] It is not logic that determines that Moulds is not a Top 5. It is a fact that he is not top 5. Scoutsinc on ESPN ranks Moulds 14th. FoxSports ranks Moulds 11th. Need more. But if Steve Young says so then I guess all these guys must be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Well that is the NFL. What have you done for me lately. Week 1- 2 fumbles. Week 2- 41 yards. 37507[/snapback] You keep quoting stats as if that proves your point... I’d also mention that Moulds only had 1 fumble last week, to try and even pin that lateral on him is ridiculous. I'm pissed off at the O too, but it doesn't mean every single player on it totally sucks or isn't a top-flight player. As for your stats, I'd say let's see what Moulds numbers look like at the end of the season and then compare them to other top WRs...and then take into account the types of offenses each plays in, the weather conditions they play in and the quality of the talent on those offenses around those WRs (particularly at QB). The fact that you don't want to take these things into consideration illustrates that you don't watch the games, you just look at the stats. Is it a coincidence that the Harrison, Moss, and Holt all play in domes and all play for teams that air it out? No stevestojan WRs who are as talented as those guys and play in those conditions put up monster stats… Moulds might just be the most complete WR in the league, a guy who is big and physical and can go across the middle and who can also go deep. There are guys who do each of these things better than he does but not many, if any, who can do all of them as well as Moulds. I’d also add that last year, when asked who the best WR in the league was besides himself, TO answered “Eric Moulds”. Guys who don’t just look at stats know what kind of WR Moulds is. Stats aren’t everything. Anyway, I’m done with this discussion, we’ll never agree on this and for some reason you seem to have the need to run down every play on the Bills tonight, which is somewhat understandable considering how our season is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyJay1234 Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 You keep quoting stats as if that proves your point... I’d also mention that Moulds only had 1 fumble last week, to try and even pin that lateral on him is ridiculous. I'm pissed off at the O too, but it doesn't mean every single player on it totally sucks or isn't a top-flight player. As for your stats, I'd say let's see what Moulds numbers look like at the end of the season and then compare them to other top WRs...and then take into account the types of offenses each plays in, the weather conditions they play in and the quality of the talent on those offenses around those WRs (particularly at QB). The fact that you don't want to take these things into consideration illustrates that you don't watch the games, you just look at the stats. Is it a coincidence that the Harrison, Moss, and Holt all play in domes and all play for teams that air it out? No stevestojan WRs who are as talented as those guys and play in those conditions put up monster stats… Moulds might just be the most complete WR in the league, a guy who is big and physical and can go across the middle and who can also go deep. There are guys who do each of these things better than he does but not many, if any, who can do all of them as well as Moulds. I’d also add that last year, when asked who the best WR in the league was besides himself, TO answered “Eric Moulds”. Guys who don’t just look at stats know what kind of WR Moulds is. Stats aren’t everything. Anyway, I’m done with this discussion, we’ll never agree on this and for some reason you seem to have the need to run down every play on the Bills tonight, which is somewhat understandable considering how our season is going. 37521[/snapback] I have no problem watching the season play out. Just understand that half of your argument is excuses why Moulds does not put up numbers. The guy had the ball thrown to him how many times today? He was non existent in the 1st half. I do understand he was injured last season. I take that into account. He does not look back to form as of 2 games into the season. The Eric Moulds of 2-3 years ago I have no argument was a Top5 WR. The Eric Moulds of this season I consider Top 10-15. Holt has been very consisent and as you will see will continue to destroy Defenses. The same can be said for Hines Ward who plays in a similiar offense to Eric Moulds. Ward still makes things happen. He plays outdoors with a limited QB and a decent running game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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