BELL OTS during OTAs

[zazie]

Haven't heard a whisper about them. Anyone know anything about where they are lining up, 2nd team, or...?

[VJ91]

Haven't heard a whisper about them. Anyone know anything about where they are lining up, 2nd team, or...?

 

First of all, both Bells are extremely young and raw. Demetrius has a year under his belt, but we all know that Joel's odds are about as long as the reach on his 6'8 frame.

 

Despite some comments from some coaches on how Demetrius might compete for the RT spot, it's obvious Brad Butler will be the starter there this season. Unless either or both Bells do amazing thing during training camp and preseason, Demetrius should continue his slow improvement by possibly moving up the depth chart to first tackle off the bench this year. I still have my doubts that Joel will even make the 53 man roster. Joel should be a perfect practice squad player for '09.

[Big Daddy JC]

First of all, both Bells are extremely young and raw. Demetrius has a year under his belt, but we all know that Joel's odds are about as long as the reach on his 6'8 frame.

 

Despite some comments from some coaches on how Demetrius might compete for the RT spot, it's obvious Brad Butler will be the starter there this season. Unless either or both Bells do amazing thing during training camp and preseason, Demetrius should continue his slow improvement by possibly moving up the depth chart to first tackle off the bench this year. I still have my doubts that Joel will even make the 53 man roster. Joel should be a perfect practice squad player for '09.

 

I wouldn't be too quick to kick Joel Bell to to the practice squad. The desire to prove he deserves to be on the team is a great motivator. Having not played football at all until the 11th grade no one thought he could be a starter but he was. with only 2 yrs of experience no one thought he could make an impact at the college level, he became an all american. Going to a smaller school people said he was playing inferior opponents, ask the DEs from CLemson, UNC and Va Tech what they think of his skills. He's always had people telling him he can't do it but he just keeps getting the job done. It all boils down to motivation and personal pride. He's got the size, speed, and agility to do the job. He comes from a BSD school so he hasn't had pro style coaching yet. If he learns quickly, which his 1st wonderlic of 29/40 and is completed college degree (which stands him ahead of half the guys who were drafted) indicates he can, he may surprise you. Also, as shaky as the OL is it would be foolish for the coaching staff to have a pre-set depth chart before the mid point of training camp.

[Lori]

Funny you should ask about Joel Bell. Tyler Dunne just wrote a decent piece about him for the OTH:

http://www.oleantimesherald.com/articles/2...7e099748704.txt

[ChasBB]

Funny you should ask about Joel Bell. Tyler Dunne just wrote a decent piece about him for the OTH:

http://www.oleantimesherald.com/articles/2...7e099748704.txt

Great article -- thanks. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he makes the 53-man roster straight-up. If he studies hard, there's no reason why not. Obviously, he has all of the physical qualities and then some. If he can wrap his mind around NFL football during training camp, there's no reason he can't bypass the practice squad and make the roster.

[zazie]

Great article -- thanks. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he makes the 53-man roster straight-up. If he studies hard, there's no reason why not. Obviously, he has all of the physical qualities and then some. If he can wrap his mind around NFL football during training camp, there's no reason he can't bypass the practice squad and make the roster.

Would be greta to have both tackles starting in a couple of years

[DazedandConfused]

I wouldn't be too quick to kick Joel Bell to to the practice squad. The desire to prove he deserves to be on the team is a great motivator. Having not played football at all until the 11th grade no one thought he could be a starter but he was. with only 2 yrs of experience no one thought he could make an impact at the college level, he became an all american. Going to a smaller school people said he was playing inferior opponents, ask the DEs from CLemson, UNC and Va Tech what they think of his skills. He's always had people telling him he can't do it but he just keeps getting the job done. It all boils down to motivation and personal pride. He's got the size, speed, and agility to do the job. He comes from a BSD school so he hasn't had pro style coaching yet. If he learns quickly, which his 1st wonderlic of 29/40 and is completed college degree (which stands him ahead of half the guys who were drafted) indicates he can, he may surprise you. Also, as shaky as the OL is it would be foolish for the coaching staff to have a pre-set depth chart before the mid point of training camp.

The argument you lay put actually seems to demonstrate he would be perfect for the PS, His achievements despite not playing football at any level until recently, his not having been developed in a Pro style O, and his having played against good but not the best college opponents would all seem to argue that he be on the PS where he could spend a year getting this experience rather than throw him (and his QB to the wolves while he takes the time to become a vet,

 

In fact, the risk a team takes when they put him on the PS is that some other team will make him an offer to go onto their active roster, Given the lackings you lay out it seems no other team would want to throw money at him and guarantee s roster spot when what he clearly seems to be lacking is experience,

[zazie]

The argument you lay put actually seems to demonstrate he would be perfect for the PS, His achievements despite not playing football at any level until recently, his not having been developed in a Pro style O, and his having played against good but not the best college opponents would all seem to argue that he be on the PS where he could spend a year getting this experience rather than throw him (and his QB to the wolves while he takes the time to become a vet,

 

In fact, the risk a team takes when they put him on the PS is that some other team will make him an offer to go onto their active roster, Given the lackings you lay out it seems no other team would want to throw money at him and guarantee s roster spot when what he clearly seems to be lacking is experience,

Could he not also get a better offer to join another teams PS? How does that work?

[Big Daddy JC]

The argument you lay put actually seems to demonstrate he would be perfect for the PS, His achievements despite not playing football at any level until recently, his not having been developed in a Pro style O, and his having played against good but not the best college opponents would all seem to argue that he be on the PS where he could spend a year getting this experience rather than throw him (and his QB to the wolves while he takes the time to become a vet,

 

In fact, the risk a team takes when they put him on the PS is that some other team will make him an offer to go onto their active roster, Given the lackings you lay out it seems no other team would want to throw money at him and guarantee s roster spot when what he clearly seems to be lacking is experience,

 

Remember that he signed a 3 yr deal instead of the standard 2 yr contract for UDFAs. 3 yr offers are reserved for prime prospects. The only way the Bills FO(as tight as they are) would shell out for the larger signing bonus that goes with a 3 yr deal is if they were trying to win him in a bidding war. That means that other teams recognize his huge up-side also. I think it's a great risk to try to shepherd him to the practice squad when he could serve the role of a special teams/ short yardage contributor now while he continues to polish his skills. How many threads will get started if he gets snached up by GB or worse yet NE and becomes an all-pro player in 2 yrs. I can hear it now, "ohh how could they be so stipid as to let sombody with that much promise go. I knew we should have kept him"

[zazie]

Remember that he signed a 3 yr deal instead of the standard 2 yr contract for UDFAs. 3 yr offers are reserved for prime prospects. The only way the Bills FO(as tight as they are) would shell out for the larger signing bonus that goes with a 3 yr deal is if they were trying to win him in a bidding war. That means that other teams recognize his huge up-side also. I think it's a great risk to try to shepherd him to the practice squad when he could serve the role of a special teams/ short yardage contributor now while he continues to polish his skills. How many threads will get started if he gets snached up by GB or worse yet NE and becomes an all-pro player in 2 yrs. I can hear it now, "ohh how could they be so stipid as to let sombody with that much promise go. I knew we should have kept him"

Someone else has to go then. Maybe Joel will beat out Demetrious?

[Big Daddy JC]

Someone else has to go then. Maybe Joel will beat out Demetrious?

 

As I said earlier, who on the OL depth chart do you think should have a guaranteed, no-compete lock on a roster slot? Let them all slug it out and earn their position on the active roster. 2008 should only be a model for roster positions if you want the same results in 2009.

[Jeffery Lester]

I have a hunch that by the end of this season Demetrious Bell will be the starting Right Tackle. I am not sure if Butler is the answer long term at right tackle. I hope hope hope he plays well this year. I just think he might have the weakest hold on his position on the O line. I am rooting for who ever plays the best and gives the best shot of winning.

[offde-fence]

As I said earlier, who on the OL depth chart do you think should have a guaranteed, no-compete lock on a roster slot? Let them all slug it out and earn their position on the active roster. 2008 should only be a model for roster positions if you want the same results in 2009.

 

I absolutely agree! How else do you put a fire under everyone's butt if not to say that anyone can become a starter? The veterans have to keep learning and improving and the rookies get the added motivation of a chance to actually play. I think good teams of recent years have shown that the difference between them and everyone else - especially their consistency - isn't the roster, but the coaching. If we've got good raw materials, then with good coaching we should have really good players. Now, as to where they end up - who knows? We don't get to see them in day to day action. I agree, again, that the Bills staff should wait until mid training camp to put together depth charts. Scott as a safety last year just goes to show how good someone other people disregarded can be... and then there's Jason Peters.

[ChasBB]

Doesn't a player have to clear waivers before he can be placed on the practice squad? That would be my main concern -- that some team would claim him.

[zazie]

Doesn't a player have to clear waivers before he can be placed on the practice squad? That would be my main concern -- that some team would claim him.

Could another team claim him for their PS, or would they have to add him to the roster to get him loose from the Bills?

[Big Daddy JC]

Doesn't a player have to clear waivers before he can be placed on the practice squad? That would be my main concern -- that some team would claim him.

 

My point exactly. Imagine how intense the competition should be during camp if everybody knew they were 1 loaf off day away from waivers.

[Tsaikotic]

Could another team claim him for their PS, or would they have to add him to the roster to get him loose from the Bills?

 

practice squad rules

 

a player under contract to a club as a Practice Squad player is completely free to sign a contract with another NFL club during the season in order to be on the second club's Active/Inactive (i.e., 53 man) list. A practice squad player may not sign an NFL Player Contract with his Club’s next opponent later than 4:00 p.m., New York time, on the sixth day preceding the game (except in bye weeks, when the prohibition commences on the tenth day preceding the game).If another club signs a Practice Squad player to its 53 man roster it does not have to provide any sort of compensation to the player's former club but it generally must keep the player on the 53 man roster for at least 3 weeks, thereby mandating that he earns the minimum first year salary for said 3 week period.

 

NFL considers 3 weeks to be a full year, so that way the player would have to make a full years pay of 53 man roster pay

[DazedandConfused]

Remember that he signed a 3 yr deal instead of the standard 2 yr contract for UDFAs. 3 yr offers are reserved for prime prospects. The only way the Bills FO(as tight as they are) would shell out for the larger signing bonus that goes with a 3 yr deal is if they were trying to win him in a bidding war. That means that other teams recognize his huge up-side also. I think it's a great risk to try to shepherd him to the practice squad when he could serve the role of a special teams/ short yardage contributor now while he continues to polish his skills. How many threads will get started if he gets snached up by GB or worse yet NE and becomes an all-pro player in 2 yrs. I can hear it now, "ohh how could they be so stipid as to let sombody with that much promise go. I knew we should have kept him"

Yep. Like life there are risks with just about anything important one does. The question generally is one of managing those risk well to keep liabilities low and to maximize upside opportunities and minimize downside.

 

The Jason Peters case is a good case study (apropos actually since they are both OLers) which I think indicates a lot.

 

Peters and Bell are similar in that they both were athletes with great demographic upsides who as of yet have not made a showing against the highest quality DL opposition to make it a no-brainer to try to lock 'em up contractually.

 

Peters had zero experience as an OL player but showed incredibly soft hands and athleticism to attract interest (it surprised many he went undrafted as a TE prospect. However, what Mouse saw in him that he was the most talented big man he ever coached drew significant interest. Peters appreciated the Bills being willing to sign him after he went UDFA. Likewise, though I am sure Bell is under no illusions that he owes loyalty to the Bills (in this man's game the fact is he does not owe the Bills a ton as yes we gave him a chance, but no we have not committed to him long term though his 3 year deal versus a 2 year deal expresses great interest.

 

Just as Peters could have flown the coop to elsewhere if someone offered him a permanent deal while he was on our PS, other moves made far more sense when opponents came sniffing around. Put Bell on the PS, he and everyone else knows he needs a good year (or more) of pro practice to get him not to lunge too much when his blocks take him to the second level (or likely when even a second year player will try to suck him in to being too aggressive and pivot off an aggressive attack by him to rush the passer or make a tackle. From the scouting reports I read, Bell is a tall man and of course naturally plays up high and like any rookie is pretty vulnerable to being attacked by a even a young vet who has learned how to maintain a low center of gravity. He will get better over time almost certainly, but though his frame can easily take the growth which goes on being on a Pro diet with Pro weight training, as enthused as all are by Bell he is a good year of more away from being the LT we would want.

 

Might Bell simply leave if Belicheck came to his PS door and promised him a roster spot. Sure. However, Bell would be acting like a sleazy varmint if he simply booked on thw Bills without giving them some chance to meet the BB or other team's offer. In fact, if he proved so low grade a personality that in response to the Bills giving him a 3 year rather than the standard 2 year offer, quite frankly I do not think we would want the puss bucket that did not even give us a chance to match the BB or other idiots' offer.

 

Just as with Peters when other teams began sniffing around and offering him a roster spot instead of mere PS status if he jumped teams, Peters first move was to say thanks and he would get back to them and his second move was to call te Bills and demand a roster spot from us unless we signed him.

 

The bottomline is that if we put Bell on the PS (which all signs point to him needing a year at least to be there because as potentially talented as he is, opposing vets would rape him if he were to start.

 

In fact, the main reason I think BB might want to hint that he is gonna sign Bell off our PS is in an attempt to sucker the Bills into using a roster spot on a player who we would never start. I know you are hyped on Bell and I also am hyped on his potential. However, i think the best analogy for him is that of a cut-rate Ryan Denney. Denney also was an impressive specimen, but as a tall guy he was simply unplayable as a position player because he had not yet learned how to bend properly to maintain his leverage against a vet. He was simply inactive almost his entire rookie year. Bell is talented but not only suffers from the tall man's disease in terms of leverage (he can learn it in a year or less of practice against pros) but apparently when he does get put on the ground he is a little slow in recovering and getting back into the play.

 

He has done well in his brief collegiate career because he was simply bigger and stronger than most of his good but lower than top tier collegiate opponents. However, when he comes to the NFL, like alll rookies he will find out it is a different world playing against the vets. They not only are at top tier collegiate level but they are the best of the best. You really are demanding too much of a rookie who has not played much at all, who there is consensus agreement among all the scouts (unless you did not notice no one drafted him) that he is a good year away.

 

Put him on the PS and like Peters if someone comes sniffing around AND he is good enough at PS to command a roster spot then sign him to the active roster. If he is such a low life that he would not give the Bills a chance to match the offer then good riddance that he is gone because even Peters who proved to be someone willing to not meet his contract at least was honest enough to give the Bills right of first refusal when other team's cam knocking.

 

In fact, the key to Peters getting a lot interest was most likely not because the rest of the NFL knew right from the start he would be a Pro Bowler (if they did and even if they thought so for Bell they would have drafted him) the key was that word got out that Peters was unblockable on ST and this is what made him worth a roster spot.

 

Thus if you want to make the argument that the Bills are risking Bell unless they sign him to the permanent roster, this would actually only be true if there were good indicators he is a good ST player. All the arguments you make that he is a solid blocking prospects are all good reasons why you PS the guy. It would take a solid demonstration that he is an ST god to get anyone serious about giving him a roster spot this year.

 

If folks are interested in that then actually the PS waiver is likely the bigger risk we would be taking, but as every other team in the league has already recently decided not to draft him the chances of a waiver pick up are small. The chances of someone signing him off the PS are there but likewise the Bills will get a shot at matching any offer unless Bell is a complete lowlife. With is missionary parents background my guess is that he is a solid guy and the Bills (having already graced him with a long-term contract will get that ability to match any deal.

[zazie]

Yep. Like life there are risks with just about anything important one does. The question generally is one of managing those risk well to keep liabilities low and to maximize upside opportunities and minimize downside.

 

The Jason Peters case is a good case study (apropos actually since they are both OLers) which I think indicates a lot.

 

Peters and Bell are similar in that they both were athletes with great demographic upsides who as of yet have not made a showing against the highest quality DL opposition to make it a no-brainer to try to lock 'em up contractually.

 

Peters had zero experience as an OL player but showed incredibly soft hands and athleticism to attract interest (it surprised many he went undrafted as a TE prospect. However, what Mouse saw in him that he was the most talented big man he ever coached drew significant interest. Peters appreciated the Bills being willing to sign him after he went UDFA. Likewise, though I am sure Bell is under no illusions that he owes loyalty to the Bills (in this man's game the fact is he does not owe the Bills a ton as yes we gave him a chance, but no we have not committed to him long term though his 3 year deal versus a 2 year deal expresses great interest.

 

Just as Peters could have flown the coop to elsewhere if someone offered him a permanent deal while he was on our PS, other moves made far more sense when opponents came sniffing around. Put Bell on the PS, he and everyone else knows he needs a good year (or more) of pro practice to get him not to lunge too much when his blocks take him to the second level (or likely when even a second year player will try to suck him in to being too aggressive and pivot off an aggressive attack by him to rush the passer or make a tackle. From the scouting reports I read, Bell is a tall man and of course naturally plays up high and like any rookie is pretty vulnerable to being attacked by a even a young vet who has learned how to maintain a low center of gravity. He will get better over time almost certainly, but though his frame can easily take the growth which goes on being on a Pro diet with Pro weight training, as enthused as all are by Bell he is a good year of more away from being the LT we would want.

 

Might Bell simply leave if Belicheck came to his PS door and promised him a roster spot. Sure. However, Bell would be acting like a sleazy varmint if he simply booked on thw Bills without giving them some chance to meet the BB or other team's offer. In fact, if he proved so low grade a personality that in response to the Bills giving him a 3 year rather than the standard 2 year offer, quite frankly I do not think we would want the puss bucket that did not even give us a chance to match the BB or other idiots' offer.

 

Just as with Peters when other teams began sniffing around and offering him a roster spot instead of mere PS status if he jumped teams, Peters first move was to say thanks and he would get back to them and his second move was to call te Bills and demand a roster spot from us unless we signed him.

 

The bottomline is that if we put Bell on the PS (which all signs point to him needing a year at least to be there because as potentially talented as he is, opposing vets would rape him if he were to start.

 

In fact, the main reason I think BB might want to hint that he is gonna sign Bell off our PS is in an attempt to sucker the Bills into using a roster spot on a player who we would never start. I know you are hyped on Bell and I also am hyped on his potential. However, i think the best analogy for him is that of a cut-rate Ryan Denney. Denney also was an impressive specimen, but as a tall guy he was simply unplayable as a position player because he had not yet learned how to bend properly to maintain his leverage against a vet. He was simply inactive almost his entire rookie year. Bell is talented but not only suffers from the tall man's disease in terms of leverage (he can learn it in a year or less of practice against pros) but apparently when he does get put on the ground he is a little slow in recovering and getting back into the play.

 

He has done well in his brief collegiate career because he was simply bigger and stronger than most of his good but lower than top tier collegiate opponents. However, when he comes to the NFL, like alll rookies he will find out it is a different world playing against the vets. They not only are at top tier collegiate level but they are the best of the best. You really are demanding too much of a rookie who has not played much at all, who there is consensus agreement among all the scouts (unless you did not notice no one drafted him) that he is a good year away.

 

Put him on the PS and like Peters if someone comes sniffing around AND he is good enough at PS to command a roster spot then sign him to the active roster. If he is such a low life that he would not give the Bills a chance to match the offer then good riddance that he is gone because even Peters who proved to be someone willing to not meet his contract at least was honest enough to give the Bills right of first refusal when other team's cam knocking.

 

In fact, the key to Peters getting a lot interest was most likely not because the rest of the NFL knew right from the start he would be a Pro Bowler (if they did and even if they thought so for Bell they would have drafted him) the key was that word got out that Peters was unblockable on ST and this is what made him worth a roster spot.

 

Thus if you want to make the argument that the Bills are risking Bell unless they sign him to the permanent roster, this would actually only be true if there were good indicators he is a good ST player. All the arguments you make that he is a solid blocking prospects are all good reasons why you PS the guy. It would take a solid demonstration that he is an ST god to get anyone serious about giving him a roster spot this year.

 

If folks are interested in that then actually the PS waiver is likely the bigger risk we would be taking, but as every other team in the league has already recently decided not to draft him the chances of a waiver pick up are small. The chances of someone signing him off the PS are there but likewise the Bills will get a shot at matching any offer unless Bell is a complete lowlife. With is missionary parents background my guess is that he is a solid guy and the Bills (having already graced him with a long-term contract will get that ability to match any deal.

good explanation thanks much.

[Big Daddy JC]

"Might Bell simply leave if Belicheck came to his PS door and promised him a roster spot. Sure. However, Bell would be acting like a sleazy varmint if he simply booked on thw Bills without giving them some chance to meet the BB or other team's offer. In fact, if he proved so low grade a personality that in response to the Bills giving him a 3 year rather than the standard 2 year offer, quite frankly I do not think we would want the puss bucket that did not even give us a chance to match the BB or other idiots' offer."

 

"The bottomline is that if we put Bell on the PS (which all signs point to him needing a year at least to be there because as potentially talented as he is, opposing vets would rape him if he were to start."

 

Put him on the PS and like Peters if someone comes sniffing around AND he is good enough at PS to command a roster spot then sign him to the active roster. If he is such a low life that he would not give the Bills a chance to match the offer then good riddance that he is gone because even Peters who proved to be someone willing to not meet his contract at least was honest enough to give the Bills right of first refusal when other team's cam knocking.

 

"The chances of someone signing him off the PS are there but likewise the Bills will get a shot at matching any offer unless Bell is a complete lowlife. With is missionary parents background my guess is that he is a solid guy and the Bills (having already graced him with a long-term contract will get that ability to match any deal."

 

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.

Time to get off your high horse there Pokey. You make it sound like I'm demanding a starting spot for him. I am simply saying that the rush to shove him to the PS because he's a UDFA is short sighted. They have these things in the NFL known as backup linemen to add depth to a position in case a starter gets injured. I am saying he should be given the chance to earn one of those spots in training camp before the PS chants start. If he went to the PS and BB did come sniffing around, the Bills would have to sign him to the active roster or lose him to a division rival. Now, if they decided to match the offer, where would they plug him in? Maybe as a backup lineman and special teamer (just where I suggested he would fit in). Don't trash the young man's character until you know more about him and don't dismiss his skills against NFL talent until you've seen him in action against NFL talent. Try basing your comments on knowledge rather than supposition.