Dave in VA

Dude, it's pretty clear to me both parties are to blame here, so both parties need to be part of the solution. I'm not sure I follow what your point is -- I was only citing what some others were saying about Toyota's motivation. And FWIW,I used to buy only foreign, now my vehicles are GM, Ford, Ford, and Olds. I want to believe in us industry, trust me.

What I don't get in several of the posts here is any sort of admission that mgmt has played a role in this predicament. I find that amazing and an extremely narrow view of the situation.

Please cite the laws that rig things for the unions.

It's pretty widely written that Toyota's motivation for doing this is so that "nationalistic feelings" are not aroused in the US. They fear the backlash from that would be worse. I wish I could site you a source off the top of my head but I can't. Google around and you'll find it.

I get it, but weren't those benefits arrived at through bargaining? Bargaining involves both sides, no? Then, who is it that's designing cars the public doesn't want (and are now blue light specials vis a vis employee pricing)? Does the union design cars? (See Malibu Maxx, soon to go away, see Saturn, Pontiac G6). Did the union make the decision to acquire Saab (overall market share declining)? There's plenty of blame to go around at GM.

So American car makers are being run into the ground over all the union perks, So are you absolving GM's management from having anything to do with their plight? Read some topics on GM management and golden parachutes and you'll see what I'm getting at. (Mind you, I'm not disagreeing that the unions are certainly part of the problem as well.)

You can't possibly be serious? You must not have lived through the period.

Best: D-Kennedy, FDR, Clinton R-Reagan Worst: Gotta be Nixon (I'm no crook). Funny how the neocons won't name the trickester as the worst ever.

Try taking the longer view. The point is, a significant part of the us economy is represented by the stock market, indeed all financial markets. It's not just small business. Are you telling me that all's rosy in both sectors? The volatility in the financial markets is unlike anything we've seen in recent years. Again, go back to the original article and tell me what the "good news" is in there? The contributor cited that tax receipts were up. Well, yeah, that usually happens when the article covers the period when income taxes become due.

Yeah, just most of it.

It was meant as a figure of speech.

Then how come your buddy Ken Star, who spend 30-some million of our dollars couldn't make any of this stick? 30 million bucks to prove our president lied about getting a BJ. Why don't you get upset about that? That's real. Look, there's no point in wasting any more bandwidth on this topic. You are free to believe whatever you want to about this.

And your point is? Look, the junk Nixon was accused of was small potatos to what he resigned over, no? As to Vince Foster, knock yourself out hunting down conspiracy theories.

Let me see, a wayward rich kid gets caught up in a scumbag gang and robs a bank. Not good. Deserves her fate. No question about it. The President of the United States, the man at the top, is charged with committing high crimes and misdemeaone charges, including abusing the power of his office, failing to submit materials asked for by the Congress and the courts, and trying to stop the investigation into the Watergate affair. Not to mention all the other fun things he was accused of during his presidency. The first is a serious crime, no doubt about it, but it doesn't undermine the foundation of our nation, like the second offense. Perhaps it would have been better if Nixon HAD just robbed banks.

Exactly. Like Ford's pardon of Nixon.

How 'bout that nutjob dennis miller. the guy who thinks he's funny?

Just think, if his retirement savings were in the stock market, he'd be even further behind now.

I can hardly wait to see what "facts" they come up with. I'm sure her fingerprints are all over the money. Oh wait, I gave away one of their conclusions.......

Delay did what he did, of that there is no doubt. However, Judicial Watch, a conservative group with a history of going after the Clintons, hasn't proved anything. I think there's a difference there that you're not seeing.

I'm at a loss as to how anyone could read that article and say we've turned the corner.

Politics as usual. People have soured on Bush & Company (gas prices out of sight, the handling of the Schaivo situation, religious test for judges, Social Security --you can go on and on) so they want to take it out on someone else. Even Richard Lugar admitted that Bolton is the most controverial Bush nominee.

You can say anything you want about me, so long as you know what the consequences are. You call me a piece of you-know-what and you'll know the consequences right away.

I guess I didn't see your earlier question. Who knows what Howard's thinking? He's saying this stuff to fire up his base. I doubt he thinks Repubs are evil in the sense that the Bible describes evil. I've called people evil, but certainly didn't mean it in the Biblical you're going to h*ll way. He called the Repubs corrupt and braindead. I would submit that most politicians are, at one time or another. These are not fightin words, at least not to me, at my advanced age. Now, you come up to me and say f-you, and you're in trouble. Cursing is worse in my book, slander would run somewhere behind it.

Let me put it to you this way. Someone comes up to you and says you are evil and/or corrupt, and/or brain dead. Or he says F-you. Pick the more egregious statement. Your guys are trying to use what Dean said to sully his character. Do what you want. But I don't care to hear my VP tell a Senator F-you either. I don't think much of his character for doing that. Has nothing to do with where it was said. See the difference now?

I'd be willing to bet I've been on this planet a bit longer than you, and, no, I can't ever remember an incident like this. I'm sure strong language is spoken alot up there, but I don't ever remember hearing someone in such high office PUBLICLY using such language. Not that I even care all that much. But the point is, somehow you dismiss Cheney's language, and jump all over what Dean said. Let's not forget, Cheney has a position that carries a bit more stature than Dean, so that's why I'd expect him to behave accordingly.