bluv

And acouple of different offensive systems with all new receivers besides Evans and Reed...your point is?

It's about time; 6th year, highest paid QB in the game. All along I have said about Vick as a QB is that it is not that he CAN'T get it done is that he A'INT getting ot done. But in the last 2 games; particuarly today Vick has been superb and I give credit where credit is due.

This game can mostly hurt JP not help for the reasons you mentioned. If he passes for 300 plus or throws 3 plus TDs those that oppose will say it was only against Green Bay and it doesn't count. If he plays bad; no matter whether we win or lose he will be cut up on this board.

No; we didn't actually force management to run these guys away and no I don't think we would be better with Drew. But to those who over react, only seeing good or bad, no in between are just agonizing! I mean a good player has a bad stretch or an average young developing player who hasn't turn into a Pro Bowler by year 2 is too quickly labeled as washed up or a bust! I'll bet if Whitner does get at least 4 picks this year or 15 next year he will be thrown in the heap as well; remember you heard it here first! Those types are worse than the sport journalists who over-exagerate an issue just to make a story or start a discussion! And where have you been? There are way more than 2 guys on this board who wants to bench JP! And if you want to pretend it's more like 80%, Holcomb's Arm feels like that 80% all by himself!

Exactly. And once you leave, STAY GONE! Don't try to get back on the bandwagon when we ever become competitive and then act like you've been a Bills fan since OJ!

I read that thread earlier and that was finnally the last straw to the knee jerk reaction type fans; I just had to let it out!

I agree about Gandy moving to guard as I was hoping in the offseason that we could find a better option at LT, slide Gandy to LG, start Reyes at RG and leave Peters at RT to keep some chemistry. Right now some consider Peters as an OK player. If he has ANY adjustment period and gives up ANY sacks the fans will tear him to pieces! I'm hoping these moves pan out for then we can look to fill other weaknesses or adda playmaker on offense for JP.

I hope so!

Let me make this clear: I have no objection with trying another LT. I do think some are a ittle hard on Gandy and won't even give him a chance to succeed at his normal position and feel he should be relegated to the bench just because they feel he sucked at LT. Who knows how he migh play at his natural position. I can see if he was drafted or brought in strictly to play LT; he wasn't. I remeber a few seasons back the Cowboys allowed their All World LG Larry Allen to slide down and play LT for the last half of a season. Like Gandy, he wasn't an All-Pro at LT but was average and filled in admirably until a better replacement was found. I'm not saying that Gandy is or will be an All-Pro guard but just because he isn't a franchise LT doesn't mean he can't be a quality starting LG either.

See what I mean; attitudes like this. I mean Spikes is not close to a %100, hasn't played but 2 games this year and some act like he can't and will never be able to make plays. If you go back and watch the film, like NFL Shortcuts you will see that he made a couple of decent tackles close to the line of scrimmage. No he didn't make any sacks or tackles for lost but he is coming back off a major injury, recovering from a major hamstring injury while learning a new position in a new system. Now I don't want this article to become one solely about Spikes; save that for another topic. But it's comments like this. I mean if a good player like Spikes has any hangups he is quickly jumped on. But if he was a Free Agent, playing good and didn't re-sign the fans would be crying about loyalty. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I agree that I've been frustrated with losing as well; we are becoming the new Bengals or the present Cardinals. It's one thing to want your team to win and put a good product on the field. It's another to bash every player who isn't the best at his position in the league as garbage or trash a good player who has a few bad games. Think about; every good player we have had has been bashed and if they aren't labeled as garbage they are labeled as over rated or as bad human beings at one point. If they get cut or traded they are label washed up and have bad luck wished upon them. My biggest issue is that it is suppose to be other teams fans that constanly bash our best players not Bills fans themselves as we are suppose to be defending them.

I mean Spikes comes off a major injury and in his first play back causes a turnover for a touchdown and then gets a serious hamstring injury. Then because he has not dominated in 2 games back now he is done. Finished. Washed up and maybe would be replaced by a rookie LB. They run Henry a Pro Bowl RB who grew up a Bills fan out of town for a flashy RB from "Da U" and pretty much made him out to be nothing but a bumbling fumbling scrub who had no speed and couldn't catch or block. Now they do the same thing to his replacement. They run Drew out of town and now have their QB of the future and initally said lets be patient. Now 16 games into his development and he is not a Pro Bowl QB now some want to sit him down for a career backup who has shown nothing in the league in Nall. One minute these same fans before the season say they don't expect the team to win more than 4 games this year yet want to replace their young QB who is improving basically because we are not winning with him THIS year; a rebuilding year. I just don't get it; especially with a player like Spikes who has played in only 2 games after a major injury and has no upgrade at all playing behind him, why are those types so quick to label a player a bust, over rated, or washed up and run them out of town, off the team? One minute these guys are your heros; one or two bad games they suck.

Exactly; like Gandy's game against the Lions where he gave up 3.5 of his 5.5 sacks allowed this year. To me judging Gandy is like judging Nate Clemens or Mcgee: as they have had some good stretches where they might not be shutdown corners they have played pretty solid. Then they have bad stretches where they get beat and then everyone acts like they are the worse corners in the world. I have no confidence in them playing man-to-man the whole game and shutting WR's down but they can in stretches of games. The biggest difference is that Nate is getting paid big time money, the highest on the team and should be expected to not get beat and make big plays. Gandy is just a bargain player. I'm not his biggest supporter but Gandy has been a bargain so far, better than most expected. Some expected him to suck and that he would get manhandled on a weekly basis last year and it didn't happen. So far this year while he hasn't been stellar and I have no confidence manning him up the whole game against elite DE, he has played average football. And that is more than what we expected of him. He has played far better and cheaper than Shelton has been for the Dolphins, the man who everybody clamored for just because he was heard of! While I want an upgrade at the position, I can't honestly make it a feast or famine situation with him either. Remember a few years ago we almost ran Lindell out of town for a few key misses that he had; he was treated like the worse kicker in the league. Now he is probably the most dependable player on this squad! I'm not saying Gandy would have been an elite player at LT if given time but he should at least be given a chance to play at his more natural position of guard for which he was originally brought here to play.

So Gandy has given up what 4.5, 5.5 sacks this year. 3.5 were given up in one game! I don't know why some Bills fans act as if he some revolving door to the Qb as he has held up pretty well against Taylor, Colvin, the Bears DE, etc. He is not a great prospect at LT he is not as bad as some make him out to be. While he might not excel at being able to consistently handle the quick players on the edge on an island he may be able to man down the guard position on the same side. I'm more concerned about RG as they have given up 5 sacks up the middle. Villareal is still starting; he is always hurt and if he isn't is suspect. If Reyes is healthy I'd rather see him or give Mertz a chance at RG and cut our ties with Villereal.

That's because he has more playmakers on his team. How many times have you seen Eli just throw the ball up to a 6-4 Plaxico and let him go get it? How about having the best RB in the game the past 3 seasons. Hell they now even got the best short yardage RB in the league now that Bettis has retired in their backup.

Plus JP went to Tulane and didn't have his big NFL brother and father to handpick where he should end up. That is why JP is being thrown under a bus as he doesn't and never has had the hype coming out of college so media and fans are too critical and impatient and don't give him a fair chance to grow into and earn his status.

That's why it's a TEAM game. The topic was not whether the Bills OFFENSE had improved it was that JP had improved from last year. And another thing is that this is a new offensive system (whatever Fairchild calls this mess) and the team has to get a feel as well. And you bring up points and TD/INT ratio. His INT's aren't the big issue as he normally doesn't throw many picks. His biggest issue has been lack of TD passes which again correlates with offensive success. Everyone knows that he and the offense has to be more productive and must improve. But ou can't ignore that he has improved over last year. If we were 5-2 with his exact numbers then JP wouldn't be an issue.

But he isn't the revolving door at LT that some have made him out to be either as while he was 1st viewed as a stopgap LT he did an average OK job there the past 2 seasons. I'm not saying that he is a good LT or anything close but he did an OK job blocking for a young QB who holds the too long and playing on a team that has no offensive identity, establishes nothing, and constantly ends up in 3rd and 8 or more. Show me a team that has a Pro Bowler at every position. Don't many teams have a franchise LT or even RT as it is a luxury. If the Pats can go 5-1 by starting a rookie at RT then anything can be accomplished. And if you don't think he is that bad or is better than Gandy go back and watched the 2 games he played against us!

If the O-lines moves we just made pan out I'd take Calvin Johnson and give JP a big receiving target. If not I'd take the best OL, DT or CB available in no particular order.

All those presures from his blind side aren't always Gandy's fault either as a lot have been blitzes that have been missed by Reys and the RB's. I know those WM bashers won't forget WM playing matador to that NY safety that bust JP in that Jet's game!

Well having better receivers, better blocking, and more run support are all benefecial to a QB; especially a young one. Maybe I should say it a little LOUDER; my point ALL ALONG is that while JP has NOT arrived and is not at this time capable of CARRYING a team, he has IMPROVED and if we were a better team and he had the luxuries mentioned above that young QB's drafted ahead of him (Eli, RIvers, Ben) he would be more PRODUCTIVE and a WIN more games. After saying all that JP OR any of the young QB's I just mentioned are complete QB's yet as they all make plenty of mistakes. The difference is those other 3 are on better teams with a better supporting cast with more PLAYMAKERS on BOTH sides of the ball.

I like that about him as he is willing to stick up for his team mates. While he has improved, he is not without fault or blame;particullarly when it comes to sacks. For those blinside hits where he has no chance that have caused fumbles I will excuse him for that. But there are times where he does hold the ball too long. To be truthful, I don't think the O-line has been as much to blame this year as people have made them out to be. The suspect playcalling, receivers not getting open, and JP youthfullness and locking on to one receiver are the main culprits. Those quick hits that cause fumbles catch everybody's attention but overall I feel that in most games JP has had time to at least set up and make a read. Everybody's favorite whipping boy, Gandy, who everybody treats as if he is not start worthy has given up 4.5 sacks; 3.5 happening in ONE game at Detroit. The other was the safety against the Pats. Until we make better playcalling and put our best players in positions to make plays such as more crossing routes for Lee and offtackle runs for Willis to avoid constantly being in 3rd and long then this O-line shuffle won't matter.

My sentiments exactly. Known JP haters, like Holcomb's Arm want to find any little stat to support their claim of why JP is no good. Whoever said that he was a top flier QB on a contending team? I mean I can see if he where Vick and the highest paid QB in the league and been in for 6 years and still struggling getting the ball down the field or if he was an offseason free agent QB pickup like Culpepper and was expected to come in lighting the field up on a team with all the pieces supposedly in place. Anybody who open their eyes long enough can see that the kid has improved dramatically over last year. I mean just look at his feet; he is not rushed as much as last year. And for those overly concerned with stats since he has been one of the most sacked QB's I wondered if the stats I pulled up are net passing yards? All that can be said is that while he AND the running game has struggled the past 3 games against 3 of the better defensive teams in the league (some will callit digressing), he overall has improved as a passer. He is not where he should be and has parts of his game he needs to improve on. Who knows; he may never get better but he is definitely better than where he came and playing better than some winning starters on other teams. For example some will say McNair bought his team back in 2 close games and JP could never do that. Well if our D played like the Ravens; getting turnovers and putting our team in better position to score and had held 5 teams under 14 points we'd be 5 and 2. I'll end by saying any team that gives up on a 1st rd QB they moved up to get after 16 starts who has one of the strongest arms in the league, can make every throw and is one of the top 3 mobile QB's in the league and is steadily improving is just a stupid organization and any impatient fan who wants to give up on a young Qb as such after 16 starts on a team that is going no where and never was expected to is also stupid.

I'm glad somebody will at least give MW some respect for his run blocking for when he was motivated he could be a mountain mover. With that being said I think part of McGahee's problem is the fact that the Bills don't run to the edges enough. I mean Royal is suppose to be a good in-line blocker and since WM has a wicked stiff arm I can't tell you why Fairchild doesn't allow him to do it more without Shelton getting in his way. I think WM is more of an instinctive runner than a hit the gap runner and more stretch plays from a singleback such as the Colts run would be way more effective than running him up the middle 80% of the time behind our weakess blockers!

For one, Carr still hasn't passed for many yards though. Back to the subject, no matter what anybody says about JP, he is playing like an AVERAGE QB on a SUB AVERAAGE team that is rebuilding. For 16 starts under normal progression that is not too bad. I mean if Young or Matt Leinart have similar stats next year but their team start 2-5 ther wouldn't be as much pressure to replace a young QB. His biggest problem as of late has been fumbling but 99% of QB's who have gotten hit on the plays where JP has fumbled when he is hit blindside as soon as he sets up will fumble. Like I posted earlier, he is just not good enough to carry this or any team yet. He may never be able to; who knows? His play so far this year was what was expected of him last year: to be carried by a team with a strong running game and a top Defense. All of those including JP fell short of expectations. He has played as good as Drew did his last year when we rebounded from 0-4 to finish 9-7. IF we had the same D and running game as we did in 2004 we'd be 5-2 this year with the same play from JP.