jahbonas Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 I don't deny their academic standards are a handicap... I'm not sure if you even read my post... I read your post and you claimed that "to Notre Dame fans" winning there would make meyer a legend. Its urban meyer who believes that too - thats why he wanted to coach there so badly and called it his dream job. Meyer called it his dream job - not ND fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew in CA Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I read your post and you claimed that "to Notre Dame fans" winning there would make meyer a legend. Its urban meyer who believes that too - thats why he wanted to coach there so badly and called it his dream job. Meyer called it his dream job - not ND fans. Yeah, Meyer is an ND fan. He's coach of another squad, but worked at and openly loves ND. I don't see where we disagree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 The academic standards thing is big, but it's not nearly the insurmountable obstacle people here are making it out to be. Sure, it puts ND at a disadvantage right out the gate, and that disadvantage might be all that other schools need to stay on top. But the bottom line is that the right guy CAN get talent to Notre Dame. Charlie Weis was/is that guy. He recruited EXCEPTIONAL classes the past few years, snagging several players that the USCs, UTs, UFs, etc of the world all would have loved to have. It's hard as !@#$ to convince an 18 year old from Georgia to travel 1000 miles north to a frozen wasteland where he has to actually go to class and not spend his days soaking in sunshine and beautiful co-eds. But it's not impossible. It just takes a great recruiter to do it. Charlie's problem began and ended with his inability to take the talent and do something useful with it. He's just not a very good coach. Period. As Tgregg99 accurately points out its the DEPTH of players is where ND fails compared to SEC schools. Also the athletes in the starting 7 on defense for ND are typically way behind what you see at an SEC school and thats the major difference. The offensive positions of QB & WR and DB's on defense can be recruited fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 The academic standards thing is big, but it's not nearly the insurmountable obstacle people here are making it out to be. Sure, it puts ND at a disadvantage right out the gate, and that disadvantage might be all that other schools need to stay on top. But the bottom line is that the right guy CAN get talent to Notre Dame. Charlie Weis was/is that guy. He recruited EXCEPTIONAL classes the past few years, snagging several players that the USCs, UTs, UFs, etc of the world all would have loved to have. This is untrue. There has only been one player that USC has lost to ND since Pete Carrol got that job -- and it's the LB that's there now from Hawaii (I forget his name). One. Other than that, USC has snipped DOZENS of kids that 10 years ago would have ended up in Golden Helmets away from South Bend. And again, these "exceptional" classes Weiss has gotten are paper thin. He has gotten 3 or 4 top blue chippers a recruiting season. Some of them have been the top ranked at their position. But a recruiting class is 25 scholarships. The rest of those 21 scholarships have been 4 star guys or below. Whereas UT and USC and UF fill out their remaining scholarship rosters with 5 star recruits. Again, I know it sounds like I'm defending Weiss, but I'm not. He could be the worst coach in the world, I don't really care (and I don't want him in Buffalo). I'm just saying how ridiculous Notre Dame's standards have become. To me it's crazy. People (like Dib) like to say college football (and athletics in general) are still "student-athletes" but that's bull ****. College athletics make millions of dollars for their schools. These guys aren't brought in to read and write, they're brought in to win. And if Notre Dame had any sense of shame, they'd return their multi million dollar CBS contract and apologize for not giving their fans and alumni a chance to compete on a national stage rather than continue to throw their coaches under the bus (Ty and now Weiss). Or, as another poster suggested, they should just come right out and admit that their not trying to compete to win a BCS Championship, but to maintain a proud academic tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartshan-83 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 As Tgregg99 accurately points out its the DEPTH of players is where ND fails compared to SEC schools.Also the athletes in the starting 7 on defense for ND are typically way behind what you see at an SEC school and thats the major difference. The offensive positions of QB & WR and DB's on defense can be recruited fine. What he said isn't accurate. I'm not the biggest champion of recruiting rankings, but ND has more or less stacked up with Florida in terms of incoming talent for the past several years. Florida definitely has an edge but it's not so severe and the idea that "blue chippers" are walking on at UF is just not true. ND is not getting 1 or 2 five star players and then a bunch of ****. Quite the opposite. Like I said, recruiting rankings aren't crystal balls, but I don't know another way to compare so let's take Scout.com: 2010 (incomplete): ND: 11th - 18 total, 5-star (1), 4-star (8), 3-star (9) UF: 7th - 18 total, 5-star (2), 4-star (11), 3-star (5) 2009: ND: 23rd - 18 total, 5-star (2), 4-star (7), 3-star (8) UF: 21st - 16 total, 5-star (4), 4-star (5), 3-star (7) 2008: ND: 2nd - 23 total, 5-star (4), 4-star (14), 3-star (5) UF: 12th - 22 total, 5-star (4), 4-star (8), 3-star (9) 2007: ND: 11th - 18 total, 5-star (1), 4-star (11), 3-star (6) UF: 1st - 27 total, 5-star (10), 4-star (13), 3-star (4) Yeah, ND is not in the top 5 every year...that would be great. And really being in the top 10 consistently should be the absolute bottom line. But the idea that Notre Dame is not even in the same league as other teams in terms of talent since Weis started recruiting is simply untrue. Now you might say that ND is recruiting the wrong positions, and I might agree. But that is a different point... This is untrue. There has only been one player that USC has lost to ND since Pete Carrol got that job -- and it's the LB that's there now from Hawaii (I forget his name). One. Other than that, USC has snipped DOZENS of kids that 10 years ago would have ended up in Golden Helmets away from South Bend. And again, these "exceptional" classes Weiss has gotten are paper thin. He has gotten 3 or 4 top blue chippers a recruiting season. Some of them have been the top ranked at their position. But a recruiting class is 25 scholarships. The rest of those 21 scholarships have been 4 star guys or below. Whereas UT and USC and UF fill out their remaining scholarship rosters with 5 star recruits. Again, I know it sounds like I'm defending Weiss, but I'm not. He could be the worst coach in the world, I don't really care (and I don't want him in Buffalo). I'm just saying how ridiculous Notre Dame's standards have become. To me it's crazy. People (like Dib) like to say college football (and athletics in general) are still "student-athletes" but that's bull ****. College athletics make millions of dollars for their schools. These guys aren't brought in to read and write, they're brought in to win. And if Notre Dame had any sense of shame, they'd return their multi million dollar CBS contract and apologize for not giving their fans and alumni a chance to compete on a national stage rather than continue to throw their coaches under the bus (Ty and now Weiss). Or, as another poster suggested, they should just come right out and admit that their not trying to compete to win a BCS Championship, but to maintain a proud academic tradition. I respect your opinions and the thought you've put into them, but I respectfully disagree on several points. First of all, as I pointed out above, ND's typical recruiting class under Weis is not as you've painted it. First, to say that USC has only recruited one player (Te'o) in the past 9 years that eventually signed with ND is ludicrous. Off the top of my head I know they recruited Clausen and Crist very hard. You think Pete Carroll didn't want the No.1 overall prospect QB who happened to grow up in his backyard? Second, the idea that other teams are "filling out their scholarships" with 5-star players is also way off. Maybe you and I have different ideas of what 5-star players are but there aren't very many of them. It is rare that any team in the country gets more than a handful of them in any given year. USC, UF, Ohio St, etc. might snag 9-10 in a super year, but for the most part they are pulling 3-5. Finally, I completely agree that student-athletes in moneymaking programs are brought in to make a profit for the school. I think they should be compensated better than they are but that is a different discussion. Notre Dame did make a philosophical change a while back that football would not drive the university like it once did and that academics would be brought back to the forefront with no exceptions. But that had not prevented top-tier players from getting in. We might not have UT talent, but a good/great coach could most certainly win a BCS game with the talent currently on the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 And explain why Urban meyer turned down the Notre Dame job when it was offered to him?? It was Meyer's "dream job" yet he still said no due to the restrictions Weiss had to live with.ND simplay cannot get the top athletes into the school to play in their defensive front 7. Notre Dame's graduation rate is in the 90% range while Florida Alabama & texas are near the 50% range - yes as a head coach trying to get wins its like playing with a hand tied behind your back Generally speaking, Stanford is a more difficult University in which to gain admission. It has a smaller undergraduate class than Notre Dame and Stanford's departments are across the board among the finest in the nation. Their football graduation rate always hovers around 93-95 percent. They recruit against USC and the other Pac 10 schools. This is a severe disadvantage. I'm no ND fan, but this is mostly true (the stuff about girls/location is wrong - it's right outside Chicago, for God's sake) despite the fact that the masses are in complete denial about it. Admissions policies make it very, very difficult for ND to compete. People have to remember that ND is trying to compete with the Ivy League/Stanford, not Florida/LSU/USC. I know a little about their academic hiring in the past decade, and trust me, that's what matters most to them. High performing students are part of that equation. Good coaches win more with less. Weiss at ND had less, but lost even more. He coached bad teams to bad records. Harbaugh does much more with even less than Weiss. That is the measure of a coach. Id take Harbough 100x over before I took Weiss. As I posted over two weeks ago Harbaugh is a highly qualified candidate for an NFL Head Coaching job and should be several rungs above Weiss on anyone's list. Harbaugh has a very impressive track record in a situation just as difficult, if not not more difficult, than Weiss. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Harbaugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Have you been in ND? Its in the middle of no where, 0 nightlife when compared SEC and even Big 10 schools, freezing cold in the winter, and yes the girls are butt. That is why they use the term Doomer goggles.... Have you been to Ann Arbor? Happy Valley? Pullman? Columbus? They're all cold, but they're basically fine. So is South Bend. Moreover, call me crazy but I'd pay money to be in South Bend over Alabama, Mississipi, South Carolina, Tennessee, or Louisana (5 of the the poorest states in the country). Location is so overrated. You think Yale is suffering from admissions because it's located in New Haven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Again, I know it sounds like I'm defending Weiss, but I'm not. He could be the worst coach in the world, I don't really care (and I don't want him in Buffalo). I'm just saying how ridiculous Notre Dame's standards have become. To me it's crazy. People (like Dib) like to say college football (and athletics in general) are still "student-athletes" but that's bull ****. College athletics make millions of dollars for their schools. These guys aren't brought in to read and write, they're brought in to win. And if Notre Dame had any sense of shame, they'd return their multi million dollar CBS contract and apologize for not giving their fans and alumni a chance to compete on a national stage rather than continue to throw their coaches under the bus (Ty and now Weiss). Or, as another poster suggested, they should just come right out and admit that their not trying to compete to win a BCS Championship, but to maintain a proud academic tradition. I understand why you think it's crazy, but one of those people who think it's a good thing. When you *really* think about it, it's fairly easy to conclude that the NCAA is so disingenuous in its goals re: the sport (at the big-time level) that it's hard to rationalize its existence. I realize it's not going away, of course ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Have you been to Ann Arbor? Happy Valley? Pullman? Columbus? They're all cold, but they're basically fine. So is South Bend. Moreover, call me crazy but I'd pay money to be in South Bend over Alabama, Mississipi, South Carolina, Tennessee, or Louisana (5 of the the poorest states in the country). Location is so overrated. You think Yale is suffering from admissions because it's located in New Haven? You are not from the South. Recruits want to play for a WINNING Team & Coach, then location of the school. Some kids want to get away, but the majority want to stay close to home so family & friends can come watch them play. That is the reason USF even though it has a VERY YOUNG Football program is able to attract the talent that it has. The South has the best recruits in the Country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 You are not from the South. Recruits want to play for a WINNING Team & Coach, then location of the school. Some kids want to get away, but the majority want to stay close to home so family & friends can come watch them play. That is the reason USF even though it has a VERY YOUNG Football program is able to attract the talent that it has. The South has the best recruits in the Country. I agree with you, but the midwest has plenty of good recruits as well, and OSU, Michigan, Penn State, Iowa, Wisconsin etc. are consistently competitive year after year. The same goes for BC, and to a lesser extent WVU and Pitt. Yes, the SEC is on top now, but these things go in cycles, as I'm sure you know. Over the past 15 years, PSU, OSU, and Michigan have all won national championships, so it's not as if it's a markedly worse brand of football. The same argument could be made about California, whose high school talent is the equal of FL and TX (partly because it's a more populous state). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 You are not from the South. Recruits want to play for a WINNING Team & Coach, then location of the school. Some kids want to get away, but the majority want to stay close to home so family & friends can come watch them play. That is the reason USF even though it has a VERY YOUNG Football program is able to attract the talent that it has. The South has the best recruits in the Country. The north and midwest have plenty of kids that can play football too - the difference is up north there is at least an attempt to parlay education with football Lower Notre Dame's admission standards to that of Tennessee or Alabama and you will quickly see ND rse to the top 5 again with their history and tradition and national tv contract. and you would quickly see Urban Meyer leave Florida for southbend in a heartbeat - he'd also have to fight off Nick Saban as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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