If Rian Lindell were the Pat's kicker

[AKC]

Ignoring all the regular season losses he'd be responsible for over the past 3 years, and merely considering playoff games, the Pats lose the first Super Bowl on Lindells' foot and Lindell is unable to save Brady's pathetic red zone play against Indy last year and they lose the championship game, failing to reach the big game.

 

Zero rings, zero hype about Tinky Winky, and oddly the exact same result for their kicker Vinatieri- no recognition for being the one player who's carried them to two Super Bowl wins.

 

It's one of the great studies of NFL fans- those who focus on the football every week obsess about the QB position, failing to recognize who is really making the differences. And it will never change. 70 percent of fans will watch to see where the ball goes every play and miss all the critical elements that are actually leading to wins and losses. The only time they'll get it right is the 1/33rd of times that a QB, on the average, is actually the player most responible for a win or a loss. But there is one thing undeniable among message board fans- if you want to see who knows the least about the game of football just check to see if the QB position is the focus of their posting history. If the QB shows up in 70% of their posts you can bank on their observations having nothing to do with the reality of play in the NFL.

 

This Sunday's game is a great example of the above. Anyone who reached the conclusion, after overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that a change at QB would have been the difference-maker in the outcome might broaden their understanding of the game by changing instead their viewing habits.

 

We're beaking in a new coach, a guy who I doubt will ever again let his defense play a 4th down, half ending play without a scream of "knock it down" from the sidelines. There's an easy 6 players who you might tag the loss on, none of whom threw any passes in the game. We've got the worst personell decision of the Donohoe era in Lindell. Perhaps TD makes up for his reticence to let GW go during a season by bringing in a real NFL kicker. A quality kicker has worked out well for our divisonal rivals in NE.

[Foxboro Mike]

So, now it's Lindell's fault the Bills haven't contended?

 

Your obsession with Tom Brady is odd. Have you considered a 12-step program?

[AKC]

So, now it's Lindell's fault the Bills haven't contended? 

 

Your obsession with Tom Brady is odd.  Have you considered a 12-step program? 

30933[/snapback]

 

And to what do I owe a visit from the Travis Bickel of Bledsoe fans- did you wear out your VCR watching the Pitt/NE Championship game?

[DeeRay]

This has got to be a 1st prize winner in the stupidest post ever sweepstakes.

 

If Brady wasn't there to get them in position to kick a FG Vinitieri wouldn't have the opportunity....blah, blah, blah. And if the queen a had balls she'd be king.

 

Pats just have better coaching and better players.... period. Our beloved Bills are recycling their trash at a way above market price for slugs... (Bledsoe/Milloy)

 

Folks have just got to give the Pats their due. With all of the injuries to frontline players they had to overcome last year to win the SB, I know my hat's off to them... even though I despise that team.

[Foxboro Mike]

And to what do I owe a visit from the Travis Bickel of Bledsoe fans- did you wear out your VCR watching the Pitt/NE Championship game?

30951[/snapback]

 

Oh - I'll have the copies of the Raiders/Pats playoff game along with SB 36 and 38 ready for you in a few days.

[AKC]

This has got to be a 1st prize winner in the stupidest post ever sweepstakes.

 

If Brady wasn't there to get them in position to kick a FG Vinitieri wouldn't have the opportunity....blah, blah, blah.  And if the queen a had balls she'd be king.

 

Pats just have better coaching and better players.... period.  Our beloved Bills are recycling their trash at a way above market price for slugs... (Bledsoe/Milloy)

 

Folks have just got to give the Pats their due.  With all of the injuries to frontline players they had to overcome last year to win the SB, I know my hat's off to them... even though I despise that team.

31042[/snapback]

 

It's always best to ignore facts when you enter into a discussion you don't understand, that way if you indeed have balls you won't be bothered by your royal lineage.

 

The premise of the original post is that without a clutch field goal kicker the Pat's don't win either game, one because they don't make it past Indy last year (5 Vinatieri kicks after Brady chokes in the red zone on 4 of the drives) and that Vinaitieri puts his team over the top with a field goal Lindell couldn't hit in their first try. In order to dispute it you have to make the argument that Lindell can hit a long clutch kick and that he can kick consistently to bail out a red zone offense unable to execute. Over the course of his career he's shown just the opposite. You can kick and cry and scream like a baby but it doesn't change the facts- I'll wait to hear your argument that Lindell defied history by making the big kick in their first game and then punching 5 through against Indy. If you do truly believe he hits all five saves of the failing NE offense against Indy you can take the next step and tell me about him kicking the winner against the Panthers. Otherwise I'll just assume your contribution to the topic is the runaway favorite to win "the stupidest post ever" sweepstakes.

[AKC]

Oh - I'll have the copies of the Raiders/Pats playoff game along with SB 36 and 38 ready for you in a few days.

31072[/snapback]

 

I won't have to go out on a limb here to bet that you responded due to a fan profile that fits you like a wetsuit.

[Rico]

But there is one thing undeniable among message board fans- if you want to see who knows the least about the game of football just check to see if the QB position is the focus of their posting history. If the QB shows up in 70% of their posts you can bank on their observations having nothing to do with the reality of play in the NFL

This has got to be a 1st prize winner in the stupidest post ever sweepstakes.

 

Read This Thread & Try Again

[Movinon]

Oh - I'll have the copies of the Raiders/Pats playoff game along with SB 36 and 38 ready for you in a few days.

31072[/snapback]

You're still here?

[AKC]

   

Read This Thread & Try Again 

31097[/snapback]

 

Well, the wetsuit is only designed for one at a time but I'll be happy to help stuff in any Troll Apologists who want to cuddle in there with him!

[Dawgg]

Your point that quarterback play was not a direct cause of the Bills loss in Week 1 is well taken. However, to say that the Patriots absolutely would not have won a Super Bowl without the clutch kicker is a bit presumptuous on your part. I would flip the argument and say:

 

If it weren't for the superb quarterback play that the Patriots enjoyed with Tom Brady under center, their kicker would not have had the opportunity to kick the aforementioned game winning kicks. After living in Boston for 3 years and watching Tom Brady and the Patriots numerous times, one thing has become apparent: they do what is necessary to win. If a field goal is what they need, they will put their kicker in a position to have a chance.

 

Suppose they were down by 4 in the Super Bowl with 1:30 remaining in the fourth quarter. Who are you to say that Tom Brady wouldn't have engineered a drive culminated by a winning TD? Honestly, after watching how cool he is under pressure and how he delivers time and time again, I wouldn't put it past him.

 

That said, with games so close in today's NFL a reliable kicker is a virtual necessity. Lindell is clearly not one of those.

 

The only time they'll get it right is the 1/33rd of times that a QB, on the average, is actually the player most responible for a win or a loss. But there is one thing undeniable among message board fans- if you want to see who knows the least about the game of football just check to see if the QB position is the focus of their posting history. If the QB shows up in 70% of their posts you can bank on their observations having nothing to do with the reality of play in the NFL.

[Grant]

A QB is only responsible for the outcome of a game 1/33rd of the time?

 

Your saying that the QB is no more important than the Joe Schmoe punt return coverage man (which is your logic, if I'm understanding correctly), even though the QB will touch the football every play and Joe Schmoe will only be important if he A) Really fugs up or B) Does something incredible.

 

AKC, I can't agree with you at all that the quarterback is not one of the most important positions in football. QBs do decide games far more often than you are giving credit.

[Dawgg]

Yes, I also wanted to know where the mathematical derivation was for that 1/33rd figure.

 

A QB is only responsible for the outcome of a game 1/33rd of the time?

 

Your saying that the QB is no more important than the Joe Schmoe punt return coverage man (which is your logic, if I'm understanding correctly), even though the QB will touch the football every play and Joe Schmoe will only be important if he A) Really fugs up or B) Does something incredible.

 

AKC, I can't agree with you at all that the quarterback is not one of the most important positions in football. QBs do decide games far more often than you are giving credit.

31159[/snapback]

[AKC]

Your point that quarterback play was not a direct cause of the Bills loss in Week 1 is well taken.  However, to say that the Patriots absolutely would not have won a Super Bowl without the clutch kicker is a bit presumptuous on your part.  I would flip the argument and say:

 

If it weren't for the superb quarterback play that the Patriots enjoyed with Tom Brady under center, their kicker would not have had the opportunity to kick the aforementioned game winning kicks. 

31147[/snapback]

 

First of all go back to the Pats/Rams Super Bowl- the winning kick with no time is a 48 yarder- it's noit unfair to argue that Scott Norwood would have a better shot at that kick than Rian Lindell.

 

Brady throws his picks in the 4th quarter- in crunch time. He did it this past Indy game in the 4th quarter, in fact his 4th quarter consisted of an INT and a fumble recovered by a Patsy player- 2 crucch time drives, 40 total yards in team offense, an INT, a fumble and a punt? I won't tell anyone else not to get excited aboutt hat type of play in crunch time but it does nothing to excite me.

 

In Indy last year he stalled his offense at the Indy 13, the 7, the 9, the 3 and the 16. A real Red Zone wizard! In fact he ranked 30th in the league last year among QBs in points per red zone play. Even with the streak of NE wins he was 14th in Red Zone TDs among QBs in the NFL. Hardly the stats of a guy "winning games" for his team, more like a guy playing on a winning team.

 

As far as the QB being more important than a gunner on Special Teams or a corner or an offensive guard- no, I don't believe it. Tenn/Buff playoff in '01? (and didn't our QB take over half the fan blame in that one!) Jax game Sunday? My opinion is that fans get obsessed by the position but that it's far less relevant than most fans believe. A football team could be compared to a restuarant- there's a lot of people responsible for your getting a good plate of food- there's the chef who designs it and the cook who prepares it, the server who "called the play" if they were involved in recommending it- do you leave giving the cook all the credit because he is the only one who "touches it every play"?

 

I've seen too many games where a QB is scorched for "losing" while there was a member of the offensive line who single-handedly was responsible for the two INTs that led to the QB's profile being so high in the loss. Or where a SS continually fails on getting his body on the opponents TE that he single-handedly gives the opponent three 3rd down conversions and by math the game itself. The QB comes in and forces one throw in the 4th with time runnning out and takes the full fan blame. Every week of the season, all season long, for the 30+ years I've been watching.

[LabattBlue]

First of all go back to the Pats/Rams Super Bowl- the winning kick with no time is a 48 yarder- it's noit unfair to argue that Scott Norwood would have a better shot at that kick than Rian Lindell.

 

Brady throws his picks in the 4th quarter- in crunch time. He did it this past Indy game in the 4th quarter, in fact his 4th quarter consisted of an INT and a fumble recovered by a Patsy player- 2 crucch time drives, 40 total yards in team offense, an INT, a fumble and a punt? I won't tell anyone else not to get excited aboutt hat type of play in crunch time but it does nothing to excite me.

 

In Indy last year he stalled his offense at the Indy 13, the 7, the 9, the 3 and the 16. A real Red Zone wizard! In fact he ranked 30th in the league last year among QBs in points per red zone play. Even with the streak of NE wins he was 14th in Red Zone TDs among QBs in the NFL. Hardly the stats of a guy "winning games" for his team, more like a guy playing on a winning team.

 

As far as the QB being more important than a gunner on Special Teams or a corner or an offensive guard- no, I don't believe it. Tenn/Buff playoff in '01? (and didn't our QB take over half the fan blame in that one!)  Jax game Sunday? My opinion is that fans get obsessed by the position but that it's far less relevant than most fans believe. A football team could be compared to a restuarant- there's a lot of people responsible for your getting a good plate of food- there's the chef who designs it and the cook who prepares it, the server who "called the play" if they were involved in recommending it- do you leave giving the cook all the credit because he is the only one who "touches it every play"?

 

I've seen too many games where a QB is scorched for "losing" while there was a member of the offensive line who single-handedly was responsible for the two INTs that led to the QB's profile being so high in the loss. Or where a SS continually fails on getting his body on the opponents TE that he single-handedly gives the opponent three 3rd down conversions and by math the game itself. The QB comes in and forces one throw in the 4th with time runnning out and takes the full fan blame. Every week of the season, all season long, for the 30+ years I've been watching.

31267[/snapback]

 

 

We got the better QB when New England traded Bledsoe to us. Brady is a just another run of the mill system QB who sucks & didn't deserve the SB MVP twice. I should know because I'm one of those fans who does nothing but watch the ball!!!!

[Hollywood Donahoe]

This has got to be a 1st prize winner in the stupidest post ever sweepstakes.

 

If Brady wasn't there to get them in position to kick a FG Vinitieri wouldn't have the opportunity....blah, blah, blah.  And if the queen a had balls she'd be king.

EXACTLY.

 

Yes, the Pats would be worse off and would lose a lot more close games if Lindell was their kicker, but that's just because Vinatieri is one of the best clutch kickers in the game (although he was mediocre all last year, particularly in the SB). Along the same line, the Pats would lose a lot more close games if Bledsoe is their QB, but that's only because Brady is the best clutch QB in the game.

[Mike in Syracuse]

EXACTLY.

 

Yes, the Pats would be worse off and would lose a lot more close games if Lindell was their kicker, but that's just because Vinatieri is one of the best clutch kickers in the game (although he was mediocre all last year, particularly in the SB).  Along the same line, the Pats would lose a lot more close games if Bledsoe is their QB, but that's only because Brady is the best clutch QB in the game.

31279[/snapback]

 

Boring yet predictable.

[AKC]

We got the better QB when New England traded Bledsoe to us.  Brady is a just another run of the mill system QB who sucks & didn't deserve the SB MVP twice.  I should know because I'm one of those fans who does nothing but watch the ball!!!!

   

31272[/snapback]

 

You'll need to pass me a line to the hookah so I can enjoy the same hallucination you're having about our QB being mentioned in this string......

[LabattBlue]

You'll need to pass me a line to the hookah so I can enjoy the same hallucination you're having about our QB being mentioned in this string......

31302[/snapback]

Your right I should not have assumed that your repeated attempts at trivializing Brady's role in New Englands success in winning two SB's, had anything to do with the fact that the guy they casted off in favor of Brady is our very own DB. I can't search old posts, so I am just going off memory which isn't always good, but I thought you were one in the past to trumpet that DB is the type of QB that every team should want versus a "system" QB like Brady who deserves no credit whatsoever.

 

If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

[AKC]

Your right I should not have assumed that  your repeated attempts at trivializing Brady's role in New Englands success in winning two SB's, had anything to do with the fact that the guy they casted off in favor of Brady is our very own DB.  I can't search old posts, so I am just going off memory which isn't always good, but I thought you were one in the past to trumpet that DB is the type of QB that every team should want versus a "system" QB like Brady who deserves no credit whatsoever. 

 

If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

31326[/snapback]

 

Your correction is noted and accepted.

 

My personal position on Beldsoe has always been that it's foolish to ignore the fact that he's one of the most productive QBs in history and one of today's most experienced at every level including the playoffs and two Super Bowls plus a Super Bowl ring. I find the suggestions that he's not capable of being the starting QB on a Super Bowl winner to be naive and void of the historical occasions of experienced QBs who have won their Super Bowls at the tail end of careers that were considered up to that point "disappointing". Elway and Plunkett stand out as particularly relevant examples- both facing a vocal majority of fans claiming they took too many sacks and couldn't win the big one yet finishing strong to cap off thier time in the league. Let's hope the system brought in by the Mularkey regime revitalizes the "old timer" running our offense to the benefit of the team. Last week was arguably a step in the right direction, and surely the impetus for some of the scumsucking trolls on this board to begin to try and minimize some of their past positions.