Captain America Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 The Muslims need to take heed soon. Plan A appears to be going into terrorist/repressed countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq and providing people the room they need to promote freedom and some semblence of democracy. If these countries fail to take advantage of the opportunity granted them, how much longer will it be until America gives Russia free reign to wipe out of the Chechans, Israelis a free pass to bomb the heck out of the Palestinians, and perhaps we justify bombing the heck out of the Syrians and Iranians with much less regard to civilian casualties and winning hearts and minds. 15309[/snapback] Be careful there are many Muslim lovers on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Be careful there are many Muslim lovers on this board. 15330[/snapback] *YAWN* I actually agreed with him, BTW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 The Muslims need to take heed soon. Plan A appears to be going into terrorist/repressed countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq and providing people the room they need to promote freedom and some semblence of democracy. If these countries fail to take advantage of the opportunity granted them, how much longer will it be until America gives Russia free reign to wipe out of the Chechans, Israelis a free pass to bomb the heck out of the Palestinians, and perhaps we justify bombing the heck out of the Syrians and Iranians with much less regard to civilian casualties and winning hearts and minds. 15309[/snapback] WWIII. Sounds like a good idea, make the ENTIRE Arab world feel victimized and bring them all together under the Al Qaeda banner. This strategy would only fulfill every ultra right-winger's belief that all Muslims are terrorists. If Nuke'em all is Plan B, we are in some serious deep stevestojan. Lord knows, all those civilians deserve it and are all capable of killing us just because they're Muslims. Do you never think about, how, by accident of birth, you are American? That it could just as easily be you on the receiving end of some collateral damage? It's great how we can magically grant and take away freedom in this world, not just in our own country, especially if you're brown and worship differently. Please explain what is conservative about this to me. My hands are in the air. A note on the Chechens: their cause has attracted some bad people because they were denied the sovereignty that was given to just about every other province of Russia that asked for it. It's become a cause celebre for Al Qaeda, another opportunity for them to claim that Muslims are being victimized, another chance for them to hurt innocent people. There is blood on Putin's hands there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 The Muslims need to take heed soon. Plan A appears to be going into terrorist/repressed countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq and providing people the room they need to promote freedom and some semblence of democracy. If these countries fail to take advantage of the opportunity granted them, how much longer will it be until America gives Russia free reign to wipe out of the Chechans, Israelis a free pass to bomb the heck out of the Palestinians, and perhaps we justify bombing the heck out of the Syrians and Iranians with much less regard to civilian casualties and winning hearts and minds. 15309[/snapback] Right, like the Russians and Israelis are going "easy" on the Chechens and Palestinians at the moment. And why on earth should what happens in Afghanistan and Iraq make so much difference to stateless Chechens and Palestinians? Do you expect them to say "well, our circumstances haven't improved, but Afghanistan and Iraq are democracies so that's alright then" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich in Ohio Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Nice people, these...Why does anyone still not understand what this "religion" is all about? [Hint: It aint PEACE!] 14143[/snapback] Can you tell me that last time that a christian, jewish, or non-islamic relisious group did any of the following: 1) flew airplanes full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people. 2) cut of the heads of innocent people. 3) walked on to a bus full of innocent people and blew themselves up 4) walked into a crowded resturant and blew themsleves up 5) taken a school full of children hostage and prepared to blow them selves and the children up. 6) drove a car full of explosives into a crowd full of women and children and blown themselves up. Just looking for an example or two. Because as I see it, the religion of islam is nothing more then a hate based group of people who are still too ignorant to move out of the dark ages. Yes you have read me correctly, until the so called normal people who call this religion thier own, call for a stop to this brutal actions undertaken by those who call themselves believers, they are equaly responsible. Period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Can you tell me that last time that a christian, jewish, or non-islamic relisious group did any of the following: 1) flew airplanes full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people. 2) cut of the heads of innocent people. 3) walked on to a bus full of innocent people and blew themselves up 4) walked into a crowded resturant and blew themsleves up 5) taken a school full of children hostage and prepared to blow them selves and the children up. 6) drove a car full of explosives into a crowd full of women and children and blown themselves up. Just looking for an example or two. Because as I see it, the religion of islam is nothing more then a hate based group of people who are still too ignorant to move out of the dark ages. Yes you have read me correctly, until the so called normal people who call this religion thier own, call for a stop to this brutal actions undertaken by those who call themselves believers, they are equaly responsible. Period! 15526[/snapback] OK, you asked for it!!! HERE WE GO: Defenestration of Prague St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre Spanish Inquisition Massacre of Muslims during the Crusades by the crusaders AFTER they surrendered (1099 AND 1191) Complete and utter pogram of Huguenot persecution during the French Wars of religion English persecution of French Catholics during the English occupation of what is now Western France The Indian Wars in America, forcing Christianity on the natives Frankish Gaul forcing Christianity on the Saxons Russian Orthodox Christians killing Jews during the reign of the Tsars The extermination of the Hussites by Catholics The Troubles in Ireland NEED I CONTINUE? (BTW, weapons are weapons, whether bomb, or Greek fire, or swords, or arrows, or liquid metal, or oil, etc, etc). No. History is on my side. PLEASE don't make me continue.. I don't have all day here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAL Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Can you tell me that last time that a christian, jewish, or non-islamic relisious group did any of the following: 1) flew airplanes full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people. 2) cut of the heads of innocent people. 3) walked on to a bus full of innocent people and blew themselves up 4) walked into a crowded resturant and blew themsleves up 5) taken a school full of children hostage and prepared to blow them selves and the children up. 6) drove a car full of explosives into a crowd full of women and children and blown themselves up. Just looking for an example or two. Because as I see it, the religion of islam is nothing more then a hate based group of people who are still too ignorant to move out of the dark ages. Yes you have read me correctly, until the so called normal people who call this religion thier own, call for a stop to this brutal actions undertaken by those who call themselves believers, they are equaly responsible. Period! 15526[/snapback] Ever hear of Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols? David Koresch sp? Jim Jones? Eirc Rudolph? Granted some of these guys were too cowardly to actually kill themselves, but you get my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Can you tell me that last time that a christian, jewish, or non-islamic relisious group did any of the following: 1) flew airplanes full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people. 2) cut of the heads of innocent people. 3) walked on to a bus full of innocent people and blew themselves up 4) walked into a crowded resturant and blew themsleves up 5) taken a school full of children hostage and prepared to blow them selves and the children up. 6) drove a car full of explosives into a crowd full of women and children and blown themselves up. Just looking for an example or two. Because as I see it, the religion of islam is nothing more then a hate based group of people who are still too ignorant to move out of the dark ages. Yes you have read me correctly, until the so called normal people who call this religion thier own, call for a stop to this brutal actions undertaken by those who call themselves believers, they are equaly responsible. Period! 15526[/snapback] There are numerous examples of innocent people being blown up by terrorists in both Britain and Ireland during the troubles - just do a search for "Birmingham pub bombings". True, the perpertrators didn't actually blow themselves up but I hardly think that makes them morally superior. To me the crime of blowing up innocent people is equally repugnant whether or not the terrorist blows themselves up in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich in Ohio Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 OK, you asked for it!!! HERE WE GO: Defenestration of Prague St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre Spanish Inquisition Massacre of Muslims during the Crusades by the crusaders AFTER they surrendered (1099 AND 1191) Complete and utter pogram of Huguenot persecution during the French Wars of religion English persecution of French Catholics during the English occupation of what is now Western France The Indian Wars in America, forcing Christianity on the natives Frankish Gaul forcing Christianity on the Saxons Russian Orthodox Christians killing Jews during the reign of the Tsars The extermination of the Hussites by Catholics The Troubles in Ireland NEED I CONTINUE? (BTW, weapons are weapons, whether bomb, or Greek fire, or swords, or arrows, or liquid metal, or oil, etc, etc). No. History is on my side. PLEASE don't make me continue.. I don't have all day here 15531[/snapback] Well I thought i made it pretty clear that I was talking about some recent history, and a more civilized world overall. This is the 21st century after all and not the dark ages. can't remember the last time I saw any of the crusaders flying airplanes. My point is, the rest of the world has moved forward. Religions today (with the excepton of islam) would not allow this kind of murder to continue in it's name. Again before preaching to me please pay attention to my point. Which is, until the normal people in the islam religion hold these bastards responsible, nothing will change. They are acting as enablers by virtue of thier continued silence. These so called highly regarded clerics say little or nothing about the actions of the terrorists who continue to do these in human deeds in the name of islam. Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich in Ohio Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 WWIII. Sounds like a good idea, make the ENTIRE Arab world feel victimized and bring them all together under the Al Qaeda banner. This strategy would only fulfill every ultra right-winger's belief that all Muslims are terrorists. If Nuke'em all is Plan B, we are in some serious deep stevestojan. Lord knows, all those civilians deserve it and are all capable of killing us just because they're Muslims. Do you never think about, how, by accident of birth, you are American? That it could just as easily be you on the receiving end of some collateral damage? It's great how we can magically grant and take away freedom in this world, not just in our own country, especially if you're brown and worship differently. Please explain what is conservative about this to me. My hands are in the air. A note on the Chechens: their cause has attracted some bad people because they were denied the sovereignty that was given to just about every other province of Russia that asked for it. It's become a cause celebre for Al Qaeda, another opportunity for them to claim that Muslims are being victimized, another chance for them to hurt innocent people. There is blood on Putin's hands there. 15473[/snapback] tell me, is the so called blood on Putins hands as you put it from the children being held hostage inside that school? I think not. this is a terrorist act, plain and simple. These animals have no regard for anything that normal people consider to be sacred. they are insane, and only thier elimination will end thier actions. Unfortunately these nuts have nevered moved forward out of the 15th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Well I thought i made it pretty clear that I was talking about some recent history, and a more civilized world overall. This is the 21st century after all and not the dark ages. can't remember the last time I saw any of the crusaders flying airplanes. My point is, the rest of the world has moved forward. Religions today (with the excepton of islam) would not allow this kind of murder to continue in it's name. Again before preaching to me please pay attention to my point. Which is, until the normal people in the islam religion hold these bastards responsible, nothing will change. They are acting as enablers by virtue of thier continued silence. These so called highly regarded clerics say little or nothing about the actions of the terrorists who continue to do these in human deeds in the name of islam. Get it? 15581[/snapback] OK, but you did not SPECIFY when you posted, so how was I to know? Christianity and Judaism are OLDER than Islam. The governments of Christian countries have been in turmoil for HUNDREDS of years, doing the most UNSPEAKABLE things to each other, up until VERY recently. No, maybe not the 21st century, but 50 years ago. The idea that Islam hasn't 'gotten out of the dark ages' is an unfair assessment. They haven't BEEN through the type of changes that Europe and America has been through yet. They are just beginning to form their own ideas on self-government. Look at most of their governments... they are ruled by monarchy, dictatorship, or theocracy! When was the last time a European country was ruled by ANY of those, truly? Not that long ago... When dealing with governments that are not republican, partially socialist, or democratic in nature, they tend to be harsher, more authoritarian, and use brutality to keep their people down, to enact their way if you will. These 'states' are very young by our standards... Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain DIDN'T EXIST 100 years ago!!! You can't possibly expect them to get it right the first time... Time and experience will eventually show them what works and what does not work. Look at Africa! They are a bloody mess, and we all know why. Repressive, greedy, corrupt governments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Well I thought i made it pretty clear that I was talking about some recent history, and a more civilized world overall. This is the 21st century after all and not the dark ages. can't remember the last time I saw any of the crusaders flying airplanes. My point is, the rest of the world has moved forward. Religions today (with the excepton of islam) would not allow this kind of murder to continue in it's name. Again before preaching to me please pay attention to my point. Which is, until the normal people in the islam religion hold these bastards responsible, nothing will change. They are acting as enablers by virtue of thier continued silence. These so called highly regarded clerics say little or nothing about the actions of the terrorists who continue to do these in human deeds in the name of islam. Get it? 15581[/snapback] And what of the example I quoted - which is only a couple or so decades ago. Ever heard of the Tamil Tigers? They are a Hindu separatist movement in Sri Lanka and have been responsible for appalling massacres in the last couple of decades. And what of the violence between Sikhs and Hindus in India (I'll leave out Hindu/Muslim violence since you'll undoubtedly assume that it must be all the fault of the muslims). Maybe you should do a bit more research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 And what of the example I quoted - which is only a couple or so decades ago. Ever heard of the Tamil Tigers? They are a Hindu separatist movement in Sri Lanka and have been responsible for appalling massacres in the last couple of decades. And what of the violence between Sikhs and Hindus in India (I'll leave out Hindu/Muslim violence since you'll undoubtedly assume that it must be all the fault of the muslims). Maybe you should do a bit more research. 15643[/snapback] And the Hutu's - largely Roman Catholic - genocidal campaign against the Tutsis in Rwanda not even ten years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman's Helmet Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Chicot, resident terrorist apologist checkin in. When you take children hostage and threaten to kill them, no cause can justify that. Perhaps if the hardcore muslim world spent more time educating its young citizens (men AND women) instead of indoctrinating them in 100% Islam and nothing else so that when they enter adulthood they have no marketable skills to speak of and cannot get jobs they then revert to their teachings that the West and Israel are the ones responsible for their quagmire in life, when it is in fact their own culture that has failed them in its teachings. Hence with no work, no money and no hope, its easy to strap on a vest full of TNT and head to the nearest Jew/Westerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 tell me, is the so called blood on Putins hands as you put it from the children being held hostage inside that school? I think not. this is a terrorist act, plain and simple. These animals have no regard for anything that normal people consider to be sacred. they are insane, and only thier elimination will end thier actions. Unfortunately these nuts have nevered moved forward out of the 15th century. 15590[/snapback] You're right, they haven't. But the Chechen rebels were at one time not part of Al Qaeda's cause. Putin opened the door for Al Qaeda by denying Chechens sovereignty, and like I said, Al Qaeda has made Chechnya its cause. Chechen rebels are at fault for accepting Al Qaeda's help, and none of this makes what AQ is doing right. They are dead wrong. But it cannot be argued that there is no cause to that effect. If Putin granted Chechnya its wish for sovereignty, or even just allowed the Chechens a place at the table to discuss the issue, Al Qaeda doesn't even set foot in its borders because there is no cause. Instead he declared the Chechens to be terrorists and, well, what do you know, in come the terrorists to help them out and champion their cause. I am not saying anyone should kowtow to terrorists. Far from it. But we should be just as worried about attacking the roots of Islamic extremism -- that is really what this war is about, terror is just a means to that end -- as we are about defeating more terrorists. And the roots of (Islamic) extremism lie in poverty, marginalization, and suppression of opposition by those in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Chicot, resident terrorist apologist checkin in. When you take children hostage and threaten to kill them, no cause can justify that. Perhaps if the hardcore muslim world spent more time educating its young citizens (men AND women) instead of indoctrinating them in 100% Islam and nothing else so that when they enter adulthood they have no marketable skills to speak of and cannot get jobs they then revert to their teachings that the West and Israel are the ones responsible for their quagmire in life, when it is in fact their own culture that has failed them in its teachings. Hence with no work, no money and no hope, its easy to strap on a vest full of TNT and head to the nearest Jew/Westerner. 15699[/snapback] Cheap shot. I have never justified the killing of innocent civilians, whatever the cause. Richio asked for examples, I gave them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Chicot, resident terrorist apologist checkin in. When you take children hostage and threaten to kill them, no cause can justify that. Perhaps if the hardcore muslim world spent more time educating its young citizens (men AND women) instead of indoctrinating them in 100% Islam and nothing else so that when they enter adulthood they have no marketable skills to speak of and cannot get jobs they then revert to their teachings that the West and Israel are the ones responsible for their quagmire in life, when it is in fact their own culture that has failed them in its teachings. Hence with no work, no money and no hope, its easy to strap on a vest full of TNT and head to the nearest Jew/Westerner. 15699[/snapback] Maybe if Israel would stop targeting innocent Palestinians on their crusade for leadership, then they'd actually be safer. It's all tit for tat; Israel is by NO MEANS the innocent victim of bloodthirsty Palestinians. They are BOTH inflexible, stubborn, hardcore murderers who want the land and power so bad, they'll end up exterminating each other for their pieces of silver. Someone's gotta step in and tell em BOTH to stop this madness. SOON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Chicot, resident terrorist apologist checkin in. When you take children hostage and threaten to kill them, no cause can justify that. Perhaps if the hardcore muslim world spent more time educating its young citizens (men AND women) instead of indoctrinating them in 100% Islam and nothing else so that when they enter adulthood they have no marketable skills to speak of and cannot get jobs they then revert to their teachings that the West and Israel are the ones responsible for their quagmire in life, when it is in fact their own culture that has failed them in its teachings. Hence with no work, no money and no hope, its easy to strap on a vest full of TNT and head to the nearest Jew/Westerner. 15699[/snapback] I wish there were a good way that we could help support the kind of education efforts you speak of while making sure that the money and support got to the right people, and without the Muslim nations feeling like we're lording it over them with our supreme knowledge. This is the problem of colonialism. We want to help build productive, increasingly democratic societies, but it is tough to do this as an outside, foreign presence and not be seen as an infiltrating force that is destructive to the culture and community of those we are helping (ie we're trying to Westernize them). If Muslim communities here in the U.S. could do more to support these kinds of efforts and accentuate the positives of the life ahead of them, I think it would go a long way. This is so delicate. And we need most to give people that hope. I think when Bush offers these kinds of ideals, he is saying the right thing. I just don't agree with his means to that end. I sometimes wonder if there IS a means to that end. But I just can't believe that the situation is hopeless, Islam is inherently evil, and we can't do anything to help. We need real ideas, fresh ones, to face this situation. If we can get there, it will mean untold good to this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 The Muslims need to take heed soon. Plan A appears to be going into terrorist/repressed countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq and providing people the room they need to promote freedom and some semblence of democracy. If these countries fail to take advantage of the opportunity granted them, how much longer will it be until America gives Russia free reign to wipe out of the Chechans, Israelis a free pass to bomb the heck out of the Palestinians, and perhaps we justify bombing the heck out of the Syrians and Iranians with much less regard to civilian casualties and winning hearts and minds. 15309[/snapback] Sounds like a Plan to me, The Romans obviously did SOMETHING right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCow Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 Be careful there are many Muslim lovers on this board. 15330[/snapback] Yep, them an' all 'em N lovers, too - eh, Boomer? Can't be too careful 'round here. Rumor has it there's some of them money changers as well, ya know what I mean. Keep yer eyes open, thems no good peoples is everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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