K-9
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Posts posted by K-9
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Excellent post agree 100% We need to see improvement and the players need to know they can do it. If we are struggling against vanilla offense and defense coverages how will they look when the lights really come on?
Vanilla offense? Hardly. Jim Zorn was on the Doc Walker show and when asked how much credence there was in the idea that coaches, like Gibbs before him, don't like to show much during the pre-season, Zorn said in some cases yes, but as far as the THIS Skins team was concerned, they were not going to hold much back because the offense is new to everyone on the team, especially Campbell. He was going to use the pre-season to acquaint his players with the system the best way he new how and that's by having the players PLAYING the system.
Kind of like Spurrier when he took over and kicked everyone's ass in his first pre-season.
GO BILLS!!!
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Christ man, take a midol. Its good to see that playing against good competition doesnt phase our players.
He's really having a 3 ply day, isn't he?
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Favre's return to 05-06 form has been alluded to by others in the thread. I heard Glazer on the radio the other day mentioning how Favre was never an off-season workout hound to begin with and often came to camp in less than the best of shape. During the '07 offseason the Packers had him working with a personal trainer, following a strict nutrition program, and doing all sorts of additional conditioning. The result last year was that he showed up in the best shape of his life and had a great year. Glazer's main point was that NONE of that has happened this year. Glazer also predicts a performance closer to that of 05-06 than what we saw last year. I tend to agree.
That said, the Jets' oline is solid and any kind of running game will make him more effective for sure. But he's still in a new place in a new system and not in the kind of physical shape he was in last year at this time. If Favre comes out of the gate slowly this year the NY press will crucify him and the pressure will be tremendous and I can see him trying to force things (which he's always done) more as a result.
History is littered with great QBs who just couldn't walk away and went to other teams only to sadly prove the point that their best days were far behind them. I predict the same for Favre.
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...As to Butler, he's had one year of starting with no other real play and that was on a team that had league worst offensive performance pretty much no matter how you decide to carve it up. So again, I say show me why Butler is good based on the results where you can't and can only point what people that couldn't have been more wrong in the past say....
Careful there, sport. You're coming close to nullifying your own arguments regarding Peters with the same argument you are using to knock the Bills for extending Butler.
I don't think you have much of a clue about offensive line play. Suffice to say, Butler had a VERY good year last year. One of the reasons we were more sucessful running to the right side, BTW.
There's also a lot to be said for Oline cohesion. It's key. Locking up a starter long term is a good thing. Especially one with lots of upside and who's deal will soon seem cheap in the coming years.
You really should review every game Butler played last year and focus SOLELY on him. Of course we're missing the context of the play call and everyone's responsibility on that play. We're also missing coaching tape from the endzone view which is helpful when analyzing gaps among other things. But even with the TV tape it's not hard to see that Butler played well last season.
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But you see Dog Man, they got their mega-bucks BEFORE one pro bowl season, and Pace was a holdout. They were early first round picks; Pace was the #1 overall. The Rams even traded up for him. Think about what he cost them and you know what? A great LT is worth it.
Teams made a drastic error when they skipped over Peters in the draft. The Bills, who continuously neglect the OL and waste picks on transient defensive backs, lucked into him. Now, while holding baskets of cash and cap room, it is time to pay up.
The names you listed above played a very prominent role in taking their teams to the superbowl. Peters can do this for us. Not this year, but down the road.
We need this player. Our franchise is fragile. It is habitually mismanaged and poorly coached. Jauron is a coach that nobody wanted who was hired by a GM that nobody wanted. Who is Brandon?
Our QB and star RB are 2nd year players. They will not improve as much sans Jason Peters. It isn't possible. Again, it is time to pay up.
I will never argue a great LT is worth it. And I don't argue that Peters isn't going to be one of the best. We certainly agree he is the best player on our offense, if not the team. His athleticism is unsurpassed. That doesn't make him a polished LT though. His technique is inconsistent at best. When he combines his great athleticism with true knowledge of the position I have no doubt he'll be in the company of the aformentioned. As you said, the others were 1st round picks (who COULD have been busts) that went on to multiple Pro Bowl seasons. THEN got their big payday (their rookie contracts notwithstanding). Peters has had one good season at the position. I can understand his position on the issue especially since he's not even the highest paid OLman on our team but he's going about this in the worst way possible.
Of course we need Peters if we are going to field our best team. But that's besides the point. The Bills have made it clear on their stance. Why can't Peters come in and take his physical? Why can't he come in and bust his ass in camp like others who've had or soon will have (Evans) their deals re-done?
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Schobel got fair market value for his past play. You think he earned his contract last year for all of that guaranteed money he's already pocketed? Low standards if so.
Freeney's still in his prime, Schobel's out of his.
I'd suggest you compare apples to apples.
You can't quantify 'prime' in any way. But if you wish to try, you go right ahead.
As for apples to apples, that's what the Bills did when they negotiated his deal. The numbers he posted merited the contract. What happened AFTER that is immaterial (i.e. last season). BTW and at the risk of repeating myself, the DE responsibilities and schemes were altered last year due to the injuries and the players playing behind them.
He's had FAR more success at his position, is FAR more polished at his position, and was willing to bust his ass in camp to prove his case. More than I can say for Peters. Far more. Talk about apples and oranges.
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Have he or his agent stated that he wants to be paid like the highest paid LTs? I haven't heard that.
I also disagree that the Bills will automatically make him their highest paid lineman. They haven't done anything with Evans yet and if I were Peters I'd use that as the primary gauge. Now the team's hands may be tied financially, but they could at least do something going forward.
As to the Schobel situation, there are similarities, but mostly in what players of lesser value got playing the same or similar positions. All similarities end there. Schobel got a huge deal as he was leaving his prime. Peters is just entering his and can fully be expected to continue to improve whereas Schobel can only be expected to get worse.
I still think that it's on the team to reach out to Peters and his agent and at least begin to explain where they stand on this contrasted with their giving Butler (this year) a seemingly inflated extension also with even less on record to suggest that he's gonna even be an average G, and Dockery and Walker's deals last year. If they can explain that to them, then progress will be made. If not, then they're just going to have to face the music from the band that they hired.
As to "having to get into camp," I could agree with you and we all could agree, but the reality is that holdouts are standard ploys by high profile players and just a part of the business and anyone thinking that loyalty to the team by players comes first, especially here in Buffalo, is deluding themselves. It's business and the business part of this organization just doesn't function well.
The question was asked by Dawgg in his post. That's what I was responding to. Peters and his agent haven't said anything but I don't think they're holding out because they DON'T think he should be one of the highest paid LTs.
As for Evans, it's been reported numerous times that he's a top priority and that there are ongoing discussions. Will anything get done, don't know. But they ARE talking and Evans seems pleased that they are. So yeah, maybe Peters SHOULD use the Evans situation as a guage. You don't see Evans holding out. Instead he's busting his ass and building his case.
Schobel has not left his prime. Don't know where you get that idea. If you wish to point to the decrease in last year's sack numbers as proof positive then I have to question your football acumen. The Bills redefined, in mid stream due to all the injuries, Schobel's responsibilities as they did for the other DEs last season to compensate for the inexperience playing behind them.
No, it's on Peters and his agent to honor their contract and get into camp. They don't owe him ANY explanation for why they redid Butler's deal. None at all. Has nothing to do with the situation. But they should probably know it's for many of the same reasons they redid PETERS' deal in much the same manner. A deal they DIDN'T have to accept, BTW. Maybe Peters and Parker should explain to the Bills why THEY want what they want instead.
Brandon has said and the Bills' record indicates, they are willing to redo merited deals but the player has to show good faith and be in camp is if he's obligated to do so. Brandon and Co. have to answer to EVERYONE in the organization, not just Peters. So I give them lots of credit for sticking to their policy. You see it differently. It's the FOs fault for everything.
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Better start preparing for a better 2009 draft pick right from game 1 onwards.
I seriously doubt, unless there's ANY truth that he's not 100% healthy, that he misses any regular season games.
If he does. So be it. If he wants to screw his teammates by not playing and thus hurting their chances he can sit on his ass for he 3 years the Bills own it.
Yes, he's the best player on our team, let alone the best OLman. But he's got a ways to go before he's in the company of Jones, Ogden, Pace, etc. They were PERENNIAL pro bowlers and All Pros. They are POLISHED LTs, whereas Peters has a ways to go in his techniques, etc. He makes up for his screw ups with pure athleticism. And that's fantastic. But you just don't make the guy the highest paid LT after only 1 1/2 seasons even PLAYING the position and one Pro Bowl birth.
He should be in camp, working to improve, proving to the Bills that last year was just the first of many great years, and renegotiate from that position.
If Parker thinks the Bills are going to flinch he's delusional. They WILL go with a less talented player if they have to. Teams have done that since the first player ever held out.
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The Bills can last all season...they just won't do as well. Peters can hold out probably until the end of training camp and I suspect he will, and that a contract will be signed just before the beginning of the regular season. I don't think either party feels a tremendous need to get 'er done right away. Its all just posturing and bull sh-- at this point
'Nuff said, Tenny.
We've seen this so many times in the past it should be readily apparent to everyone.
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Hear me out...I don't believe Peter's is healed from his injury...He's a big boy and groin injuries do take a lot of time to heal...So would you rather have an over paid LT that might be injured over someone who is healthy and playing their hearts out on the field?
Just food for thought
Of course we're not better off without our best OLman. That's a given.
Not sure about the injury stuff.
But I AM sure that we're better off if he ends up missing any regular season games because doing that SCREWS his teammates.
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Will the Bills pay Peters top-flight tackle money? Sure, they'll give him a raise. But will the Bills make him among the highest paid LT's in the league?
Eugene Parker doubts it.
Nor should they. The Walter Jones', Jonathon Ogden's, and Orlando Pace's of the world didn't get their mega deals after just ONE pro bowl season. And while Peters is an exceptional athletic talent, he's still not a polished LT in the league, unlike the aformentioned group. Yes, he's our best OLman by a mile. Yes he should be the highest paid OLman on our team. But would I make him one of the top 5 highest paid LTs? Not until he polishes his technique and proves last year was just a first of many great years to come.
The Bills WILL make him their highest paid OLman. But he's got to get into camp. Much like the Schobel situation. He's hurting himself, his teammates, and his leverage by just staying away.
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Unfortunately this league doesn't work on what's fair and right though. Perceptions often if not usually lead the way. Take Schobel for example. He's not worth that last contract we gave him, but the perceptions were, and correctly so, that he needed to be paid more than Kelsay questioning whether Kelsay was worth the huge contract that he got. I don't think so.
What the Bills need to do regarding this is to look at the dropoff in play by having Peters replaced and what the line looks like after that. Not that what they think has any credibility anymore, but if they think that and want to hinge their futures in Buffalo on the notion that this line isn't much different, or enough to warrant a restructuring/raise for Peters, than it is now, then they can take that gamble.
If not, then they need to get Peters in here.
I personally think that Peters is a little bit overrated. He seems to have played better in '06 than in '07. But he's still the best lineman that we have. Dockery and Walker are also overrated. And before anyone jumps on me for suggesting that, you don't trail the league in ball movement and 1st down conversions with a solid line regardless of who your RB and QB are.
Anyway, I only said that to suggest that maybe the line isn't much different without Peters. Who knows. I can't imagine that to be the case though.
Whether or not you, me, or anyone else thinks Schobel is 'worth it' or not is NOT the point. And it has NOTHING to do with Kelsey. Schobel got fair market contract value based on his production as a starting DE in the league at the time he signed his deal. If you question his production I suggest you compare him to the other big money DEs over the last 5 years. Including the bar setter (at the time anyway), Dwight Freeney.
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White players. You just can't trust 'em.
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Who're you calling a moron?
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Last I checked, Greer was still penciled in as starter. Nothing's going to be handed to McKelvin. He'll have to earn it. But I expect him to be our #1 CB sooner than later simply because of his sheer physical superiority to play the position.
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Actually, the best quarterbacks and the most efficient quarterbacks in the league make decisions that are approximately halfway between Trent and JP. Trent does it too fast, JP doesn't do it fast enough, trying to make the big play too many times. Both of them could be better and it's not necessarily easier to learn one way or the other (meaning go up or down). Plus some QBs are simply a little more conservative than others. The best, however, are not conservative (Manning, Brady, Favre, Brees, Romo, etc.). Trent will need to go for broke and the bigger play more often. And I believe he will this year. JP needs to take what he can get a little more often. If he plays, I would expect him to because we should have more playmakers and better playcalling on offense.
Fair point. But please go back and review rookie games of all the prolific QBs you mention and see how often they got rid of the ball too quickly. It's a natural and expected aspect of young QB play. If Edwards is still too quick on the trigger after 31 starts, I'll worry. Much of it has to do with his supporting cast performing their roles properly; all it takes is for one player to miss a read and BOOM, that play is NOT there. And all this is happening in an instant. In the meantime, take what the defense gives until you are at the point where you can exploit ANY D alignment and take what you want. That will take time and maturity. In the meantime keep the chains moving and keep the negative plays to a minimum. Negative plays are usually the result of either a positional breakdown or slow decision making by the QB.
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Too many to rank so I'll start with my first most dissappointing. The loss to the Chiefs in the 1966 AFL Championship Game for the right to meet the Packers in the first SB.
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It's funny how an entire offseason can make many fans forget how bad Edwards played once the opposing defenses had film on him. Dead issue? Hardly.
If Edwards doesn't learn how to burn defenses, this issue WILL come back to the forefront. If Losman was so awful and Edwards was so great, why were their stats nearly identical last year? You guys crack me up.
If our WRs, TEs, and RBs don't learn their reads to burn defenses the same thing will happen. Parrish and Royal can't see a hot read to save their lives. It ain't all on the QB much of the time. Oh and just to show I'm an equal opporutunity critic, their missed reads made JP look bad at times last year also.
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...Regardless, to say that JP "got four seasons to prove himself" is asinine. He had one season, '06. ...
Unbelievable. Your naivete is nothing short of amazing as evidenced by your inclusion of ONLY regular season games as the entire body of work with which JP has had to prove his case. You conveniently forget elements that coaches, scouts, and other personnel people feel are very important as well.
JP has had 4 full mini-camps, OTAs, training camps and pre-seasons (with the exception of his rookie season of which he only missed 7 weeks and was STILL around the classroom and running the opponent's O when he got healthy). Not to mention countless hours in the classrooms with his coaches. EVERY SINGLE SNAP HE TOOK during all those mini-camps, OTAs, training camps and pre-season and regular season games IS TAPED for evaluation. When the coaches evaluate each and every snap they have something none of us have when making that evaluation: the CONTEXT of the playcall and the taped EXECUTION of EVERY PLAYER INVOLVED IN THE PLAY on both sides of the ball.
So go ahead and keep on insisting that '06 was JP's only chance in the league. He's got a FAR bigger body of work available for evaluation than just the 16 games you keep saying he's had.
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...A couple other random thoughts:
1. Trent Edwards is our starting QB. There is no question in my mind. He just has a poise and internal clock that JP does not have. Edwards gets the ball out so quickly and he seems to make his mind up on his progressions in a way that I'm afraid JP never will - or at least not in Buffalo. Mike mentioned a pick early on by Trent -- but it was because the receiver (Lee I believe) fell down. The ball was there on a timing throw and it was an easy pick for the DB -- but one that Evans should have caught. I like JP and wish him well -- I just don't think he will be a starting QB here unless Trent gets hurt.
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Some around here would have you believe that element of TE's game is a big negative. That he's too willing to give up on the long play and goes through his progressions too fast. It's all about 'positive' plays. High percentage plays. Versus the VERY low percentage play of the DEEP SIDELINE PASS. Chicks dig the long ball, I guess. The name of the game is to keep the chains moving. That said, I look for TE to take far more chances down field as he's grown more comfortable with Evans, etc. Bank on it. In the meantime, like you, I'll be happy with someone that shows a TOTAL command of the offense.
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I have given this a lot of thought, and at this moment I believe Lee Evans is the most irreplaceable player on this team. If there was one person that we could not lose right now for an entire season, is Evans.
Now, I am big on strong offensive line play. I don't even necessarily believe we have to re-sign Evans in the offseason. But in terms of what we're going to do this season, I think it would absolutely crush us to lose him.
If Kirk Chambers had to replace Jason Peters, that would be terrible. However, I feel like even a below average left tackle to replace him would allow us to occasionally do something.
If Lee Evans went down, we would be stuck with a guy that can't get off the line of scrimmage (Parrish), a mediocre possession receiver (Reed), and a rookie wide receiver (Hardy). Our offense would not be able to run the ball with defenses constantly putting 8 men in the box, and our passing game would be even less effective than last year.
I don't expect Evans to put up big numbers this year. Maybe only 70 catches. But his threat - I believe - is the most important part of this team right now. Next year I might say Peters after a year of seasoning for Hardy. But not right now.
The whitest one. Everyone with half a brain knows that.
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Clements is.
Well at least you were willing to quantify it.
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I'm just going on recent history here of their dealings with Bills players. Clements, Evans, Peters vs Schobel. They couldn't give Schobel his money fast enough and he's not nearly as good as those three guys are. May not make you wonder what's going on, but it certainly is something that I'm starting to question. Are they outwardly saying such things behind close doors? I'm thinking no. But it's weird how they play hardball with those first three that I mentioned and how easily Aaron got his money.
By what measure, other than your misguided OPINION, are Clements, Evans, and Peters ALL better than Schobel? Peters, I'll give you but he's only had one monster season.
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Well, I was almost laid off in May, but got pulled back in. However, Iraq is more stable than our group right now, so I have decided to take the Web Development skills I have and take the next 10 steps towards self-employment if it comes to it. Business cards, domain name, new hardware, software, taking on new clients, etc... I go to bed at 2:00am on most days. I figure I need to pour a LOT of time and effort into TBD/SS to get them up to par with new web standards in order to start building my portfolio.
Monet almost got laid off, too. Imazing what you two have in common.
Seriously, best of luck in your endeavors. Whatever they may be. You're obviously very talented and those talents will take you far.
Keep the faith.
Oh, and try to get some sleep.
preseason football sucks
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I remember a certain Bills SB team going 0-4 in the pre-season and everyone was panicking as well because it came on the heels of the '89 season when we didn't make the playoffs. Can you imagine if we had TBD back in those days?
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