jad1
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Posts posted by jad1
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You absolutely cannot discount the possibility. Klingler was a first round pick for a reason, dumbass. Just like all the other first round picks, regardless of position. 10% of first round picks turn out to be great. 10% of the great ones turn out to be HoFers. You think your points are cogent based on 1% if the sample, which is patently ridiculous.
Right, the point that good players contain attributes that make them good NFL players is patently ridiculous.
David Klinger was a first round pick because the Bengals made a mistake, just like the Bills did with Losman.
Elway never played for a bad coaching staff. Neither did Manning. Kelly played for Bullough for less than half a season and had 3 previous seasons of development by a quarterback guru who he credits for making him into a pro QB. Kelly and Manning basically played the most successful parts of their career under the same front office staff. Try and figure out why you've made no point there.The Bills were 4-12 Kelly's rookie year. Elway QB rating was 54% his rookie year. The Colts were 3-13 Manning's rookie season.
Despite the coaching staffs, these guys struggled their rookie years. But despite their struggles, they made plays that showed that they were NFL quality starters.
See the point.
Losman and Edwards were all but guaranteed to be bad quarterbacks because they play on bad teams and for bad coaches. These things don't happen in a vacuum, Cletus.I've never argued that Losman and Edwards didn't play under poor coaches. What I've argued, is that despite have a stacked deck, they haven't made the plays that Kelly, Elway, and Manning did their rookie years. (And I'm comparing their entire careers against the real NFL QBs rookie years).
Some? How about most? Most first round QBs are total flops. You're annoiting Flacco and Ryan based on a season and a quarter of basically being carried by the teams around them. Sanchez based on even less.I could use Rothlisberger, Rivers, Manning, Rogers, Palmer, or Cutler. They're all examples of QBs who bring more talent and intangibles to the QB position than Edwards.
Unwilling to concede that first round QBs who turn out good bring something to the NFL? That's some brilliant thinking right there. Absolutely genius.That's the point your arguing against. Like I said before; a waste of time. By the way, Edwards brings almost nothing to the NFL. Nada, zip, zilch.
If you had a genius coach and OC, what type of offense do you build around a QB who won't throw to his WRs and still can't read a 3-4.
There isn't a real point to concede but I'm not surprised you are having a tough time figuring that out.I'm the "know it all" but you still haven't told me who the next great NFL QB currently playing in college is. Put up or STFU.
Dude, I don't know, I spend my most my Saturdays out and about. I've seen some of Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, and Florida, and right now, I'm not that impressed with the QBs that will be coming out in the draft.
Right now, I hope the Bills don't spend a pick on a QB in the first round.
But I just don't spend a lot of time doing college scouting. Happy?
Anyway, this grows tiresome. I'm chalking this up to 'agree to disagree' on Edwards and Losman.
I'm spending the rest of the night watching the MNF game. Sanchez and Henne are making plays all over the field and I want to catch some of it.
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Pot, kettle, black.
touche
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Got any more things I've never said? Not once have I said Trent Edwards was going to be a HoF QB. I never said David Klingler, Heath Schuler, or any other first round bust wasn't a blown draft choice. I never said Mouse Davis could make Akili Smith a great QB or that Tom Moore could fix Russell. I never said Mark Sanchez looks like a star. It's pretty !@#$ing stupid to say that every first round QB drafted who didn't make it could possibly have "just been a bad QB". Especially considering the points I've already made about successful NFL men and the choices they've made. I don't expect you to get the correlation between the breaths you take in orally.
Right:
Me:
I'm still waiting for your examples, by the way, of young QBs with franchise potential being broken by a poor coaching staff.You:
Pick any first round QB who didn't make it, ever.So maaybe I missed your meaning, but that implies that David Klingler just needed a better coaching staff to guide his development and he wouldn't have been a bust.
My entire point is that you cannot expect to develop ANY college QB the way the BILLS have with Edwards/Losman. The rest of the point is that smart football people take necessary steps to give their young QBs the best chance to succeed. COACHING AND DEVELOPMENT MATTER.Sure, and my point is that even with a bad coaching staffs, QBs with NFL starting potential still show something despite the rest of the team around them.
Despite their situation, Losman and Edwards haven't shown the ability to rise above the chaos around them. This is something that Elway, Kelly and Manning all did.
Losman and Edwards are bad quarterbacks playing on bad teams with bad coaches.
Apparently that's really hard for you to comprehend because somehow you know better than real NFL personnel men who is going to be a productive NFL QB, despite your unwillingness to tell us who the next great one will be. Nut up, Sparky.Right, because this is about me. My argument is based upon the common observation that some first round QBs become successful while some first round QBs become total flops. Not all of those flops played for poor coaches (Kyle Boller, Matt Leinart).
So maybe, just maybe, the QBs that turn out to be good bring something to the NFL that contribute to their success.
You're unwilling to concede that point.
It's turned into a waste of time because you've been exposed as another regurgitating blowhard who doesn't know football from his own balls. Again.No, it's a waste of time because I'm debating with a self-appointed know-it-all who mutates his arguments and makes personal attacks rather than conceding a point to further a debate.
It's been real, though. Have a good night.
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Pick any first round QB who didn't make it, ever.
So open up your !@#$ing crystal ball and tell me which college QB the BILLS need to pick next season. It's apparently pretty easy for you and much harder for guys like Bobby Beathard who built both the Dolphins and Redskins dynasties but wasn't as smart as you obviously were on Ryan Leaf.
You're also smarter than every GM in the NFL back in 1983 because EVERY ONE of them not named Don Shula passed on Dan Marino, who you knew was a Hall of Famer. You're smarter than Parcells who picked Long over Ryan and smarter than 16 other GMs who passed on Flacco.
This is turning into a waste of time. You're right, all first round flops are products of bad coaching, they're not bad QBs.
If Tom Moore coached Russell in Oakland, we'd be calling him Peyton Manning Jr.
And Akili Smith just needed Mouse Davis to come out of retirement to be his OC. It's all Mike Brown's fault for not hiring him.
And Mark Sanchez looks like a future QB star because Rex Ryan wants to run the ball 80 times a game.
I never thought that I'd have to argue that David Klingler or Heath Shuler were blown draft choice. Who knew I'd run into such an expert on QB development
.So tell me genius, do us all a favor and look into your f$%king crystal ball and tell me who the Bills have to hire as OC to turn Trent Edwards into the next Jim Kelly, or Phil Simms, or Joe Montana.
Enlighten us.
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Gilbride didn't coordinate Rob Johnson - he left for SD while Brunell was still the starter. And he arrived in Buffalo after Johnson was gone. Gilbride is a good coordinator, believe it or not. He's succeeded almost everywhere he has been except for Buffalo (due to the craptastic line) and to a lesser extent Pittsburgh (Kordell - 'nuff said). Come to think of it, the only competent Bills offense this decade was a Gilbride-coordinated one (2002). Of course, he was blamed (like Henning before him) while the real culprit was a terrible offensive line.
Gilbride's problem in Buffalo was the Bledsoe couldn't read a cover 2 defense.
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I totally disagree with this. We are the number 10 running team in the NFL. Look it up. Our strength is running the football. We've got 2 very good RBs. Our Oline run blocks way better than they pass block. Our QB is not a good passer.
Junk the no huddle. Let's become a power running team. Put a Fred and ML back there and mix up which one gets it. Keep up the TO end around. Add in a double reverse with Roscoe coming the other way. When they stack in the box, throw some timing routes. This could work. Let's stop going with our weekness of no huddle shotgun pass offense and do what we do best. Run the freakin' football.
Too all nattering nabobs of negativity: yeah I know, Ralph is too cheap and it would never work.
The problem is that most of the yards were gained early in the year, when teams where double-covering Evans and Owens.
Since the Bills cannot get the ball to those guys on a consistent basis, teams will forgo the double coverage and start loading the box, which will make running the ball much more difficult.
Not saying it can't be done, but the running game was not that effective the last two weeks against a couple of winless teams. It's not going to be able to carry the offense alone the rest of the year.
The offense will only improve when Owens and Evans become a threat again.
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HaHa....Aaron Rodgers a star QB? You must be high. How many teams with a bad O-line has a QB thats been getting things done? Its hard for me to think of any. Look Matt Casell, was damn good becasue he played for a team that had a good O-line, now KC totally sux and so does he. A crappy O-line makes you have to force throws or make decisions to quickly which usually ends up in INT's or FUMBLES.
Ben Rothlisberger won the Super Bowl behind a line that gave up more sacks than Buffalo last season, and the Steelers had no running game.
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To pick a GM, Ralph should consider what type team he wants to build.
Considering that the Bills play in the northeast, a team with strong offensive and defensive lines, a strong running game, and an attacking defense seems the way to go.
Next he should find teams in the NFL that play that style of football, and then interview the top scouting/player development guys for the job.
In other words, he should raid the Giants, Ravens, Vikings, or Titans scouting departments.
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So we could trade T.O. for another smallish DB from a Big 10/PAC 10 school? Ooh, I'm in.
C'mon now, any draft picks aquired in the trade would be used by the new FO/coach.
And maybe the new staff will have a fetish for 180lb running backs. Or 5'8" QBs. Maybe the Bills have a first round fullback in their future.
Let's not limit our opportunities when Dick and friends are gone.
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Like Dick's hand picked franchise QB? Cade was a gem. All the strippers loved that guy.
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Dumb statement. Have you ever asked yourself why this organization hasnt had a successful qb since Kelly? Because the organization is not NFL caliber. Edwards is just another young talent that this organization ruined.
That's easy, this organization has no idea what qualities make a good NFL QB, and for that reason, has not been able to aquire one since Kelly left.
The same goes for the LT position.
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What was funny (I wasn't laughing though) was that Losman's mechanics were much better and he seemed much more comfortable in his first game with Las Vegas than he ever looked in Buffalo, where he routinely looked spastic and herky-jerky. Maybe having a good NFL QB coach (Fassel) around isn't such a bad thing afterall.
Yeah, that will last until he plays a defense good enough to force him to make a 2nd or 3rd read. Then all hell will break loose.
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You take a good college QB draft him on a crappy team, throw him millions of dollars with someone like Eugene Parker at his side and when it is all said and done, it might be hit or miss if the kid will keep his head on straight and succeed. Maybe a rookie salary cap is not a bad idea.
Maybe. Or maybe you try to figure out if the guy is more interested in spending his weeknights attending celebrity hot tub parties than studying the playbook and breaking down film.
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Phoooooohweee. That was long.
BTW you forgot Tim Couch and Browning Nagle.
Thanks, I'll let Darin explain how NFL coaching ruined the careers of those two gems.
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Not that the best UFL defense is better that the Cleveland D, but..........................
JP threw 2 TD's leading his team to victory.
Makes you wonder..........
Yeah, and Brooks Bollinger threw 4. So if NFL teams are looking for a QB out of that league of slags, JP isn't even on the top of that list.
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Kelly himself credits his development to Mouse Davis and the time he played in the USFL.
Mouse Davis? Kelly's successful because of the run and shoot?
Considering you base your theory that young QBs who take a beating become broken, shell-shocked failures, I find it interesting that you would point to an offensive scheme that Kelly got creamed in the USFL as a reason for his success.
Kelly liked the Run and Shoot because it let him throw the ball 50 times a game. But it did almost nothing to protect him or develop him in the way you decribe below with Flacco and Ryan.
So what is your point again?
I'm sure the fact that Peyton Manning has had ONE offensive coordinator his entire career is a complete coincidence. Tom Moore deserves no credit, it's only Manning's genetic awesomeness that has gotten it done.Manning's genetic awesomeness? Yeah, you are familiar with the Mannings, right? So let's say Manning doesn't hook up with Tom Moore. Who fades into oblivion, Moore or Manning? Does Moore turn Andre Ware, David Klingler, or Heath Shuler into the best QB in a generation? Does Manning turn into Trent Dilfer playing for some other sub-standard OC?
And speaking of Manning genetic awesomeness, what about Eli, who helped the Giants win the Super Bowl. Who's his offensive coordinator?
If Gilbride is so great, how come he didn't develop Rob Johnson like he did Manning?
The fact is that Moore and Gilbride are benefiting from the work that Archie Manning did in making his sons NFL-ready straight out of college.
Flacco and Ryan played on running teams. Both were in the bottom 4 in passes attempted on teams that were in the top 4 in both rushing attempts and rushing yards. That's smart, stable coaching from people who understand what it takes to win with a rookie QB.Not sure what you're saying here. If you're claiming that good coaching = minimizing pass attempts, well Flacco, Ryan, and Edwards all averaged around 26 pass attempt per game last season.
Did the Bills exhibit "smart, stable coaching" by limiting Edwards to the same number of pass attempts that the enlightened coaching staffs of the Ravens and Falcons limited their rookie QBs to?
Of course, those staffs got more productivity out of their passing game because they have better QBs.
Jets: 4th in rushing attempts, 4th in rushing yards, 29th in passing attempts, 29th in completions, 25th in passing yards. Sanchez has 4 TDs and 5 interceptions. Jets defense: 4th in points allowed. Yeah, he's a franchise guy and the reason the team is getting it done. Ryan's staff deserves no credit. It's all about Sanchez.The Jets didn't trade for Braylon Edwards because they believe he'll be a good downfield blocker. They'll increase Sanchez's role as the season progresses.
You're right. You're smarter than all the NFL personnel people combined and none of the first round QBs who've been picked have had the talent to be successful in the NFL and have been broken by their organizations.I never claimed I was smarter than anybody, I'm just expressing my observations and trying to back them up with examples.
I'm still waiting for your examples, by the way, of young QBs with franchise potential being broken by a poor coaching staff.
We can continue to keep the debate one-sided though, me defending my points, until you come up with your list.
It's really that simple, isn't it?Well let's see. Say the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf instead of Peyton Manning. Does Tom Moore coach him to the greatness that Manning has achieved?
Let's say that the Houston Gamblers signed Todd Blackledge instead of Jim Kelly. Does Mouse Davis turn him into a HOF QB?
What if Kelly Stouffer was drafted by Don Shula instead of Marino. Does he break the NFL TD record?
How about Chuck Long playing for Dan Reeves. Does Denver still go to all those Super Bowls?
I stand by my point. No coach in the league could turn guys like Akili Smith, Danny Wufferel, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, or Jamal Russell into NFL starters.
Finally, how do you explain Matt Leinart? A first round pick who is struggling to hold the backup QB position. Meanwhile, Kurt Warner is lighting up the scoreboard. It the coaching staff enabling Warner, while at the same time it's breaking Leinart?
Or is it a case that Warner has what it takes to play in the NFL and Leinart doesn't? And maybe Arizona should have understood that Leinart lacked the committment and leadership needed to play in the NFL, and avoided him in the draft.
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http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_...?urn=nfl,195245
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_...?urn=nfl,195375
I thought the conventional wisdom was that despite outstanding perfomance in the SEC at left tackle he was to play only right tackle? Not that we couldn't use a right tackle.....and a left tackle.
I can't believe that the Ravens had to resort to the draft to bring in backup for their LT! You mean they didn't have a fat-slob RT that could have manned the position just as well as Gaither? And didn't they have a 7th round pick with a couple of years of football experience ready to make his first NFL start as a replacement?
Obviously, the Ravens don't know what the hell they're doing! I'll bet that they're not even using the no-huddle the entire game!
The first quarter of this season has certainly exposed the stupidity of the Bills' braintrust's offseason decisions.
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I remember the vast amount of blue seats...45k were at that game.
The only reason that many showed up was that it was nice sunny day.
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I was at the game also... Statue of Liberty play twice? You have a hell of a better memory than me... all I can guess at is Tommy Kramer was the Vikings QB that day?
Yep.
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at halftime against the Minnesota Vikings...when he introduced Pat McGroeder to have his name placed on the wall.
ol Ralphie was booed loudly as he was at the podium...McGroeder's short speech dealt with his friend Ralphtastic being booed.
Perhaps the ol bugger remembers that game from 1985.
I remember it, I was at that game (I was at the concession stand at half time when he was booed though).
The Vikings won by ripping the Bills with the statue of liberty play....TWICE!
Good times, good times.
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for all you Edwards haters out there... I suppose you'd rather have JP Lossman back?
Who lost 15 yards on his return at the end of the 3rd Qtr?
Here's a hint.
The same guy that has botched 2 maybe 2 other Kick returns with the latter a turnover in the freaking RED ZONE!!!
Has Rosco lost his marbles or what?
Why haven't they benched him om KO returns?
So go ahead and blame Edwards all you want. All you are doing is masking the truth that the Bills as a team are in disarray.
Is that really the only option? How about this, hire some personnel guys who know how to find talented QBs in the draft, and not the slags that the Bills have been wasting picks on the last decade?
In the meantime, keep Trent in there in a futile effort to "develop" him, or put in Fitz. It really doesn't matter right now, as the Bills 'QB of the future' clearly isn't on the roster.
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To erase the shame of previous bills losses, perhaps we could adapt a completely exotic uniform. I think if we started anew with a similar name, maybe the buffalo Jills, and had new uniforms, like the pink ones I saw some attractive girls at the game wearing, the players would feel more confident.
I thought they did that with their current uniforms.
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Don't what to sidetrack the thread but the defense had a bad game and one bad quarter. If we had any type of offense, we are at worst 3-2. We have essentially lost games where our defense has given up 3 and 10 points (3 set up on another Parrish fumble).
Guys like Stroud, Williams, etc. are playing their butts off and have nothing to show for it. Our offense is cheating them.
They are what their record says they are. Either on offense or defense, the team doesn't make enough plays. There's a ton of blame to spread around.
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There was a time when a Sunday loss would ruin the entire week. Can't say it does anymore.
Or when a Sunday would make an entire week. Not so much anymore either.
Amazing what happens when you throw the ball up to your playmakers...
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Aaron Rogers has him beat:
20 times sacked
6 TDs
1 INT
101 QB Rating