Turbosrrgood
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Posts posted by Turbosrrgood
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no we don't have secondary depth.
Florence, Whitner, Wilson all FA's. Corner next yr, FWIW.
We will likely sign Whitner (who has been tendered, aka not a FA), Wilson, or a FA to replace them (Safeties anyway). That still leaves us with Byrd, Scott (better than Whitner anyway?) McGee, McKelvin, Youboty, and some decent prospects behind them. That is a whole heck of a lot stronger than the mess we have at LB or DL...
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NO
Unless I am mistaken, the highest a DB has ever been taken is at the 3rd pick. That means the Bills are saying that P Peterson is the best DB to ever come out of college (or at least tied for the best). IMO he is over rated, but that’s beside the point. Only certain positions have a huge affect on the game. QB is the big one. DL is another. LT is another. LBs (outside of pass-rushing 34 OLBS) and DBs simply do not tend to affect the game nearly as much as those positions. WR and RB are even worse. That is why you don’t see those positions drafted that high too often.
The Bills have proven that drafting WRs, CBs, and RBs, (the 3 positions that consistently affect the game the least) does not win you games. Drafting Peterson when there are DL prospects who are better, and play a much much much much much much much much much much much more important position in terms of football would me moronically stupid. That said it’s likely the Bills draft a CB or WR at 3.
Draft some stud DL guys and watch Leo turn into a Revis, and Florence and MCGee also become better.
The way to build a top pass D is the pass rush, not the other way around.
I pretty much agree, but the Bills literally have drafted poorly at EVERY position, including CB, RB, WR...Actually you could say WR (Lee Evans) was one of our only 1st round picks in the last 10 years to actually help the team...He just never had any help (QB or another WR/TE to draw coverage). Also, I don't think you can say those positions don't help you win games. Just to name a few, these guys are the best players on their team, and are game changers...Chris Johnson, Adrian Peterson, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Darelle Revis...Say what you want, these guys can single handedly win games.
I am off topic though...like you said, with our front 7 needs, we do not want Peterson
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Perhaps but that simply means people are being ridiculous. A lock down corner is a big deal.
Not when we have some secondary depth right now, that was our strong point the last few years. We have NO depth, or even starters for that matter, at LB or DL...
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40 times are so overblown. Good 3-4 teams don't usually prioritize having great CB's anyway, because they get to the QB. A good pass rush makes it a lot easier on the CB's. We desperately need front 7 help, or a QB, more than anything. There is plenty of top notch front 7 talent available, we don't need another McKelvin right now...
If Peterson is picked at #3, this board will explode.
If Peterson is picked at #3, 1 Bills Drive might explode...
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The problem a 3-4 team faces taking a DE this high is return on the investment. KC took Tyson Jackson 3rd a few years ago, and while's he's OK, what kind of impact does a really good 3-4 DE make? Considering the salary, it's not worth it unless you're getting a Bruce Smith. Third is too high for a rush LB, and there aren't any top OT's going third either (not that Nix likes taking OT's).
Nix/Gailey/Wannstedt know they don't have the horses to be a 34, nor can they rush the passer with their existing 43 DE's. And as much as Nix says they're drafting for a 34, they used 2 top 75 picks last year on players to fit that scheme. Taking a DE this high is using premium resources on a position they've theoretically already drafted for.
This is not an anti-Cam Jordan thing as much as it is a staffing issue. It'd be nice if the Bills were a 4-3 defense and/or there was a QB worthy of the third pick. They might be the former, but there isn't any QB to fit the latter.
Ive seen the Tyson Jackson argument before. Last I checked the chiefs had a pretty good defense last year, and made the playoffs. True a 3-4 DE doesn't usually get a ton of glory and sacks, but that doesn't mean they are unimportant. The bottom line is the bills desperately need capable DE's and a NT to keep the opposing OL off of the LB's.
Saying that the Bills shouldn't take a DE at 3 because KC took Tyson Jackson (who I'm sure the Bills would love right now anyway), Is like saying a team shouldn't ever draft a QB at 1 because of Jamarcus Russell...
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So the guy the Bills should be targeting then is Adrian Clayborn?
And next is JJ Watt (that one I can see)?
Oddly enough these guys ran slow 40 times, to go with their relatively quick shuttle times...
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Great, the Bills can draft him with our 5th round pic and then be blasted by the media for this being a reach. That said, our last few "reaches" really have been busts, so may the media is onto something.
Yeah, its one thing to "reach" for a respected and coveted player early on, it's another thing to reach for guys like JP Losman, McCargo (Many had him going in the 3rd), and Maybin...Or to draft anyone that Oakland ever drafted in the 1st...
The media is just stating the obvious...well, obvious to everyone except the Bills front office...
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Combine #'s are just that...#'s. And they are always overblown. For WR's and CB's the 40 time has some bearing, but only some. Running a good 40 requires not only speed, but good technique as well. A player could be lighting fast on the field, but run a mediocre 40 due to poor "track" technique. How many times a player can bench press 225 doesn't translate to how he will use his strength and leverage on the field. These #'s are interesting (Paea with 49 bench press reps?!? Typo? Is that humanly possible?), but don't drastically change what I think of a player.
There is always so much hype about what a player does at the combine, but it should be about what they did on the field. Jordan was an absolute monster on the field. He has great size and long arms. Regardless of what his 40 or shuttle time is, how many presses he does, how high he can jump...this guy will be good at the next level. Actually, I think he is likely to be a better pro player than Fairly (At DE anyway, Fairly could be a Warren Sapp type of 4-3 penetrating tackle). I'd wouldn't be disappointed if we took Jordan.
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How good is he at baseball? If one has a choice between the two, he'd be a fool to choose football.
Re: the comparisons to Losman, they're way off. Losman was criticized for his leadership and intelligence in college, not for his accuracy. It's actually the reverse for Locker. I'm not advocating drafting him, but I can see him turning into a good pro -- a souped up and more athletic version of Fitzpatrick.
Where are you getting that Losman was known more for his leadership and "intelligence"? I spent a lot of time reviewing articles about him when he was drafted. They were all dominated by talk about his "cannon arm and mobility", VERY similar to the talk about Locker. The only difference is, Losman looked better (scary) and Locker has a lot more hype.
Fitz is more of a solidly built, intelligent, well balanced QB, not known for a particularly strong arm or any flash. I just don't see it.
As a matter of fact, Losman could have been a decent QB if he was a little smarter and quick thinking. His problem was it took him way to long to figure out what to do with the ball, leading to sacks, fumbles, and a lot of obscenities at 1 Bills Drive...Much like Rob Johnson actually...
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They wont win the SB. I predict Rex Ryan will pass in the off-season, after choking on the prime rib he was eating off of his wifes feet...
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I do. I'm just saying that he shouldn't be written off so quickly. I still would prefer Ponder to Locker. Just merely pointing out that he could be a steal in the 2nd if he shows that he's improved his footwork.
Both of these guys really scare me. Ponder is like another Rex Grossman to me, and as others have said, Locker looks like JP.
This is just my opinion obviously, but Newton is the only QB that seems worth the risk in this draft. Other than that, lets look for D in the first round and hope for a right tackle or more D in the second round.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah people want to say he's innaccurate but the kid didn't even have a QB coach at Washington until his Junior year.
It's believed that his accuracy issues stem from having footwork problems. He's been working with a QB coach leading up to the draft to work on his work.
Here he is at the combine talking about what he hopes to accomplish and what he's been working. He seems humble, well spoken, and hard working. He has great arm strength, freakish speed for a QB, and is a natural leader. His only issue is accuracy and decision making which can be worked on. Bottom line is that he'd be a steal at 34 (if he makes it there) given his potential. He's worked in a pro style offense and doesn't have any baggage or off the field issues.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/09000d5d81e77291/Locker-d-and-loaded
I know what you are getting at, the guy is an athlete and last year was considered a possible #1 pick. Getting him later in the draft sounds like a "deal". But there is a reason why he is dropping...he's all hype. It's great to have speed and athleticism, but without talent it's pretty useless at the QB position. Accuracy and decision making are the 2 most important things I wan't in a QB, those are not the things we should be hoping we can fix later. I always hear people talking about trying to "fix" QB's problems at the next level, I almost never hear about it succeeding...The Bills aren't the type of team that can gamble on a guy that looks bad before he even gets here. Trent Edwards was another QB that was supposed to be "great" and was just stuck on a bad team...
I would feel better about picking him up in the 3rd round, saving the first 2 rounds for the defense. Locker has the eerily similar feel to JP(rocket arm quick feet), and it's hard to want to go down that road again, no matter your stance on who was to blame for JP Losman's failure to develop. (I blamed 3 parts coaching, 1 part JP)
And I thought JP was another Rob Johnson...I think we've had enough of them for now...
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Well this was a good thread, but now its just simply arguing about arguing...on to the next...
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I'm extremely confused as to what part of my response gives you that notion:
We'll have to agree to disagree on their playing styles, as I don't see the same dominance from Quinn against the run as you do. In fact, from reading up profiles on Quinn (since I haven't seen him play in over a year), it looks like run defense is one of the concerns; I cite:
http://www.nfl.com/c...bs:tab-analysis
As for whether or not he can play 3-4 OLB, I haven't seen many analysts say that Quinn belongs there (if you have, please show me, as I'd be interested in reading their justification). Most recently (in a thread that was linked to on this board), I saw Mayock say that Quinn was better suited to play in a 4-3, which is how I've always felt; it's long, but check it out:
http://fifthdown.blo...hts-on-combine/
And no, I never claimed to know more than anyone else, but unless I'm mistaken, my opinion on the subject isn't taboo.
Regarding how he's a risk, if you feel comfortable taking a player who's first pre-season snap will be his down of competitive football in 19 months, then I'm afraid we fundamentally disagree on the definition of "risk". Also, see my previous post for a list of other reasons I think he's a risk.
I expressed a different opinion, and mentioned that I'd be interested in reading the opinions of those analysts that you said believed Quinn would be a good fit as a 3-4 OLB (which you apparently aren't interested in providing as backup to your assertion). How is that trying to force you to agree? Perhaps it was the part where I said "we'll have to agree to disagree", man, that was really forceful of me.
I'm pretty sure that--in my last post--I also complimented your willingness to engage in a real discussion, but apparently that was taken as me trying to force my opinion on you.You told me you didn't understand why I felt Quinn was a risk, so I explained myself...too forceful? Sorry, I didn't mean for it to be. I suppose next time I'll ignore your request for an explanation; please don't consider me rude if I do so.
Here, I'll bite. I've attached a few articles that support my OPINION that Quinn will make a great 3-4 LB. I won't link every mock draft I've looked at, but most have him going to a 3-4 team.
http://www.nfldraftbible.com/Players/List/2012-Big-Board/Robert-Quinn.html
http://redskinsdraft.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/robert-quinn/
My point is, this is all opinion until he actually plays in the NFL. We can find articles all day long that support different opinions, you have responded to almost every post in this thread disagreeing with them. I get it, you don't wan't Quinn at No 3. Some of us do...
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Let me ask you this: if Buffalo selects a player at No. 3 overall that proves to be a great defender, a game changer, guy that other teams have to account for every time he's on the field, will you care if his name is Von Miller, Robert Quinn, Patrick Peterson, or Joe Blow? I know I won't.
No, if we draft Von Miller, or some no name loser, and he ends up being a super star I would be thrilled regardless of who it is. But since we don't know what is going to happen, we can only offer our opinions on who WE think will be the best player for the Bills. As far as the defenders go, IMO it's Quinn. I even think he's a safer pick then Fairly. I am not at all concerned about Quinn not playing last year, because he was so dominant in every way and its not like it was due to injury. It is quite possible that Quinn won't even be there for us to take. If other people think differently I'm open to their thoughts, since none of us will be the ones deciding anyway.
I won't respond to the other stuff because it's clear you won't allow an opinion that differs from yours, creating and endless string of replies. It seems like you are trying to force people to agree with you, but that's not how opinion works...
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i was more offended by vick abusing dogs. but i think big ben is more of a scumbag, if that makes sense.
That does make sense, Ben is clearly a scumbag...Where as Vick is just sick in the head, and lacking intelligence.
they are almost feral- bred to battle. it's still not right IMO, but more understandable and completely different than the psycho kid who tortures his neighbor's cat.
This part doesn't make so much sense. How is maiming and torturing a dog any better or worse than killing other small animals for fun?
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I just did. As far as rushing the passer goes anyway. I think he could make a very solid 4-3 Will though. But I doubt thats what he is drafted to do, and will thus be a bust.
I'm not arguing with you...I don't want VM either. Quinn looks the real deal. I might even be ok with taking a risk on Newton.
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What do you assume the psychopathic Vick will be arrested for that will land him back in jail? You sound like a hater dude.
I guarantee the majority of Bills fans would love to have traded for Vick a year ago after watching his play this year. You can harp over the dog fighting that Michael Vick participated in the past for so long before you come off as a hater. Obviously, the guy has changed and moved on from those days.
That's fine, I am a hater. The guy is a sick dirt bag, you won't catch me rooting for him. And its not about the dog fighting for me, its about the sick torture and abuse he did to these animals repeatedly and just for fun. He played great last year I won't dispute that, but it didn't get them any farther than McNabb. Besides, regardless of the criminal stuff, I would say "no thanks" to another injury prone player that has almost no chance of playing a full year without getting hurt.
"obviously, the guy has changed" Really? What is so obvious about that? You think he really "changed", or is playing along for the MILLIONS of dollars and his career?...
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Don’t disregard Quinn’s individual play by saying he had other good players on his team. Other players don’t affect how he stands up an OT 1 on 1, and keeps outside leverage. It doesn’t affect how he tracks down a ball carrier with his backside pursuit (Miller doesn’t do that FYI) You absolutely can evaluate a players ability to defend the run in how ha wins or loses his 1 v 1 matchups. You can also see if he knows he responsibilities, and if he plays good team defense regardless of how the rest of his team plays.
And I completely disagree with Miller. Most everyone has already admitted he is a liability against the run when he has to hold up at the point of attack. So right there he is only a pass rusher, a 3rd down player. And that’s assuming you think he can rush the passer. . I think it’s so crazy-obvious that he will not generate a pass rush in the NFL (whether your agree or not is the argument I guess). His approach to getting the the QB is flawed for the NFL, and time and time again its been proven not to work. Even just watching the highlights of both players you can see it. Quinn can engage the OT, generate a push, bench him off to disengage, then get to the QB. Miller is screwed if he engages the OT. The OT swallows him up and tosses him around like a wet noodle. If Miller doesn’t get a quick jump off the ball and cant run past the OT clean, he isn’t getting pressure. That’s what Maybin did in college too – and look how good he is now. Aaron Miller and Von Maybin are extremely similar pass rushers, and if we take Aaron Miller to be a 3-4 pass rusher, then we aren’t getting a pass rusher.
I’m sorry but there are 7 front 7 defenders that could go at 3 and wouldn’t be too much of a reach according to the experts (Fariley, Dareus, Bowers, Watt, C Jordan, Quinn and Miller). Im sure that every single one of them will be good, but Von Maybin is going to be the one that isn’t, and I just freaking know that’s who we are going to take. Then Quinn will go on to make the PB his rookie year and I will just freaking lose it. The only player these idiots will take over Maybin 2 is Peterson and he also just happens to be the 2nd most over rated player out there. I am so tired of this C rate FO I am going mad. The sooner Ralph moves on and a new Owner moves the team or goes Pegula on the FO the better.
Sorry for the rant.
Haha, I think that is a common fear. I won't go as far as to say VM won't succeed in the NFL, it's just not not who the Bills need defensively right now. We need a 4 down, powerful, athletic, productive player that is going to make plays against the run and the pass.
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Quinn, to me, looks like a prototype 4-3 DE, but I think he'd be miscast as a 3-4 OLB.
While I'm not here to debate Miller's ability as an OLB in the NFL, keep in mind that 2 of the best in James Harrison and Elvis Dumervil are of very similar size to Miller (they're listed at 242 and 248, respectively, while Miller is listed at 243 on the NFL's combine page).
EDIT: Interestingly enough, the NFL combine page lists Quinn at 254 lbs...guess we'll have to see what he weighs in at in order to be sure.
Also, regarding Quinn, it's easier to look strong against the run when you've got the support of NFL talent like Austin, Sturdivant, and Carter playing alongside you in the front 7.
Like I said, I think he'll be a very good player, but he's at least as big a risk as Miller--a guy who's not only played OLB in a 3-4 before, but also was the most productive pass rusher in the nation over the last 2 seasons--at No. 3 overall.
It's pretty easy to twist numbers to try and make a point. Both Dumervil and Harrison are relatively short for their position (5-10-11 - 248 , 6-0 - 242) and are physical beasts that are not comparable to Miller (6-3 - 237). I am not saying Miller isn't good, but he just simply isn't that kind of player, he is mostly speed and quickness, not power. Also, Dumervil was listed at 257 before joining the NFL. I am focusing more on the type of player, the combination of power and speed, not just speed. Regardless of who played around him, Quinn dominated the line of scrimmage with speed and power, against run and pass. Miller has great speed, but often got shut down in plays where his speed rush didn't work, and especially against the run.
"Quinn, to me, looks like a prototype 4-3 DE, but I think he'd be miscast as a 3-4 OLB." Based on what? NFL scouts seem to think he'd make a fine 3-4 LB. You know more than them?
I guess I just don't understand how Quinn is a risk compared to the other possible picks. Actually to me he looks the safest out of all the possible #3 choices we are discussing. I'm sure Miller will be fine in the NFL, but the Bills don't need more small fast guys (the Dick Jauron guys). They need Big, strong, fast guys (Quinn)
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I think Quinn is going to be a good player, but for me, he's an even greater risk than Von Miller--the other pass rusher that's been hotly debated on this board.
Think of it this way: if you're Buddy Nix, and you have to get this pick right, how can you possibly feel comfortable about drafting a guy with 1 productive season, who played in the ACC (not exactly a source of NFL-caliber competition), who produced 8 of his 11 sacks in that season in only 3 games, with off-field issues (whether you think they're serious or not, they're there), who's never played in a 3-4, benefitted from playing on a loaded defense (NFL prospects like Bruce Carter, Quan Sturdivant, Marvin Austin, and Deunta Williams), and who is 15 months removed from having played his last snap of competitive football?
Like I said, I do think he'll be a good player, but this player is hardly the slam-dunk that many here are making him out to be.
That is a pretty tough argument to buy. Von Miller weighs 35-40 pounds less, and Quinn has similar or possibly more speed. True Miller played in a 3-4, but it is doubtful that at ~235 lbs he would be able to play OLB in the NFL, he would probably play ILB in a 3-4. Also, plenty of great top round talent has come out of the ACC..Julius Peppers, Mario Williams...When Quinn was playing he showed very rare domination, not just against the pass, but against the run too. Miller got pushed around when he wasn't speed rushing, especially against the run. I can't emphasize this enough, not only does Quinn have rare talent, but its combined with rare athleticism and size...Something the Bills desperately need...
Many of the great 3-4 OLB's today were 4-3 DE's in college. Ware, Suggs, ect...
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its so stupid how people say oh he was suspended so he has major character issues!!! dont take him. there are many many different cases and not all are the same. AJ green was suspended for selling HIS jersey i repeat HIS OWN JERSEY for $1000. Nebraska sold multiple game worn jerseys at the same time but they kept the $. what does this teach the players. its ok for us not for you so your suspended? its weak.
Quinn has also been labled a strong team leader who leads by example and his play. always in the gym as well. hes credited that with his recovering from the brain tumor his senior year in highschool. teammates and coaches love the kid.
im not %100 but i think he was part of that group of players who went to cali for training and the agent paid for it or something like that.
i think he would be a great player for the bills
I agree that college rules are too strict, and Quinn shouldn't be judged as a "bad guy" because of the suspension....However the AJ green thing was just STUPID. AJ HAD to have known the selling property provided to him by the team for money during the season was against the rules (and if he didn't, he is even dumber than I thought). I have no doubt he did this knowing the rules.
Again, having said that I'd still be happy with AJ on my team
Who cares about character at this point, we need TALENT! Trent was a great high character guy...too bad he SUCKED.
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The beauty of picking 3 is that there's no real bad player right now. If you think about it, the Bills can't really screw it up.
I wish that were true, but have you followed the Bills over the last 10 years? If there is one thing the Bills do "well" it's F up their 1st round draft pick... I have been trained by Ralph Wilson's front office to believe the Bills will take the WORST possible player at #3...And I'll believe that until I'm proven wrong...
Having said that, Quinn is a beast and I hope we take him
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Rumors Of Ben's sex misconduct have been floating since he was in college. He is a bad guy. If he was not making mega millions because he was blessed with football genes, he would likly be in prison or an ex-con.
Vick is no saint, for sure, but rape is ugly and to me, where there are several instances of smoke, there is a fire.
If Ben was convicted of, or even charged with rape I'll agree with you. The problem is there is no proof then Ben ever raped anyone, or ever tried. The accusation was sexual assault, which is different and was still unproven. Regardless, Ben is a scumbag and should be castrated, no question.
My point is, being a scumbag doesn't necessarily make you a criminal. You'd be surprised, I bet a lot people here who drink or go the bars are borderline "Ben" when they are drunk.
Vick is without question a criminal, with a sick, twisted thought process. He is also surrounded by other scumbags such as his brother.
Can't we just hate them both? The scary thing is, there was talk about the Bill's possibly trading for BOTH of these guys last year...
----Great thread by the way. This sparked some serious debate, and is a change of pace from the endless "who should we draft?" posts...---
Patrick Peterson runs a 4.32 Forty at the Combine
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted · Edited by Turbosrrgood
Call me a pessimist, but there is no saying whether the player Ralph and Co. draft at #3 will be "great". Have any of our other recent top picks been "great"? Good even? Mediocre? Heck, how many are still on the team? What about Mike Williams at No 4...lol
Just saying...I'll believe it when I see it...