Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl

[Alphadawg7]

This is actually a very good point.

 

I read Bill Walsh's book Building a Champion many moons ago. In it, he talks about how the 49ers gradually scripted a large bulk of the plays to start the game, before identifying key areas of weakness to attack and build on later on.

 

Those plays scripted would be in the 25-30 range, therefore what Montana did to start most games was follow the plan. Which would have less to do with Montana and more to do with Walsh.

 

Great point, Philster!

 

Just so you know, many coaches do this, hell my high school coach and college coaches both did this. This is very common at every level of play and it isnt why the 49ers were so succesful. It cracks me up how so many people down play Montana, who quite frankly is one of the 3 best QB's ever and is in every discussion of who is #1 all time. Most people who do this never really watched him play either because they were young, were not born yet, or didnt live on the West Coast and see him regularly.

 

He was the real deal, not some product of a gameplan or a great coach. He was highly intelligent out there, had incredible field vision, and had incredible timing and accuracy...that is NOT because of some game plan...the guy was just that good...

[DrFishfinder]

I think this points to a problem which I think the Bills have had under Schonert and actually OCs back to Kragthorpe that I do not think that the Bills route designs within their offense are very good at getting a lot of separation between the receiver and the defenders. My sense is that given the raw speed that the Bills had in their WR crew (Evans and Parrish- along with the not world class but still must be respected downfield abilities of TO) the Bills should have commanded a lot more respect from defenders than they got and thus created more room for RAC.

 

My sense was that the route problems we had were:

 

1. Pretty predictable play calling which allowed defenders to crowd the line rather than hang back to see what the Bills were going to do.

2. We needed to come closer to breaking the rules setting pick plays and running into defenders trying to cover our receivers. A couple of nasty licks would force defenders to put their heads on a swivel watching out for a hit rather than simply covering our man tightly. Yeah we would get penalized from time to time for setting picks but this is a worthwhile price to pay.

3. We needed to run more slant pattens

4. The offense needs to use the RBs as receivers more.

 

The fact we did not do these things well ended up with our receivers tackled quickly after a reception.

Agreed on all points. The dark side of me really likes #2.

[grelit]

Did you read the bullet points. If you are in the Buffalo region, Edwards has been strongly criticized for being a checkdown quarterback even when his completion percentages are high.

 

Edwards is in no way comparable to Montana but the concept of checking down is not such a terrible thing because some of the best qbs have had to do that and have been successful.

 

The Bills need to pick a qb sooner than later.

 

Trent checks down on every play, Montana did not....good lord did I just say those names in the same sentence....? Never again...

[Alphadawg7]

Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown".

 

Some reasons to name Edwards the starter now:

 

My responses to this non sense are below in bold...

 

1. He has more experience than the other quarterbacks: So what, that doesnt make him the better QB...just makes him older. He has actually regressed with his experience, not grown from it.

 

2. A new offensive system requires more reps and allows timing with the receivers: Something that Trent is TERRIBLE at...seriously, his timing is very poor and he doesnt have the arm strength to make up for it.

 

3. He is more accurate than the other three: He is not an accurate QB...he looks like it to stat checkers because he checks down and makes so many meaningless short throws. But on throws longer than 10 yards he is not very accurate, doesnt hit the recievers in stride, and throws a terrible deep ball.

 

4. Takes away the tension surrounding the team regarding this question of who will start. (supplement) Huh? How does this even make sense as any QB named the starter does the same thing...

 

5. He can scramble, has some quickness and appears stronger. He has terrible pocket presence, can't feel the pressure, takes too many sacks, and doesn't slide to buy more time...and he is fragile...

 

6. There aren't enough preseason games to give valid assessments. Thats what the whole off season is for

 

7. Being a checkdown qb was a large piece of the west coast offense. No its not...throwing precise quick stirke passes is part of the west coast offense, not checking down to a 1 yard throw on 3rd and 10 because you are afraid to throw down field. You have no idea what the west coast offense is...its not "checking down" its quick pre planned strike passes on the run.

 

8. If its Fitz or Edwards, I go with Edwards and neither Brown nor Brohm are ready. How can you make that call? Brown I get, but you have no idea if Brohm is ready, especially given how he has looked good thus far. Fitz doesnt have enough talent, and Edwards lacks vastly in all mental aspects of the game.

[Alphadawg7]

For the record...so many people on here just dont have a clue to what the West Coast Offense is. This thread is laughable as they refer to that offense as a "check down" offense and that couldnt be further from the truth.

 

The west coast offense was designed for quick striking precise routes, not an offense where you just sit back and dump it off to some short route as the pressure comes. Each route is vastly important to free up the actual route of who the pass is primarliy inteded for. It is not an offense reliant on dumping off short passes when other things are not open. Because of the nature of the offense there are opportunities to dump off, but that is not heart of that offense. Just because Trentative checks down a lot does not make him a good fit for a west coast offense, in fact, its just the opposite.

 

To excel as a west coast offense, your QB needs to be able to do the following:

 

1. Make quick reads

2. Have great timing

3. Understand where the reciever will be when he is OPEN in the defense and throw to those spots, not wait for the WR to get open. This means being able to read defenses and sense the pressure.

4. Needs to be able to progress through his reads quickly if the hot route is taken away

5. Needs to be a threat in the medium and long ball game to keep the defense honest and free up the quick strikes.

 

All of these things above are things that Trent vastly struggles with and has been incredible poor at. Just because he tends to throw short does not make him a ideal candidate for the West Coast Offense. It makes him a candidate for the bench until he can greatly improve in those areas above.

[Guest dog14787]

Joe Montana played for some of the best coaches that ever coached in the NFL, with some of the best WR's/ players that ever played in the NFL and Montana played behind experienced, veteran O-linemen.

 

Lets compare TE's supporting cast so far in his career and then tell me how any fair or logical comparison of the two QB's is even possible up to this point.

 

If someone wants to evaluate TE's Quarterbacking capabilities properly, then one needs to evaluate his supporting cast properly and until you can call his supporting cast at the very least average which it hasn't been then its impossible to gauge the QB in my opinion.

[grelit]

Joe Montana played for some of the best coaches that ever coached in the NFL, with some of the best WR's/ players that ever played in the NFL and Montana played behind experienced, veteran O-linemen.

 

Lets compare TE's supporting cast so far in his career and then tell me how any fair or logical comparison of the two QB's is even possible up to this point.

 

If someone wants to evaluate TE's Quarterbacking capabilities properly, then one needs to evaluate his supporting cast properly and until you can call his supporting cast at the very least average which it hasn't been then its impossible to gauge the QB in my opinion.

 

Did you ever happened to think that Joe Montana made those players and coaches around him better??? I mean the 49ers were a horrible team when Montana took over, he did not just walk into perfect surroundings. People are really starting to embarrass themselves with this comparison. Lets do our homework on the state of the 49ers franchise when Montana was a rookie....

 

Thanks

[The_Philster]

Joe Montana played for some of the best coaches that ever coached in the NFL, with some of the best WR's/ players that ever played in the NFL and Montana played behind experienced, veteran O-linemen.

 

Lets compare TE's supporting cast so far in his career and then tell me how any fair or logical comparison of the two QB's is even possible up to this point.

 

If someone wants to evaluate TE's Quarterbacking capabilities properly, then one needs to evaluate his supporting cast properly and until you can call his supporting cast at the very least average or above which it hasn't been then its impossible to gauge your QB in my opinion.

While it's true that a QB's success rests partly on his supporting cast (football IS the ultimate team game, after all), it doesn't answer why Trent stares down his receivers so much, something Montana couldn't be accused of doing. You don't notice it as well from TV and I'm not sure how well you notice it from the sidelines, but he's had a habit of looking over at the WR the play is designed to go to before the snap...and he keeps watching that WR all the way through his pass route until he throws the ball. It's a wonder he hasn't thrown more interceptions than he has but the fact that he's thrown 25 picks as opposed to 24 TDs can be traced back to this problem.

Let me take you back...MNF vs Dallas

3rd and 8 from the Dallas 11 6:21 left in the game..Trent had his head pointed directly at Lee Evans before the snap and he followed him throughout his pass route all the way until Terence Newman picked off the pass.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007100800/2...post-playbyplay

 

Admittedly, he doesn't do it that bad on every play but he does it often enough that it's a major issue. During the Open Practice a few weeks ago, I sat in my seat as opposed to along the sideline primarily to see if Trent was still doing it...and if he had heat vision, he would've set Roscoe Parrish on fire the way he was staring him down. If a fan can see it from the endzone, you know NFL DB's are going to keep seeing it.

[Guest dog14787]

While it's true that a QB's success rests partly on his supporting cast (football IS the ultimate team game, after all), it doesn't answer why Trent stares down his receivers so much, something Montana couldn't be accused of doing. You don't notice it as well from TV and I'm not sure how well you notice it from the sidelines, but he's had a habit of looking over at the WR the play is designed to go to before the snap...and he keeps watching that WR all the way through his pass route until he throws the ball. It's a wonder he hasn't thrown more interceptions than he has but the fact that he's thrown 25 picks as opposed to 24 TDs can be traced back to this problem.

Let me take you back...MNF vs Dallas

3rd and 8 from the Dallas 11 6:21 left in the game..Trent had his head pointed directly at Lee Evans before the snap and he followed him throughout his pass route all the way until Terence Newman picked off the pass.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007100800/2...post-playbyplay

 

Admittedly, he doesn't do it that bad on every play but he does it often enough that it's a major issue. During the Open Practice a few weeks ago, I sat in my seat as opposed to along the sideline primarily to see if Trent was still doing it...and if he had heat vision, he would've set Roscoe Parrish on fire the way he was staring him down. If a fan can see it from the endzone, you know NFL DB's are going to keep seeing it.

 

Something a veteran QB normally does well, (disguise his intentions)

 

It takes knowing an offense, O-linemen and WR's like the back of your hand to become a master at fooling defenses and that only comes with practice in the same offense with the same players over a period of time in my opinion.

 

I trust your observations are correct, but honestly, under the circumstances it doesn't surprise me because there's been very little continuity in the Bills offense for years.

[The_Philster]

Something a veteran QB normally does well, (disguise his intentions)

 

It takes knowing an offense, O-linemen and WR's like the back of your hand to become a master at fooling defenses and that only comes with practice in the same offense with the same players over a period of time in my opinion.

One would think so...except for one thing....and if you recorded the Atlanta game, you'll see what I mean...Brian Brohm was looking off safeties like a veteran would do and not staring down his receivers...that's according to the CBS TV analyst working the game...he pointed that out early in the game and my ears perked up at that

[CarolinaBill]

One would think so...except for one thing....and if you recorded the Atlanta game, you'll see what I mean...Brian Brohm was looking off safeties like a veteran would do and not staring down his receivers...that's according to the CBS TV analyst working the game...he pointed that out early in the game and my ears perked up at that

glad i wasnt the only one who saw that, also, Brohm seems to drive the ball better on the intermediate routes and has better "zip" on his passes.

 

again, I am really holding out hope that Brohm wins this job in TC this summer, cause i think he has the most to offer the team.

[ConradDobler]

Something a veteran QB normally does well, (disguise his intentions)

 

It takes knowing an offense, O-linemen and WR's like the back of your hand to become a master at fooling defenses and that only comes with practice in the same offense with the same players over a period of time in my opinion.

 

I trust your observations are correct, but honestly, under the circumstances it doesn't surprise me because there's been very little continuity in the Bills offense for years.

 

 

No, you are a Trent fanboy.

Fanboys are usually not very objective.

Please try to be more objective, and less of a fanboy.

[Guest dog14787]

One would think so...except for one thing....and if you recorded the Atlanta game, you'll see what I mean...Brian Brohm was looking off safeties like a veteran would do and not staring down his receivers...that's according to the CBS TV analyst working the game...he pointed that out early in the game and my ears perked up at that

 

 

Hard to tell much by one game and with what was most likely a very basic and well scripted gameplan.

 

With that being said, Brian Brohm seems to have a good feel for the game, I like Brohm and if TE doesn't get the start I prefer Brohm or Fitz because Brohm has a bigger upside in my opinion.

[Guest dog14787]

No, you are a Trent fanboy.

Fanboys are usually not very objective.

Please try to be more objective, and less of a fanboy.

 

 

Guilty as charged Sir ConradDobler,

 

Cheers to Captain Checkdown/Glove wearing Mary

[theranter]

JOE MONTANA IS GAY...

 

GO BILLS!

[ConradDobler]

Guilty as charged Sir ConradDobler,

 

Cheers to Captain Checkdown/Glove wearing Mary

 

No problem, Dog! We're on opposite sides of the fence, but still Bills fans. I'd have a beer (or 10) with you anytime.

 

(Edit) Can we invite DarthIce, too?

[Logical Reasoning]

For the record...so many people on here just dont have a clue to what the West Coast Offense is. This thread is laughable as they refer to that offense as a "check down" offense and that couldnt be further from the truth.

 

The west coast offense was designed for quick striking precise routes, not an offense where you just sit back and dump it off to some short route as the pressure comes. Each route is vastly important to free up the actual route of who the pass is primarliy inteded for. It is not an offense reliant on dumping off short passes when other things are not open. Because of the nature of the offense there are opportunities to dump off, but that is not heart of that offense. Just because Trentative checks down a lot does not make him a good fit for a west coast offense, in fact, its just the opposite.

 

To excel as a west coast offense, your QB needs to be able to do the following:

 

1. Make quick reads

2. Have great timing

3. Understand where the reciever will be when he is OPEN in the defense and throw to those spots, not wait for the WR to get open. This means being able to read defenses and sense the pressure.

4. Needs to be able to progress through his reads quickly if the hot route is taken away

5. Needs to be a threat in the medium and long ball game to keep the defense honest and free up the quick strikes.

 

All of these things above are things that Trent vastly struggles with and has been incredible poor at. Just because he tends to throw short does not make him a ideal candidate for the West Coast Offense. It makes him a candidate for the bench until he can greatly improve in those areas above.

 

 

Laughable.

 

Hey brilliance, there is a finite period of time between today and opening day against the dolphins. Can you take that time and equally divide it by four and hope that you find the guy you are looking for while at the same time allowing the rest of the offense that is, by the way learning a new offense, time to gel. There is no choice to pick a qb prior to training camp so that that particular qb can get the reps with the first team that has a makeshift offensive line, and questions at receiver.

 

If you don't like Edwards than fine, but he may be the lesser of all the evils and this captain checkdown stuff, which announced the thread but is not the main theme of it, is a bunch of crap. Also, if there is anything that he has it is accuracy. Hate to beat a dead horse but the pass to Reed between the Wash defenders to get in field goal range was not bad. It is my opinion that he should start and the sooner that decision is made the better off the team is.

[Alphadawg7]

Laughable.

 

Hey brilliance, there is a finite period of time between today and opening day against the dolphins. Can you take that time and equally divide it by four and hope that you find the guy you are looking for while at the same time allowing the rest of the offense that is, by the way learning a new offense, time to gel. There is no choice to pick a qb prior to training camp so that that particular qb can get the reps with the first team that has a makeshift offensive line, and questions at receiver.

 

If you don't like Edwards than fine, but he may be the lesser of all the evils and this captain checkdown stuff, which announced the thread but is not the main theme of it, is a bunch of crap. Also, if there is anything that he has it is accuracy. Hate to beat a dead horse but the pass to Reed between the Wash defenders to get in field goal range was not bad. It is my opinion that he should start and the sooner that decision is made the better off the team is.

 

 

Dude, give it up...I literally started laughing hysterically when I read your ONE PASS theory as to why Trent is accurate and in the very sentence just called the pass not bad. The number of bad passes dwarfs the good passes like Donald Trumps checking account dwarfs your piggy bank. Hell, the number of passes he DIDNT throw to wide open WR's dwarfs the number of good passes he has actually thrown for this team.

 

Honest truth is that I would fully support Trent if he could ever develop into a decent QB...I also just dont believe that will ever happen...if it does, great, but at this point its a long shot. But I love how you completely disregard all the football related points I put in that post by the way (probably because you cant really dispute them) and come back with this one pass in the Washington game was not that bad...

 

And dog14787, not going to get into a debate with you on this topic again as we know how that worked out in the past But come on bro, don't you think you are over playing the supporting cast theory here? I mean I can name dozens of QB's who have done more with half the talent we have had on offense...Trent has had enough weapons to produce more than he has by far.

 

To everyone delusionally talking about how the supporting cast made Montana so great...Do you fools even realize he won his first SB in 1984 BEFORE they had ever drafted Jerry Rice and other key 49ers that led them to more SB wins later in the 80's? He took over a TERRIBLE losing team and had them winning the SB in his 3rd year in the league, just his 2nd year actually playing before they had any of those other famous 49ers like Jerry Rice. Thats right people, he DID NOT have that supporting cast when he got to the 49ers, turned the team around, and won the SB in 1984.

 

Montana was a phenomenal QB and you are either a complete fool to doubt it, too young to have seen him play, werent born yet, dont know football at all, a total Trent fan boy making excuses, or some combination of these things to actually question how good this guy really was...

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

Laughable.

 

Hey brilliance, there is a finite period of time between today and opening day against the dolphins. Can you take that time and equally divide it by four and hope that you find the guy you are looking for while at the same time allowing the rest of the offense that is, by the way learning a new offense, time to gel. There is no choice to pick a qb prior to training camp so that that particular qb can get the reps with the first team that has a makeshift offensive line, and questions at receiver.

 

If you don't like Edwards than fine, but he may be the lesser of all the evils and this captain checkdown stuff, which announced the thread but is not the main theme of it, is a bunch of crap. Also, if there is anything that he has it is accuracy. Hate to beat a dead horse but the pass to Reed between the Wash defenders to get in field goal range was not bad. It is my opinion that he should start and the sooner that decision is made the better off the team is.

Even if the Bills were to decide to simply give the starter job to Edwards without him winning it on the pre-season without competing against Brohm and Fitzy such a move actually also is giving the #2 job to Fitzy without giving starter PT to Brohm. This is important as in his past history Edwards has proven to be injury prone,

 

I lay this unfortunate label on Edwards for objective measurable reasons. To me a player deserves the injury prone lable when they lose valuable PT 3 times in 2 seasons to injuries to different parts of the body (one wins the IP label to me when a hit causes injury to various body parts rather than a nagging injury to the same body part- Jimbo was tough enough to play through most injuries except a nagging bursa sack which needed constant attention).

 

In his first two years TE lost PT to an arm injury, a concussion, and an undefined injury which the coaching staff said was not the arm that cost the youngster valuable starts in pre-season. Add to this his college career getting disrupted by injury and there is a pretty good chance that even if given the starter job we quite likely are gonna have to go with the #2 for chunks of the season.

 

I liked Fitzy but do not have the confidence in him to be my likely starter over Brohm which simply giving the starter job to TE is likely to mandate.

 

I think the Bills are better off with a competition as we simply need to know more before anyone earns the QB job.

[mpl6876]

Even if the Bills were to decide to simply give the starter job to Edwards without him winning it on the pre-season without competing against Brohm and Fitzy such a move actually also is giving the #2 job to Fitzy without giving starter PT to Brohm. This is important as in his past history Edwards has proven to be injury prone,

 

I lay this unfortunate label on Edwards for objective measurable reasons. To me a player deserves the injury prone lable when they lose valuable PT 3 times in 2 seasons to injuries to different parts of the body (one wins the IP label to me when a hit causes injury to various body parts rather than a nagging injury to the same body part- Jimbo was tough enough to play through most injuries except a nagging bursa sack which needed constant attention).

 

In his first two years TE lost PT to an arm injury, a concussion, and an undefined injury which the coaching staff said was not the arm that cost the youngster valuable starts in pre-season. Add to this his college career getting disrupted by injury and there is a pretty good chance that even if given the starter job we quite likely are gonna have to go with the #2 for chunks of the season.

 

I liked Fitzy but do not have the confidence in him to be my likely starter over Brohm which simply giving the starter job to TE is likely to mandate.

 

I think the Bills are better off with a competition as we simply need to know more before anyone earns the QB job.

 

Long winded post and stating the obvious. Of course competetion is the best...