Ralph W. Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=9415256&src=desktop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 The league office involvement always bugs me with the NBA. It just feels like they are to hands on with moves a lot of times... instead of just letting rules govern they let "feel" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) As a huge Celtics fan, I gotta say, I am very disappointed in Doc Rivers. I don't buy, for a second, the sudden spin on this, that getting rid of Doc was actually instigated by the Celtics. In the end, it may turn out to be a good thing for the Celtics, but a first round pick, in 2 years, from a team that should be one of the better in the league is pretty worhless. The NBA draft ain't like the NFL draft. Top 5 picks have some immediate value...after that there isn't much to distinguish from a #6-64. Doc preached "Utumbo" (one heart) with the Celtics...he publically derided Ray Allen when he played out his contract, and chose to pursue rings elsewhere... so now, the leader of that team wants out. Casual NBA fans might forget (but Celtics followers don't) that Doc Rivers was considered one of the worst coaches in the NBA, prior to the arrival of Garnett and Allen. The Celtics stuck with him, when a lot of other teams would not have, and gave him a team to win a ring with. They made him an "elite championship" coach. He waffled at the end of every season about coming back..then, prior to last season he publicaly committed to the Celtics, saying he realized they were about to be in a rebuild mode, and he was committed to that re-build. As a Celtics fan, what Doc Rivers has done here is worse than what Lebron James did to Cleveland, and certainly far worse than what he chastized Ray Allen for doing prior to this season. Doc was the Celtics greatest assestt in a re-build. For irrational reasons, young black NBA players do not gravitate to the Celtics when they are free-agents. Doc's greatest contribution to the franchise was that he was the ultimate recruiter for the franchise. They gave him pretty much everything he wanted...paid him handsomely...so how does he re-pay them? He waffles about wheter he wants to come back. This wasn't "I need to take a year off and re-charge my batteries" move...it was more "I don't want to be here to re-build, i want to win now" move. I am not going to root against Rivers, because what the Celtics did the last 5 years or so, under his leadership kind of re-vived my love of sports...but it is going to kill me to see he, KG and Paul Pierce playing in LA...for the Buffalo Clippers. May feelings may soften by the start of next season, but I find this whole development really depressing. The fact that I loathe the Clippers doesn't help any... I predict that the Clippers owner (one of the worse in the NBA) will do everything in his power to blow their chance at a ring. The league office involvement always bugs me with the NBA. It just feels like they are to hands on with moves a lot of times... instead of just letting rules govern they let "feel" I know what you mean, but I think in this instance, the leauge was right to act. The rule is, you can't trade players for coaches..but you can trade draft picks. All of the talk surrounding Doc to the Clippers revolved around Garnett following him, as if it was a package deal. It is a good rule when you think about it. Essentially, the Celtics are getting a scratch-off lottery ticket in 2 years, for Rivers... if Doc is the coach the Clippers think he is, the pick the Clippers surrender will likely be in the 25-30 range... the eqivalent of a 4th round pick in the NFL. Edited June 24, 2013 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph W. Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Lol "What Doc did here was worse then LeBron" Yea screw these guys for following their dreams and not what the people want. Selfish fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) Lol "What Doc did here was worse then LeBron" Yea screw these guys for following their dreams and not what the people want. Selfish fans. Doc was under contract. LeBron was not. This is more like the college coach who bails on his recruiting class. All one week away from the draft. You obviously missed my point. My fault. I will try to write shorter posts. I have no problem with guys following their dreams, and I wasn't knocking LeBron...quite the opposite. Doc not only broke his word, he broke his contract Edited June 24, 2013 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I know what you mean, but I think in this instance, the leauge was right to act. The rule is, you can't trade players for coaches..but you can trade draft picks. All of the talk surrounding Doc to the Clippers revolved around Garnett following him, as if it was a package deal. It is a good rule when you think about it. Essentially, the Celtics are getting a scratch-off lottery ticket in 2 years, for Rivers... if Doc is the coach the Clippers think he is, the pick the Clippers surrender will likely be in the 25-30 range... the eqivalent of a 4th round pick in the NFL. i understand, but to now seemingly take the stance that no trade between the two teams can happen also seems... overbearing. if they dont want issues like this they should put a rule on the books saying "if a coach is traded to another team, those two teams cant make a deal for X time" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Lol "What Doc did here was worse then LeBron" Yea screw these guys for following their dreams and not what the people want. Selfish fans. the celtics may have preferred this too. who wants to pay doc 7m a year when you are rebuilding. get picks and accelerate the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) the celtics may have preferred this too. who wants to pay doc 7m a year when you are rebuilding. get picks and accelerate the process. Yeah, that is the spin they are trying to put on it now, but I do not buy it for one second...if the Celtics really didn't want to pay Rivers, why would they have singned him to a 5 year extension, acknowledging that they wanted him around for a "re-build", which Doc professed he wanted to see through. They have known for about 2 or 3 years they were running on empty with Garnett-Pierce-Allen. At the time, I recall, Ainge saying that having a guy like Doc Rivers, so popular around the NBA, would be a great assett in accelerating a re-build. I understand player movement, as there is salary cap.. I don't believe that Celtics ownership was really that concerned abot how much they paid Rivers. There is no salary cap hit for coaches. Rivers was their greatest assett. Also, if the Celtics were truly the ones who put this into motion, why did it take so long? Why did they refuse to let two other teams talk to him? Why did Ainge, repeatedly, say that he wanted Rivers on the sidelines for the Celtics next season? The spin is coming out so everyone can save face...like those NFL teams that always get "exactly the guys they wanted" in the NFL draft. And, for Rivers, he heads to LA with his "great guy" image intact. They got almost nothing in return, IMO, because Doc held all the power. If the Celtics wouldn't let him go, he could, as he has hinted at the last 3 years, just sit out a year. I think Rivers wanted out, forced the Celtics hand, and then they had to scramble to get something, anything, in return. i understand, but to now seemingly take the stance that no trade between the two teams can happen also seems... overbearing. if they dont want issues like this they should put a rule on the books saying "if a coach is traded to another team, those two teams cant make a deal for X time" I don't think they said no trade could happen...just that the trade would have to make some sense for both teams, when both movements were measured on their own merits. Celtics trade their highly re-garded head-coach for a scratch-off lottery ticket down the road because they have no other option. I don't know how successful they have been, but the NBA is attempting to, at least give the appearence, that they are trying to keep some parity in the league. Edited June 24, 2013 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Yeah, that is the spin they are trying to put on it now, but I do not buy it for one second...if the Celtics really didn't want to pay Rivers, why would they have singned him to a 5 year extension, acknowledging that they wanted him around for a "re-build", which Doc professed he wanted to see through. They have known for about 2 or 3 years they were running on empty with Garnett-Pierce-Allen. At the time, I recall, Ainge saying that having a guy like Doc Rivers, so popular around the NBA, would be a great assett in accelerating a re-build. I understand player movement, as there is salary cap.. I don't believe that Celtics ownership was really that concerned abot how much they paid Rivers. There is no salary cap hit for coaches. Rivers was their greatest assett. Also, if the Celtics were truly the ones who put this into motion, why did it take so long? Why did they refuse to let two other teams talk to him? Why did Ainge, repeatedly, say that he wanted Rivers on the sidelines for the Celtics next season? The spin is coming out so everyone can save face...like those NFL teams that always get "exactly the guys they wanted" in the NFL draft. They got almost nothing in return, IMO, because Doc held all the power. If the Celtics wouldn't let him go, he could, as he has hinted at the last 3 years, just sit out a year. I think Rivers wanted out, forced the Celtics hand, and then they had to scramble to get something, anything, in return. I don't think they said no trade could happen...just that the trade would have to make some sense for both teams, when both movements were measured on their own merits. Celtics trade their highly re-garded head-coach for a scratch-off lottery ticket down the road because they have no other option. ah, i saw them essentially saying that behind closed doors the two were told that nothing would be approved. if they are willing to be even handed it makes sense, just a matter of their reputation being a bit shaky at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) Lol "What Doc did here was worse then LeBron" Yea screw these guys for following their dreams and not what the people want. Selfish fans. I see this sentiment expressed a lot, whenenver anyone expresses disgust (warrented or not) over player or team actions. But don't these leagues rely on fans to be selfish? If fans weren't selfish, there would be absolutely no reason for leagues to exist. It's not like these people are curing cancer, they are entertainers... fan opinion isn't the ultimate deciding factor in where players or coaches go, but it is a factor. Leauges market to their fans, playing on their team loyalty...they have for decades. It shouldn't be so unreasonable for fans to expect the same from teams, or players. Edited June 24, 2013 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph W. Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 I see this sentiment expressed a lot, whenenver anyone expresses disgust (warrented or not) over player or team actions. Let me ask, the leagues rely on fans to be selfish. If fans weren't selfish, there would be absolutely no reason for leagues to exist. It's not like these people are curing cancer they are entertainers... fan opinion isn't the ultimate deciding factor in where players or coaches go, but it is a valid factor in these kind of things. If their is one thing the best franchises know it's to not listen to the fans. When a team listens to the fans things tend to go downhill. Fans=Fanatics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 ah, i saw them essentially saying that behind closed doors the two were told that nothing would be approved. if they are willing to be even handed it makes sense, just a matter of their reputation being a bit shaky at this point. Maybe so, but I think there is a very great chance that Kevin Garnett, if he plays in 2013-14, does it in a Clippers uniform. If their is one thing the best franchises know it's to not listen to the fans. When a team listens to the fans things tend to go downhill. Fans=Fanatics Yeah, I get that. Why I said it isn't the ultimate factor. But, you are assuming that every move forced by a player, or a coach, is best for the franchise...I don't believe that to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph W. Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) I didn't assume anything.... Anyway, good job for Doc will be nice to see the Clippers actually contending. Even better to see anything Boston related "rebuilding." Edited June 24, 2013 by Ralph W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Yeah, I get that. Why I said it isn't the ultimate factor. But, you are assuming that every move forced by a player, or a coach, is best for the franchise...I don't believe that to be true. yea, i know that was directed towards ralph, but getting to some of my earlier comments... i think this is a case where it works out well for everybody. i dont think the celtics initiated and pressed hard for this outcome from the get go, but i do think once the reality was on the table it became a bit of a "well that does make good sense for everybody" kind of deals. would they have paid him the next few years? surely they wouldve and it wouldnt have been a big deal but when it became a reality that they could save that cash flow AND get compensation it just made sense. gauging everyones intentions when the deal was signed can be tough. situations change, projections dont always play out like you expect, and sometimes even when it sounds good at the start when you are staring in the face you can say "why did i do this again?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) yea, i know that was directed towards ralph, but getting to some of my earlier comments... i think this is a case where it works out well for everybody. i dont think the celtics initiated and pressed hard for this outcome from the get go, but i do think once the reality was on the table it became a bit of a "well that does make good sense for everybody" kind of deals. would they have paid him the next few years? surely they wouldve and it wouldnt have been a big deal but when it became a reality that they could save that cash flow AND get compensation it just made sense. gauging everyones intentions when the deal was signed can be tough. situations change, projections dont always play out like you expect, and sometimes even when it sounds good at the start when you are staring in the face you can say "why did i do this again?" Maybe...being a fan (FAN-ATIC ralph w ) maybe my feelings are a little raw on this, but I think the Celtics come out with crap on this one...they lose the coach that was the cornerstone of their franchise, and they get a mere 1st round pick (likely back 1/3) of the round in two years. I loved the job that Doc did with the Celtics....he got a ring, and honeslty, got more out of them than I thought he would the 4 seasons after...but I think his lack of committment to his word was a big let down to a lot of people. I guess I expect more from a coach than I do players in this area. Rajon Rondo may be the only one happy with this. The amount of money saved is minimal, in regards to the hole it leaves in the foundation of the franchise. Not to be repetitive, but the ideal rebuild, you add good young players through the draft, and develop them to play the kind of ball you expect from them. But, your front office also tries to add young free-agents...it is no secret that most players do not gravitate toward Boston, storied history and all. Doc was the very face of the franchise. Remember that Paul Pierce claims to have cried when he was drafted by the Celtics, Garnett had to be talked into accepting a trade to Boston...it was after talking to Rivers that he relented. I didn't assume anything.... Anyway, good job for Doc will be nice to see the Clippers actually contending. Even better to see anything Boston related "rebuilding." Ah...so you do have a motive! Edited June 24, 2013 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Maybe...being a fan (FAN-ATIC ralph w ) maybe my feelings are a little raw on this, but I think the Celtics come out with crap on this one...they lose the coach that was the cornerstone of their franchise, and they get a mere 1st round pick (likely back 1/3) of the round in two years. I loved the job that Doc did with the Celtics....he got a ring, and honeslty, got more out of them than I thought he would the 4 seasons after...but I think his lack of committment to his word was a big let down to a lot of people. I guess I expect more from a coach than I do players in this area. Rajon Rondo may be the only one happy with this. The amount of money saved is minimal, in regards to the hole it leaves in the foundation of the franchise. Not to be repetitive, but the ideal rebuild, you add good young players through the draft, and develop them to play the kind of ball you expect from them. But, your front office also tries to add young free-agents...it is no secret that most players do not gravitate toward Boston, storied history and all. Doc was the very face of the franchise. Remember that Paul Pierce claims to have cried when he was drafted by the Celtics, Garnett had to be talked into accepting a trade to Boston...it was after talking to Rivers that he relented. no large disagreement here. any names in the pipeline for a replacement? i admittedly dont follow the NBA closely. is this an ideal spot for the franchise? absolutely not. realistically, i think theres a path to get behind for "couldve been worse" though and sometimes at a major crossroads, better than some alternatives is decent. they get some young talent, they get some cash (i know, not a ton but its got a value to an owner even if its outside the cap) and they get to start putting those guys in the "new system" sooner rather than later. i think we look at it similarly still from a purely nuts and bolts perspective, but i get the intangible factor may prove difficult to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Doc seemed (to me) to be a really good gameday coach in recent years and I think this is a big loss for the C's. I also concur that a first round pick in the NBA (late first round) is typically not a high yield asset. Seems like he opted for greener pastures and the C's got the minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 no large disagreement here. any names in the pipeline for a replacement? i admittedly dont follow the NBA closely. is this an ideal spot for the franchise? absolutely not. realistically, i think theres a path to get behind for "couldve been worse" though and sometimes at a major crossroads, better than some alternatives is decent. they get some young talent, they get some cash (i know, not a ton but its got a value to an owner even if its outside the cap) and they get to start putting those guys in the "new system" sooner rather than later. i think we look at it similarly still from a purely nuts and bolts perspective, but i get the intangible factor may prove difficult to replace. According to Ainge, in his press conference yesterday, he said he was being "very honest" when he says that they hadn't given any serious thought to a replcement, because, up untiil Monday, he thought there was no way a deal was going to be done, and Doc would be back. Ainge was saying all the PC things, and was insistent that there was no feeling of betrayal from him, or ownership...but you could tell he was genuinely disappointed. The owners only reference to that was "we had kind of developed a 12 year plan with this coach, to rebuild...but it took a detour after 9". The owner, and Ainge, also dispelled the popular notion being spewed out all over on ESPN, that this was the Celtics choice..it was all Doc. Rivers himself even said that he could just feel it was time for a change. I think Ainge knows that Boston fans, in all sports, are notoriously bitter when they perceive that they are being slighted...I think he was doing a lot of spin control, so it isn't ugly when the Clippers come to TD next season. Oh well..that is sports...or moreover, that is big business. I have come off my legde a little since the other day, I don't hate Doc, but man, I am really disappointed with this development..hard enough to see great players get old and fade away...but it realy hurts when a guy who has so much to offer (not to mention had 3 years left on a deal) chooses to walk away from your team. It may sound corny, but rooting for the Bills and Sabres my whole life, as much as I love both teams, I was starting to forget how much fun sports can be when you have a good team to root for...it was kind of feeling like more of a chore. I have been a Celtics fan since the Braves left Buffalo, and they have given me lots of joy over the last 35 years or so...but even they had tailed off miserably after the late 80's. When they added Garnett and Allen in the summer of 2007, it was a great ride..and Rivers was a big part of that. Sure, they only won one championship, but I just loved the character of those teams...I was really proud to root for them... they had an "old school" toughness and resovle that seems to be missing in sports, to a large degree, these days. They weren't always the most talented team, they might not have even been the better "team" every night..but man, they played their asses off more often than not and were never afraid of the big moments. So, for that, I give Doc a lot of credit... I have a weird feeling, Danny Ainge will end up coaching the C's next year...there have been rumours about Brian Shaw (hired by the Nuggets, finally!) and Vinny Del Negro... I really want no part of Vinny... not crazy about the idea of Ainge either, but I think he has done a credible job as a GM, and since he is the architect of the team, let him see, first hand, what he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) Worst week ever for a city sports wise? Ray Allen hits the big 3 and gets a ring. Doc gone. Bruins lose the cup despite a lead with 90 seconds left Hernandez murder Won't even mention the marathon if you widen the net for time. Edited June 27, 2013 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Worst week ever for a city sports wise? Ray Allen hits the big 3 and gets a ring. Doc gone. Bruins lose the cup despite a lead with 90 seconds left Hernandez murder Won't even mention the marathon if you widen the net for time. Although I am a huge Celtics fan, I hate all of the other Boston sports teams... so I don't mind it one bit! New England sports fans had a great decade or so, time to pay the fiddler!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts