SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 I cringe to think many people here think their arguments go into the realm of deep thoughts with Jack Handy. Metaphysics if the queen of all science and all other sciences are subject to it. Metaphysics makes no claims as a substitute for other sciences, but makes generalities as to all of them. When biology or chemistry dictates to metaphysics it's beyond their scope as the one is empirical and matter, and other is spiritual and abstracted from mater. Biologists will say all life is in flux materially in regards to the body, a metaphysicist can say, "This is John despite his matter in constant flux." The problem with all the arguments here is that they are based on false suppositions, poor constructed contradictions and contraries posed as consistent with reason, and finally that I'm a lemming for not believing 2+3=blue. Take this gem by Dr. Sam Harris just posted above: "faith when it comes to metaphysics doesnt make sense." Really? Why? Because he said so. Faith is not a quantitative thing whatsoever, and is therefore beyond the physical. Metaphysics means literally "beyond physics" and if something cannot be quantified it's metaphysical. God is spirit and is not quantifiable such as where is He and where is He made of questions. That's juvenile and sophomoric. Take the word justice and apply those same criteria of questions. Justice is not quantifiable, and to quantify God into your conundrum is just as preposterous as to have a dog tell you its more intelligent than you. Maybe the dog i... well nevermind. I think the real answer for all these arguments against God existing is precisely because God exists. No one protests the existence of easter bunnies precisely because they don't exist. Imagine spending your time over and over proving something which doesn't exist, like unicorns, and expect people to think you are sane. Welcome to that society. How do bees make honey, or birds make nests for their young without training? Who gives those instincts without learning? Why do salmon run up the stream to lay their eggs? Why do humans strive for happiness even if they seek it in ridiculous things? In this life there is a consistent design which is definite and provable. There is no such thing as a causeless effect. All effects come their source as all designs need a Designer. Life works in a harmony not understandable independently, just as ants do not know why they build a nest, how natural food chains are for harmony although each part doesn't contemplate it's own reasoning in the chain, but they do by design by a Designer. Whether you deny that truth is not relevant, it's clear God designed this world. nobody wants to answer the question?????? what r u calling god? where is he? what is outside of time and the universe..... what is god made of? also this design argument makes no sense because by your logic since the universe is so complex it needs a designer, well by ur own definintion the designer needs to b just as or more complex therefore he must need a designer. unless u think god randomly came into existence... which doesnt make sense. any other answer would go against ur own logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 would u accept my answer in the court room that my fingerprints magically showed up and the prosecution has to prove that it didnt.... come on people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 would u accept my answer in the court room that my fingerprints magically showed up and the prosecution has to prove that it didnt.... come on people. Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence! No more questions your honor. Speaking of the court room and magic, I sometimes tell people when they ask that I believe in God in a "Miracle on 34th Street" sort of way. I don't want to be the guy who says that magic does not exist and I definitely believe in the good things that are meant to be represented by it, but if you start asking questions about where exactly is God's mailing address at the North Pole, then yes, you are going to be very disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed and Amuzed Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 nobody wants to answer the question?????? what r u calling god? where is he? what is outside of time and the universe..... what is god made of? I'll give you an analogy as to why we don't understand God. Disclaimer: This is my opinion and only my opinion. I have a dog and I keep him in a kennel when I'm not home. When I come home and peak my head in the door he is in disbelief. He simply can not understand how I can disappear and reappear. As far as he knows all food comes from me and me alone. I am the one who designates when he goes outside. Now he is simply a dog. It doesn't matter if he is the smartest dog in the world. He simply will never comprehend that I bought him and now just control his actions for the most part. To him I am like a God. To him I determine everything he does and he treats me as if I'm the end all be all. Which is why he is loyal to me and me only. Just because he doesn't understand how I can do my "magic" doesn't mean it's "magic". He just doesn't understand what I do because his brain can only take in so much info. I see God as the same. I see evidence that there is a higher power. You may not but I do. I am incapable of ever understanding what God might or might not be. It is foolish and presumptuous to pretend any of us know one way or the other. There are things we can not explain. Some call it God and some coincidence. I guess it just depends on how you want to deal with it. The way I see it, there is nothing wrong with not believing in God but preaching it is NO DIFFERENT THEN A CHRISTEN/CATHOLIC/MUSLIM ETC. PREACHING THAT THERE IS ONE. There is no difference in believers and non believers when it comes to this discussion. I sincerely doubt that we're going to figure out whether God exists on OTW. It's a great discussion to have and I'm enjoying it but what makes it better is the way it's being had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence! No more questions your honor. Speaking of the court room and magic, I sometimes tell people when they ask that I believe in God in a "Miracle on 34th Street" sort of way. I don't want to be the guy who says that magic does not exist and I definitely believe in the good things that are meant to be represented by it, but if you start asking questions about where exactly is God's mailing address at the North Pole, then yes, you are going to be very disappointed. its not a matter of being disapointed its just me searching for truth and identifying what is the best way to search for truth, faith or reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyT Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 its not a matter of being disapointed its just me searching for truth and identifying what is the best way to search for truth, faith or reason? A football message board seems like the obvious place to start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nervous Guy Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 A football message board seems like the obvious place to start... indeed....there is very little faith or reason here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 its not a matter of being disapointed its just me searching for truth and identifying what is the best way to search for truth, faith or reason? Truth? I happen to be in the uniquely advantageous position of having an undergraduate philosophy degree and being an internet-ordained minister of a non-denominational interfaith church (in order to perform the wedding of a good friend of mine). Even more importantly, I am a Buffalo Bills fan. So, it is with these noble and lofty credentials that I can tell you that Truth is a big fat lump of horseshyte resting on the end of a dirty popsicle stick. Furthermore, at some point in your life, you will find yourself eagerly licking it in spite of yourself. If you are one of the lucky few, you will succeed in convincing yourself that it is delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed and Amuzed Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Truth? I happen to be in the uniquely advantageous position of having an undergraduate philosophy degree and being an internet-ordained minister of a non-denominational interfaith church (in order to perform the wedding of a good friend of mine). Even more importantly, I am a Buffalo Bills fan. So, it is with these noble and lofty credentials that I can tell you that Truth is a big fat lump of horseshyte resting on the end of a dirty popsicle stick. Furthermore, at some point in your life, you will find yourself eagerly licking it in spite of yourself. If you are one of the lucky few, you will succeed in convincing yourself that it is delicious. I love the BHole Surfers reference there Gringo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 Truth? I happen to be in the uniquely advantageous position of having an undergraduate philosophy degree and being an internet-ordained minister of a non-denominational interfaith church (in order to perform the wedding of a good friend of mine). Even more importantly, I am a Buffalo Bills fan. So, it is with these noble and lofty credentials that I can tell you that Truth is a big fat lump of horseshyte resting on the end of a dirty popsicle stick. Furthermore, at some point in your life, you will find yourself eagerly licking it in spite of yourself. If you are one of the lucky few, you will succeed in convincing yourself that it is delicious. i just got out of the coast guard and plan on going to school and studying philosophy and also microbiology. anyways i think truth is more concise and tenable then u let on and most of the time its a great thing when we realize that, hey, we can have ethics and morality in our discourse without the idealogy of sin... but yes sometime we dont always like the taste of truth and we will especially as bills fans always lie to ourselves in the name of faith!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 i just got out of the coast guard and plan on going to school and studying philosophy and also microbiology. anyways i think truth is more concise and tenable then u let on and most of the time its a great thing when we realize that, hey, we can have ethics and morality in our discourse without the idealogy of sin...but yes sometime we dont always like the taste of truth and we will especially as bills fans always lie to ourselves in the name of faith!!!! You definitely take these big fundamental notions very seriously and you seem driven to think critically about them. I bet you will really like your philosophy classes very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 sometimes i am to serious haha but anyways how did u like philosophy and what specific studies do u dive into now that help with the big questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 sometimes i am to serious haha but anyways how did u like philosophy and what specific studies do u dive into now that help with the big questions? I recommend elevating grammar and punctuation above metaphysics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 I recommend elevating grammar and punctuation above metaphysics. sry but u r not my professor, this is a message board so go and critique somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 sry but u r not my professor, this is a message board so go and critique somewhere else. Because message boards are not places to critique others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 critique ideas relevant to the discussion, not to elevate yourself while pointing out others mistakes not relevant to the discussion in particular with grammar. relax dude we all know how smart u r. its ok, im sure us subordinates will adhere 2 ur instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 critique ideas relevant to the discussion, not to elevate yourself while pointing out others mistakes not relevant to the discussion in particular with grammar. relax dude we all know how smart u r. its ok, im sure us subordinates will adhere 2 ur instructions. Sorry. I don't normally point out grammar errors. I have plenty. I hold people to this standard: try to communicate using your best understanding of grammar rules. Willful disregard of things like punctuation and capitalization, not to mention spelling, undermines your ability to communicate effectively. That's a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAM HARRIS Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 Sorry. I don't normally point out grammar errors. I have plenty. I hold people to this standard: try to communicate using your best understanding of grammar rules. Willful disregard of things like punctuation and capitalization, not to mention spelling, undermines your ability to communicate effectively. That's a fact. whatever man, go drink a beer and calm down. not really sure how my conversation in this thread isnt tenable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 whatever man, go drink a beer and calm down. not really sure how my conversation in this thread isnt tenable? Tihs wkros too, but it deonst mkae it rghit wehn cmmicuonaintg wtih oehtrs. I fingered you because you're a serial abuser who may have an understanding of grammar rules. If you were just a short-buser like VABills, I would let your illiterate posts slide. (He was a Marine so he doesn't mind taking some shrapnel now and then.) Following rules of grammar--or at least trying to--shows respect and courtesy. Like looking a person in the eye when talking. Like dressing appropriately for a meeting. Like showing up on time. You don't have to do these things. You can be a real rebel and l33t speak it up all you want to if that's what makes you feel cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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