Shanahan's Horseshoe
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Posts posted by Shanahan's Horseshoe
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Well the reason i think we played alot of man under is because we were playing shifted over to there weak side...leaving POZ in alot of man responsibility thru out most of the game........
In man under coverage the Safties still have deep responsibility....Its just leaves your underneath coverage(CB's and MLB in man coverage, while your other two defenders(LB's or LB/NB) shift the weak side....
Your saying we mixed in alot of deep zone coverages....but what deep zone coverage do you think we played thru out that game??
If the Bills are playing strong on the WS of the offense, dont you think the Cards would have audibled out of whatever play they were in and run away from our overshifted defense? I think so. Plus, the cards run a lot of even sets.
Again, you rarely run man under when you are anticipating 4 or 5 guys in a pattern, it just doesnt make sense because you are going to have LB's on WRs. The only time the Bills are going to run man under is when we are blitzing which we we did not do that game.
We ran all deep zone stuff, T2, C3 and quarters. Warner completed 33 passes for only 260. He would've averaged way more per completion if we were in man. Everything was underneath and in space and since in the C2 is all short zones and takes away the run after the catch, we had to be in deeper coverages.
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Im pretty sure in the Arizona game we played alot of man under coverage...
If the Bills were in Man Under, why did we not blitz that game? You don't play man under when the offense has 4 or 5 guys in the pattern like the Cards did. What is the point then? Two men playing over the top when the WR's are running across the field doesnt make sense. Do you think we had Poz and Mitchell in man because they werent blitzing? Again, we played a lot of Deep Zone stuff in that game.
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You make good and interesting points. What would be your suggestions on what the Bills could/should do differently?
Believe it or not, I think our D did what it had to do to win that game. The mistakes and turnovers killed us yesterday. Sure TGJR looked like JRice out there yesterday, but we held their running game in check and neutralized that gimmicky Wildcat. I actually think if we played a little MORE cover 2, we would have been more effective in stopping Ginn. But if you ask a few on this board, all we play is Cover 2 which is laughable. Our blitz packages were pretty effective when they were dialed up but I think they were very situational and to few.
The Arizona game was an exact replica of the Florda/OSU Championship game. We played DEEP ZONE COVERAGES NOT COVER 2, the cards caught the ball underneath and our LB's were left in space against WR's and RB's. Unfortunatley, lateral speed is not the strength our LB's. I thought that PF blew that game all by himself. We should have gone Jim Johnson and blitzed on every other play!
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I don't think you guys understand exactly why whitner/simpson aren't "playmakers."
So, let me explain...
Instead of bitching about whitner not being a playmaker, how about you try understanding exactly what our defense is trying to accomplish? In about 90% of our arizona/miami/chargers plays, we ran the simple cover 2 scheme, with the exception of corners playing about 8 yards off the ball, who knows why???. SAFETIES DEEP, 4 man rush, lbs cover middle zones, and corners cover the sidelines.
Now that I've explained that, it is easy for people to understand why whitner/simpson aren't making the big, ballhawking plays. Fewell/Jauron have decided at some point that they are best off telling donte/ko to just sit back there and be conservative SAFETIES. Fewell really uses that term literally.
As to the CBs, Fewell inexplicably tells them to get about 8 yards off the ball, and keep everything in front of them. In theory, it makes sense keeping everything in front of you, but not when teams take advantage of that literally all game long, like warner, rivers, and pennington did.
When we get no pass rush(which is every time we dont blitz), it forces everything to look easy, and it makes quarterbacking against us very easy, especially compared to teams like the giants. How could Warner have possibly thrown a pick to whitner? He had all day to pick apart our defense, and as a professional, thats what he did.
Now, pretty much every DB has taken some heat from you guys, with the exception of greer. Well, its not their individual problem that they arent making plays, it is the problem of the coaching ideas. If we sit in one play all game, then yeah, teams will pick us apart. Yeah, Leodis's coverage won't be amazing looking if hes sitting in a soft zone.
If you want McKelvin/Whitner to go and make big plays, then take it up with Fewell. Tell him to let our two TOP PICKS do their things. Let leodis get in man coverage, see what he can do. Let Whitner roam around a little more, and leave the deep ball a little more open. Look at what happened on Greer's INT, he followed his MAN across the field and made an individual play.
With all of that said, I completely disagree with Fewell's strategies, I actually think that they directly cost us the arizona game, almost cost us the san diego game, and in part cost us the Miami game. He really needs to grow a set of balls and trust our HIGHLY DRAFTED, TALENTED PLAYERS to make plays. Until he does that, smart qbs will pick us apart all game long.
BUT, don't start taking shots at the individual players for their "shortcomings." I'm sure it wouldn't take too long for whitner to get a pick if he played on the giants or the packers, or for mckelvin to get one playing on the chargers. But, they play for the bills, where we run the same unsuccessful play all game long.
And just to make it clear, we still can improve, I'm not one of those people saying we'll be 5-11. We really should rock the jets this week, but we do need to fix the problems I mentioned above.
By the way, if your main memories of whitner are chasing higgins and ginn, then you must edit out all the tackles he's made when you're watching your film. He has more important tackles than anyone on our defense, outside of paul. So turn the tape back on and watch the games, and get back to me.
Whitner can play, don't doubt that whatsoever. He's every bit as important to this defense as paul or anyone else.
Thoughts?
I just wrote about this on another thread but I guess I will tell you that your wrong on your own post and this had nothig to do with Donte.
Do we run a Cover 2 Scheme? Yes, but it our BASE DEFENSE! That does not mean we run the same scheme on every play or in every game. The truth is, we probably run a C2 about 50% of the time. We play a ton of man coverage mixed in with different zone coverages. (Cover 3, quarters)
Now, onto the Cardinals game. We barely palyed any C2!!!! PF said so himself! We played a ton of deep zone (C3 and Qters) to protect Mckelvin. If we were in a C2 we would have not been beat underneath on every play. Warner was getting the ball to his guys underneath the coverage at about 3-7 yards and letting them run in space (see the Ohio ST. v Florida National Championship game). THERE IS NO SPACE UNDERNEATH IN A C2! The Lb's and Cb's are in short zones!
As for the Miami game, I would bet we played C2 less than half of the time. B Scott was up near the LOS all day! TGJR was beating TM in man under coverage (Saftey over the top, man underneath) , if we were in a T2, TM is rolled up and the passes are not completed! And please explain this to me, how do you defend against the Wildcat playing a C2 defense? YOU DONT! Our LB's were playing at the LOS, corners moved up and safties were either blitzing or very shallow. You dont beat the Wildcat playing in a base 7 because you cannot account for all of the possabilities.
Before you try to lecture everybody on the defense, at least know what your talking about. Dont you think the Bills would be really easy to gameplan against if they played the base D all of the time?
And remember, John Lynch, Bob Sanders and Mike Brown have all been Pro Bowlers in this style of defense...so there is oppurtunity for plays to be made.
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I'd like some of the people in this thread to check out my thoughts in another thread that I started about our DB's. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
Gee thanks PF Jr.! Here is where you are WRONG. The Bills BASE DEFENSE is a cover 2 system, which you explained...sort of. Its not the Defense that we are in on every play or else teams would be picking at the deep corners and middle 3rd all day long. Take the Arizona game, the Bills were playing a ton of cover 3 and quarters to protect Mcelvin and that is why AZ torched us underneath getting the ball to their WR's in space. There is no space underneath in a C2! During yestdays game the Bills were playing a ton of man under and that is why TGJR was beating TM all over the field and our safties were no where near the ball when he was catching it because they were playing over the top most of the time. If we were in a C2 defense, TM would have been rolled up in that zone and had more than a few to take to the house. So enough with the "we play a cover 2 defense" because B. Scott and Donte were in the box a ton yesterday and you cant defend against the Wildcat in a C2 base, you will get run over.
On to Donte, I thought he was one of the few Bills to show up yesterday. He kept TGJR from taking it to the house and made some solid tackles around the line of scrimmage. There was the "Pennington Pancake" but hey, you cant be perfect on everyplay. The problem is his postgame comments. He always has something to say. Most of the great talkers in this league like TO, Chad, Shannon Sharpe, Deon, Ray Lewis and even Phillip Rivers back it up with top notch play. DW does not perform at a high level. He is a jack of all trades and a master of none. He is always healthy. He holds Nintendo tourney's at his house and pays for the pizza. If he would just shut up and play the game, I dont think anyone would have a problem with him. Hell, no one mentions Kelsey or K Williams name on this board. Why? Because they go out there, perform steadily and go home and prepare for the next game! But because DW has to always talk, he opens himself up for criticism. That being said, I thought he played his best game of the year yesterday...I just wish he would shut up!
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Donte has some special plans for him in Toronto.
All Donte does is talk! Please Donte, instead of planning your next postgame comments, GO OUT THERE AND MAKE A PLAY!!!!
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we need to replace ellison. Brian Cushing anyone?
He would be a great addition, he's a northeast guy, he had a monster sophmore year as a DE. He has shown great versatility by moving back to LB and dominating there as well. Two birds with one stone anyone?
As far as Ellison goes, he actually made some plays at the point of attack yesterday. But he is what he is, a backup WLB playing the SLB keeping the seat warm for someone next year.
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When playing a high power offense, they are going to score. You need your offense to sustain drives to your D can get some breathers, and to keep the opposing O off the field. When you consistantly going 3 and out, 6 and out, you are putting your D in a horrible position.
Again, why make excuses for the D? Are you telling me that the D was to tired to sack one of the NFL's most sacked QB's? Do you forget that Mike Gandy was playing LT that game. They could not cause one TO against a team that was turning the ball over in bunches before that game? Would you not agree that the D should NOT be exhausted in the first half when the Cards put 24 on us in cosecutive drives? Come on! Take a look at the drive chart and show me where the Bills could have sustained drives. When Fowler whiffed on his guy? Should JP not have gone to the bomb so early in the drive? Is an 8 play TD drive bad? The Bills had TWO POSSESSIONS in the 3rd quarter, one was a scoring drive and the other was a ROYAL FUMBLE...ON THE FIRST PLAY OF THE DRIVE!!! HOW DO YOU SUSTAIN A DRIVE WHEN YOUR DEFENSE CANT GET OFF OF THE FIELD? Maybe if Donte could make a play for ONCE! One ESPN highlight type play in the 1st half of that game and we have a shot! And for all of you who say that we want ESPN Highlight plays out of Donte, did you watch SC this morning? I saw Mitchell with a pick and a sack that won the game. WHEN HAS DONTE EVEN COME CLOSE TO DOING THAT? NOTHING RIGHT? GOOD, SHUT UP DONTE AND PLAY THE GAME- LET JP POUT ON THE BENCH- AND MAKE A F
ING PLAY FOR ONCE IN YOUR CAREER!!!!!!!!!!Buffalo Drive Summaries
START QTR POSS. YARD PLAYS YARDS RESULT
15:00 1 02:37 BUF 25 5 13 Fumble
09:52 1 03:57 BUF 20 6 25 Punt
14:15 2 02:06 BUF 17 3 83 Touchdown?
05:51 2 04:05 BUF 37 8 63 Touchdown ?
12:38 3 03:03 BUF 44 5 26 Field Goal?
02:28 3 00:00 BUF 34 1 13 Fumble?
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Hey Donte, did you see K.Mitchell actually go out there and make a play? You win games by causing turnovers and not letting the offense run past you. The game is not won on Thursday night at your house, during your pre or post game comments or making a tackle 10 yards deep in the end zone after the WR blows past you! What a joke, to make JP a scapegoat for an AWFUL defense and a poor gameplan. How about calling out the Dline? Or PF? How about taking a look at yourself because I have never heard a true leader make a comment about a BACKUP QB like that. Gee Donte, if you the lose "leadership" part of your game, what else do you got?
Why are we even talking about JP, he is a BACKUP! Trent is a future star! Donte is a blowhard! Enough said!
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ricky runs the ball
ricky prefers to pull tubes
he is a stoner
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I guess I thought it was directed at me, as you mentioned me, in the post, at least three times. You didn't bother to use separate paragraphs to separate your buses of thought (let's face it, your thought process never makes it to train speed), so I'm not sure how I wouldn't think it was directed at me.
You see, I don't take this board all that seriously, but I did take my education fairly seriously.
When Mensa was reviewing your application , were they impressed by your 11,000 posts in 6 years?
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Hmm...let's see how the newbie here likes to post.
He disagrees with a poster, so calls him names and insults his football intelligence. Well done!
And let me get this one thing straight: Because someone (not me) posted that Donte will go down as one of the greatest Bills, it makes you think that I know nothing about football. Very interesting logic you got there, rook.
The Dean(The Donte), that was not a shot at you but I can see how you took it that way so I apologize.
Rook? I guess, but it seems to me that you are taking this message board a little to serious. Nice deflection though.
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The Dean(The Donte), you are obviously a member of the Whitner family. You defend him as if you have money invested in him. That being said, the Ngata argument is old. Ngata is very obviously the better player and he is a Raven. The Dean(The Donte) made me realize something about DW a while back. We should not judge him on where he was picked but what he does on the field. The fact is DW has done very little to make an impact on the field. He is steady and average. But what I finally realized is that the Bills know that he has major limitations as well. They dont use him in blitz packages and rarely use him around the line of scrimmage anymore because these are not his strenghts. His strenghts are letting things happen in front of him and filling in for the run 5 yards down field. And while The Dean(The Donte) will make ridiculous arguments like, Donte is not PUT in position to make plays(?) or he has missed very few games, this does not make him a great player. I think what confuses and frustrates the critics of DW is the adoration that he recieves from fans and local media for simply being a leader. The mere fact that someone posted that he will go down as one of the "greatest Bills" makes me think that you know nothing about football. The thought of his name even being mentioned with the likes of Bruce, Jimbo, Thurman, OJ(YEAH, OJ!), Ted Washington, Bennett, Reed, Tasker, Gilchrist, Shaw, Joe D.....get it?
So to all of the DW critics, we need to get over the fact that Ngata is not a Bill and that DW is our Leader, not an 8th pick impact, game-changing-pro-bowler!!!
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No, but the fact that many people around the league consider him to be one, does.
What "people"? Leader does not equal "star".
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Really not that hard, although TE might be 2md most difficult position on team, a veteran already know how to read coverages and can be told the correct route to run by QB, hardest part will be understanding run scheme and pass protections.
I hate to disagree with you on this one but... TE might be one of the easiest positions to learn on the field. Blocking is fairly simple to pick up because TEnds are usually "open", meaning they are the last one on the line. And since TE's normaly dont pull/trap, their man is very easy to identify especially in a zone blocking scheme. Routes for TE's are also very to pick up because they are limited in any scheme. Some vertical/combo but mostly simple underneath routes and having the ability to find the holes in the zone and sit. If we get TG in here tomorrow, he will be on the field all day long on Sunday. We are playing an oppenent that he is very familiar with and he is obviously in game shape. Very excited that we are even in the hunt for a guy like this!
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"hit me the porterhouse and drag it through the garden"
I'll have steak and salad
Thats GREAT!!!
"Excuse me Bro, what it is holmes?"
-Clark Grizzwald
Somewhere in St. Louis
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did you copy thid from the profootball talk website?
No-I'm BonerChamp on PFT. Name came from the first episode of The Office this year. I was waiting for someone to call me out on that though!
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Can I get a translation here?
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It would make sense for the Bills to trade for Gonzo since Statler and Waldorf run the front office!
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Someone jog my memory, what was it we gave up to move up to draft Losman?
Doin the Bull dance, feelin the flow
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Who cares about his stats through 3 quarters?
There are 4 quarters in football.
In hockey there are 3 periods and they never ever award a shutout to a goalie who stops everything for the first two periods.
The point that you are missing is that he played well enough to keep us in the game throught 3 qtrs. The defense gave up points on 7 of the first 8 drives! 5 were TD's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the time the 4th qtr starts, we are down by 3 scores! Again, THE OFFENSE HAD ONLY PUT UP 17 POINTS THROUGH 3 QTRS ONE OTHER TIME THIS WHOLE YEAR! Not against the Raiders, not against the Rams.
If you think Trent, and I love Trent as our QB, would have done anything different YOU ARE AN IDIOT! Would Trent have prevented Jenkins from jumping offsides and prolonging that drive? Would he have prevented Royal from fumbling? Would he have jumped in at D End and stopped the Cards from scoring on 7 of their first 8 drives?
Your hatred for JP is sad and your knowledge of football, or lack there of, is even more sad.
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When he came in the game yesterday I thought we might see a different JP. Trent has shown great quiick decision making JP should been watching some of his game tapes. I am now comletely convinced he will not be good where ever he goes
NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! If only Fred Norris were around to play the sound of someone throwing up!!
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Here are the key points to the whole thread:
1. We can look at this 2 ways
2. Most of the diehard JP fans refuse to look at it 2 ways, they want to look at it only one way
Which way is that ?
Answer: the defense played like crap so it didn't matter anyways.
What is the other way to look at it?
Answer :The offense with Losman at QB only put up 17 points vs arizona, very few defenses can beat arizona if their offense only puts up 17, so it didn't matter how the defense played anyways.
They choose to assign blame to the defense to shield Losman.
But the truth is it can easily be looked the other way around.
Understand that no matter how bad the defense played Losman had his chances to produce.
Funny thing about football is that you get the ball back every time the opponent scores.
And the offense with Losman at the helm only put up 17.
He certain isn't without blame in this loss.
In fact he never gave the defense a chance to win it, did he?
No, he certainly didn't.
How do I look at it?
The defense played like crap, had a very poor gameplan, and did not adjust.
Losman looked like, well Losman, and that's not enough to get it done.
Had the offense sustained and finished some drives Arizona wouldn't have scored 41.
This game was lost on both offense and defense.
I think, no, I know, we would have stood a better chance with Edwards in there.
The Bills had scored on 3 of their first 6 possessions. One was a JP's fumble (even the most diehard JP hater would have to agree that he had nothing to do with that fumble) and the Royal fumble (JP's fault because he probably threw the ball late or there was someone else open downfield) They had TWO possessions in the 3rd qtr.
So lets do the math:
3 scoring drives leaves 3.
2 fumbles leaves one left.
The remaining drive was a 4 minute drive that ended in a punt.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=281005022 (SOURCE)
My point is that the whole "sustained drive" theory makes no sense here...and that JP is a scapgoat for a horrible defensive gameplan.
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I said i was done with this thread...but i had to return to reply to JimmyPage....
This is a classic case of someone not understanding football enough here...He claims the Jets torched the Cards defense...they scored 56 points and we couldnt even score 20....
What he doesnt realize is that,....
The cards turned over the ball 7 times
7 TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If our defense could have stopped them a couple times in the first half...the 4th quarter, were JP and the offense imploded, would have been completely different...
Wait a second YOOOOOOO, there was a very important 7 in this game too.
As in the Cards scored on 7 of their first 8 drives! JP's fault!!!!!!!
I need to change your guys ways of thinking
in The Stadium Wall Archives
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I agree with you that we cannot keep playing scared, just watch the second New England game last year, it doesnt work. But you said that we play C2 90% of the time.
Again, we were not in C2 most of the Miami game. If Scott is up at the LOS, and we are in C2, WHO THE HELL IS PLAYING THAT HALF OF THE DEEP ZONE????? I'm sure Camarillo is fast enough to beat a twelve yard zone on a 5 step drop. You are talking out of your ass again. Plus, we were in man everytime they ran the Wildcat, that is the only way a Defense can defend it.
I do agree we do need to be way more aggressive though.