jahbonas Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 Maybe (most likely not) I can bury this fascination with Charlie Weiss once and for all. He's served as a coordinator for two Hall of Fame head coaches who control all aspects of the organization, Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick. Remember that Ray Handley was the Super Bowl winning OC for Parcells. Either Parcells or Belichick could hire me or you as OC and still field an excellent team. Weiss has been a positional coach for most of his coaching career. Since coming to Notre Dame, his record is 35-26. His first recruiting class in 2006 was a consensus top 10 class. His 2007 recruits were consensus top 15. His 2008 class was consensus top 2. His 2009 recruiting class was consensus top 15. This indicates that his team should be at very least a top 15 team. Especially seeing as he crowed about having a "schematic advantage" against opponents due to his experience as an NFL coordinator. In 2005 (with Ty Willingham's recruits) Notre Dame finished ranked 9th. In 2006 Notre Dame finished ranked 17th. In 2007 Notre Dame finished unranked. In 2008 Notre Dame finished unranked. In 2009, Notre Dame is 6-5 and will probably finish unranked for the 3rd consecutive season. In spite of improved talent, Weiss' Notre Dame team has gotten worse in each year of his tenure. Charlie Weiss is a mediocrity. And explain why Urban meyer turned down the Notre Dame job when it was offered to him?? It was Meyer's "dream job" yet he still said no due to the restrictions Weiss had to live with. ND simplay cannot get the top athletes into the school to play in their defensive front 7. Notre Dame's graduation rate is in the 90% range while Florida Alabama & texas are near the 50% range - yes as a head coach trying to get wins its like playing with a hand tied behind your back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 And explain why Urban meyer turned down the Notre Dame job when it was offered to him?? It was Meyer's "dream job" yet he still said no due to the restrictions Weiss had to live with.ND simplay cannot get the top athletes into the school to play in their defensive front 7. Notre Dame's graduation rate is in the 90% range while Florida Alabama & texas are near the 50% range - yes as a head coach trying to get wins its like playing with a hand tied behind your back Meyer turned down the ND job because the Florida job is MUCH BETTER. What does ND have to offer Meyer that he doesn't have in Fla? The joy of living in Indiana instead of Fla? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I'm not advocating for Weiss to be hired by the Bills (at all), but to say he's not a good coach because of what's gone on at Notre Dame is not entirely fair. Notre Dame changed it's academic policies and shot its program in the head, not foot. Notre Dame can't recruit the best players because they can't get them through the admissions board. This is a policy that changed when Lou Holtz left (or perhaps in the last year of his tenure there). No top HS players want to play for Notre Dame. Think about it. The best HS players in the country come from Florida, California, and Texas. Do those kids really want to travel to 1000 miles to South Bend where the girls aren't as hot as they are at UF, USC, UT (not to mention they're way smarter) only to play in a place /where they won't have as much talent around them. Not to mention the campus is in the middle of nowhere. Yes, Notre Dame has CBS TV rights. But they just can't compete with the packages USC, UF, Texas etc etc can offer. The fact that Notre Dame gets the caliber players it does is astounding. They have lost every major recruiting battle the past decade to USC, UF and UT. And it's going to keep getting worse until Notre Dame goes back to letting athletes in. I'm no ND fan, but this is mostly true (the stuff about girls/location is wrong - it's right outside Chicago, for God's sake) despite the fact that the masses are in complete denial about it. Admissions policies make it very, very difficult for ND to compete. People have to remember that ND is trying to compete with the Ivy League/Stanford, not Florida/LSU/USC. I know a little about their academic hiring in the past decade, and trust me, that's what matters most to them. High performing students are part of that equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Good coaches win more with less. Weiss at ND had less, but lost even more. He coached bad teams to bad records. Harbaugh does much more with even less than Weiss. That is the measure of a coach. Id take Harbough 100x over before I took Weiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartshan-83 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I'm no ND fan, but this is mostly true (the stuff about girls/location is wrong - it's right outside Chicago, for God's sake) despite the fact that the masses are in complete denial about it. Admissions policies make it very, very difficult for ND to compete. People have to remember that ND is trying to compete with the Ivy League/Stanford, not Florida/LSU/USC. I know a little about their academic hiring in the past decade, and trust me, that's what matters most to them. High performing students are part of that equation. No it aint. South Bend is mainly a dump and the girls aren't exactly of the SEC variety. Plus it's ass cold and gray for 6 straight months... The academic standards thing is dead on true, but it is not an absolute talent-strainer. ND has gotten some top tier talent the last few years. Yes, I'm sure we missed out on dozens of blue-chippers that had to be crossed off the list from the start, but the talent gap is closing. Jimmy Clausen was the #1 overall recruit in '07...Floyd, Tate, Te'o, etc...all guys that every program in the country wanted. The problem with this team is coaching...mainly defense, but it starts at the top. Meyer turned down the ND job because the Florida job is MUCH BETTER. What does ND have to offer Meyer that he doesn't have in Fla? The joy of living in Indiana instead of Fla? I mainly agree, but I'll qualify. Meyer took the Florida job because it was much EASIER. Florida does pretty much outrank ND these days in every desirable football category. But Notre Dame still has something that Florida can never offer Meyer, the chance to be a legend. If he can swing another Nat'l title this year, Meyer will go down as a great, great coach. But if he did that at ND, he'd be a god in the college football world. JMO... Plus, yeah Indiana isn't much to write home about, but let's not pretend Gainesville is South Beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I'm no ND fan, but this is mostly true (the stuff about girls/location is wrong - it's right outside Chicago, for God's sake) despite the fact that the masses are in complete denial about it. Admissions policies make it very, very difficult for ND to compete. People have to remember that ND is trying to compete with the Ivy League/Stanford, not Florida/LSU/USC. I know a little about their academic hiring in the past decade, and trust me, that's what matters most to them. High performing students are part of that equation. Have you been in ND? Its in the middle of no where, 0 nightlife when compared SEC and even Big 10 schools, freezing cold in the winter, and yes the girls are butt. That is why they use the term Doomer goggles.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew in CA Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I mainly agree, but I'll qualify. Meyer took the Florida job because it was much EASIER. Florida does pretty much outrank ND these days in every desirable football category. But Notre Dame still has something that Florida can never offer Meyer, the chance to be a legend. If he can swing another Nat'l title this year, Meyer will go down as a great, great coach. But if he did that at ND, he'd be a god in the college football world. JMO... I wasn't going to chime in because I am biased, but this is the reason people hate ND. C'mon, he'd be a "legend" at ND? For Domers, sure, but give me a break! This kind of "holier than thou" mindset (no pun intended) is why people continue to celebrate ND's losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 No it aint. South Bend is mainly a dump and the girls aren't exactly of the SEC variety. Plus it's ass cold and gray for 6 straight months... The academic standards thing is dead on true, but it is not an absolute talent-strainer. ND has gotten some top tier talent the last few years. Yes, I'm sure we missed out on dozens of blue-chippers that had to be crossed off the list from the start, but the talent gap is closing. Jimmy Clausen was the #1 overall recruit in '07...Floyd, Tate, Te'o, etc...all guys that every program in the country wanted. The problem with this team is coaching...mainly defense, but it starts at the top. I mainly agree, but I'll qualify. Meyer took the Florida job because it was much EASIER. Florida does pretty much outrank ND these days in every desirable football category. But Notre Dame still has something that Florida can never offer Meyer, the chance to be a legend. If he can swing another Nat'l title this year, Meyer will go down as a great, great coach. But if he did that at ND, he'd be a god in the college football world. JMO... Plus, yeah Indiana isn't much to write home about, but let's not pretend Gainesville is South Beach. WHEN the Gators win their 3rd Championship under Meyer he will be a GOD in the SEC which is the College Football world today. The SEC is the NFL of College, ALL the other conferences are on the level of the UFL. Gainsville is not South Beach, but it is a lot closer to it than Indiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 And it's going to keep getting worse until Notre Dame goes back to letting athletes in. The phrase you're looking for is STUDENT-athelete. Nope. Not even a little bit. If Notre Dame fans want to win, they need to recruit athletes. Not student athletes. Just like all the other programs in the BCS. If they want student-athletes that's fine, but they can't expect to win a national championship if they stick to that policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 So coaching at ND is like "trying to win with 2 hands behind your back"? What nonsense. ND gets great recruits, has great facilities and tons of exposure and money. Yeah, they aren't USC, Florida or Texas. But otherwise nobody has it any better. Their academic standards are blamed, but we aren't talking about Stanford here, it's a catholic college not Ivy League. I'm sorry, but you're flat out wrong here. Tons of schools now have it better than ND when it comes to recruiting. Even Stanford lowers their academic standards when it comes to athletes (just as ND used to). That's how Stanford gets their athletes in. They have a set number of "academic exceptions". Notre Dame took those exceptions away. That has doomed them to a I-AA level program. Notre Dame already has huge burdens when it comes to recruiting (they are in a cold climate, at a Catholic school that prohibits many social activities, and don't have a very attractive female population -- at least in comparison to California, Florida, Texas and other warm weather schools) ... now they are adding an even bigger hurdle of making their academic standards higher than what the NCAA accepts. Notre Dame fans can't have it both ways, nor can their detractors. If Notre Dame wants to focus on academics, that's well within their rights. They can do that and field a sub-BCS level team. They can even be commended for it. But they can't clamor for their coach's head every year when that results in sub-par teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartshan-83 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I wasn't going to chime in because I am biased, but this is the reason people hate ND. C'mon, he'd be a "legend" at ND? For Domers, sure, but give me a break! This kind of "holier than thou" mindset (no pun intended) is why people continue to celebrate ND's losses. Wasn't trying to be holier-than-thou...sorry if it came off that way. I just have the opinion that hate 'em or love 'em ND has/had a Yankees-type aura. Championships will garner much more media attention and in turn build legends higher. I would say the same thing if I hated Notre Dame. JMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 I wasn't going to chime in because I am biased, but this is the reason people hate ND. C'mon, he'd be a "legend" at ND? For Domers, sure, but give me a break! This kind of "holier than thou" mindset (no pun intended) is why people continue to celebrate ND's losses. Urban Meyer himself coached at ND as an assistant and had it written into his contracts that he could exit the contracts if/only if Notre Dame offered him a job. Meyer wanted the ND job because it was his 'dream 'place to coach. However even he turned it down when he saw the restrictions on allowing football players into ND - it made it too difficult to win at Notre Dame. These facts are not from biased ND fans its simply what happened. So when judging Charlie Weiss' W-L record keep in mind even urban meyer turned it down due to those restrictions The SEC obviously is the breeding ground for the NFL and the top talent plays there. Its done mostly however because those schools in the SEC have far lower academic admission standards for their football players than Notre Dame does -its that simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Meyer turned down the ND job because the Florida job is MUCH BETTER. What does ND have to offer Meyer that he doesn't have in Fla? The joy of living in Indiana instead of Fla? That's the point. ND can't offer anything Florida has to offer -- to coaches and even less to players because a coach doesn't have to have a higher GPA / Board scores than the NCAA allows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 Wasn't trying to be holier-than-thou...sorry if it came off that way. I just have the opinion that hate 'em or love 'em ND has/had a Yankees-type aura. Championships will garner much more media attention and in turn build legends higher. I would say the same thing if I hated Notre Dame. JMO... Yes but unlike the Yankees who have every advantage to win ($$$ to sign free agents) Notre Dame is at a major disadvantage to win due to their ridiculous admission standards for the football team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew in CA Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Urban Meyer himself coached at ND as an assistant and had it written into his contracts that he could exit the contracts if/only if Notre Dame offered him a job. Meyer wanted the ND job because it was his 'dream 'place to coach. However even he turned it down when he saw the restrictions on allowing football players into ND - it made it too difficult to win at Notre Dame. These facts are not from biased ND fans its simply what happened. So when judging Charlie Weiss' W-L record keep in mind even urban meyer turned it down due to those restrictions The SEC obviously is the breeding ground for the NFL and the top talent plays there. Its done mostly however because those schools in the SEC have far lower academic admission standards for their football players than Notre Dame does -its that simple I don't deny their academic standards are a handicap... I'm not sure if you even read my post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 WHEN the Gators win their 3rd Championship under Meyer he will be a GOD in the SEC which is the College Football world today. The SEC is the NFL of College, ALL the other conferences are on the level of the UFL. Gainsville is not South Beach, but it is a lot closer to it than Indiana. And the SEC got that way (NFL of college) by maintaining the lowest academic standards for admissions of its football players. If you want to win in football simply lower your academic standards - this has caused a shift of power in college football away from the big10 and Notre Dame to the SEC schools of the south. Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Steve Spurrier and Lane Kiffin all understand this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew in CA Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Wasn't trying to be holier-than-thou...sorry if it came off that way. I just have the opinion that hate 'em or love 'em ND has/had a Yankees-type aura. Championships will garner much more media attention and in turn build legends higher. I would say the same thing if I hated Notre Dame. JMO... You may be right that the media would hold them in higher esteem and they Meyer would go down in history if he resurrected the ND program to a championship level... but I feel that ND fans in general (not you necessarily, you've always come across as a reasonable guy), like Yankee fans and Cowboys fans, for some reason feel that wins at their place make it more "special" than wins somewhere else. It's true that they have more fans so more people care and get more media slobbering so every win and loss is frontpage news on espn.com, but I resent that attitude in general. I think it only makes their status more legendary in the minds of those that are inclined to care about ND in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Urban Meyer himself coached at ND as an assistant and had it written into his contracts that he could exit the contracts if/only if Notre Dame offered him a job. Meyer wanted the ND job because it was his 'dream 'place to coach. However even he turned it down when he saw the restrictions on allowing football players into ND - it made it too difficult to win at Notre Dame. These facts are not from biased ND fans its simply what happened. So when judging Charlie Weiss' W-L record keep in mind even urban meyer turned it down due to those restrictions The SEC obviously is the breeding ground for the NFL and the top talent plays there. Its done mostly however because those schools in the SEC have far lower academic admission standards for their football players than Notre Dame does -its that simple When Meyer had that written into his contracts, it was before he went to Fla. After being in Fla he realized he was HAPPY there. Yes they have lower admission standards than ND, SO WHAT. As was said before the vast majority of the BEST recruits are from SEC Country. Even if ND lowered their standards, they would get a few, but the MAJORITY of recruits would still choose the SEC over ND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I'm no ND fan, but this is mostly true (the stuff about girls/location is wrong - it's right outside Chicago, for God's sake) despite the fact that the masses are in complete denial about it. Admissions policies make it very, very difficult for ND to compete. People have to remember that ND is trying to compete with the Ivy League/Stanford, not Florida/LSU/USC. I know a little about their academic hiring in the past decade, and trust me, that's what matters most to them. High performing students are part of that equation. This is 100% true. And is totally fine. If Notre Dame wants to focus on academics that's commendable. But their fans (and national media) have to realize this fact and judge their teams on that level. But that won't happen because old timers still want ND to be the gods of the NCAA. But that won't happen. No matter who's coaching. Even though I agree a good coach can win with less, a good coach still can't consistently beat teams that outmatch them in every athletic category year in and year out. It just won't happen. ... And as for ND having the top 10 recruiting class, etc etc, that's not the whole picture. ND can land 2 or 3 top blue chippers a year. That's about it. Sometimes they can get the top ranked guy in certain positions too (like Clausen), but teams like UF, USC, UT are getting WALK ONS that are blue chippers. Notre Dame ain't. As we all know with the Bills, a team is only as good as it's depth. And ND can't compete. (Sorry for the multiple posts ... I just was responding as I caught up on the thread and realized I made a string! Oops!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartshan-83 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 The academic standards thing is big, but it's not nearly the insurmountable obstacle people here are making it out to be. Sure, it puts ND at a disadvantage right out the gate, and that disadvantage might be all that other schools need to stay on top. But the bottom line is that the right guy CAN get talent to Notre Dame. Charlie Weis was/is that guy. He recruited EXCEPTIONAL classes the past few years, snagging several players that the USCs, UTs, UFs, etc of the world all would have loved to have. It's hard as !@#$ to convince an 18 year old from Georgia to travel 1000 miles north to a frozen wasteland where he has to actually go to class and not spend his days soaking in sunshine and beautiful co-eds. But it's not impossible. It just takes a great recruiter to do it. Charlie's problem began and ended with his inability to take the talent and do something useful with it. He's just not a very good coach. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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