JoeF Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 It would be interesting to know the offers made to Jonas and Pat before the 2004 season began. Schobel's offer seems to have been much more competitive and while Aaron's sack total was down this year--his run stuffing was much improved, he forced 5 fumbles, plus he has never missed a game in 4 years. Jonas Jennings, as has been well chronicled, has missed games every year--and much if it has to do with shoulder and ankle issues--I wonder if something potentially chronic is developing -- he averages somewhere between 3 and 4 missed games a year. He is above average when in the game and not hurting but he has had games where he looks awful -- usually either before or just after missing a couple. This is not a guy I would think demands Tait/Diem type money, let alone Pace/Jones or Ogden type bucks to be honest. We need a replacement, but we also have a lot invested in the line already -- we need to get both a starting LT and LG out of a cap number that Jonas would want for himself. Pat Williams is the proverbial warrior. Very durable, play disruptor, etc. But I watched Ron Edwards a lot this year..especially in the Dolphins home game where he spent the day in the Dolphins backfield..He is not Pat Williams when it comes to being the immovable object--but he has some skills that can offer consistent push. Pat is 32--his tackles this year dropped by 30-40% from the previous two years...and the Defense overall is a lot better than when we let Ted Washington go 4 years ago...Pat is not worth $5 million a year to us...he may be to some other team that needs to upgrade their D, but for us, we have invested in other areas of the D (LB, Secondary in particular to upgrade)--we need to have a cheaper DT that has come up through the system and we need to invest in making our 3rd down Defense better--(pass coverage LB, another corner, pass rusher) --which is something Pat had little influence over.... I will miss Jonas and Pat--but I think resigning them to big contracts are more like "Jerry O and John Holocek" moves than they are "Moulds, Schobel and Pat Williams first extension like" moves..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 It would be interesting to know the offers made to Jonas and Pat before the 2004 season began. Schobel's offer seems to have been much more competitive and while Aaron's sack total was down this year--his run stuffing was much improved, he forced 5 fumbles, plus he has never missed a game in 4 years. Jonas Jennings, as has been well chronicled, has missed games every year--and much if it has to do with shoulder and ankle issues--I wonder if something potentially chronic is developing -- he averages somewhere between 3 and 4 missed games a year. He is above average when in the game and not hurting but he has had games where he looks awful -- usually either before or just after missing a couple. This is not a guy I would think demands Tait/Diem type money, let alone Pace/Jones or Ogden type bucks to be honest. We need a replacement, but we also have a lot invested in the line already -- we need to get both a starting LT and LG out of a cap number that Jonas would want for himself. Pat Williams is the proverbial warrior. Very durable, play disruptor, etc. But I watched Ron Edwards a lot this year..especially in the Dolphins home game where he spent the day in the Dolphins backfield..He is not Pat Williams when it comes to being the immovable object--but he has some skills that can offer consistent push. Pat is 32--his tackles this year dropped by 30-40% from the previous two years...and the Defense overall is a lot better than when we let Ted Washington go 4 years ago...Pat is not worth $5 million a year to us...he may be to some other team that needs to upgrade their D, but for us, we have invested in other areas of the D (LB, Secondary in particular to upgrade)--we need to have a cheaper DT that has come up through the system and we need to invest in making our 3rd down Defense better--(pass coverage LB, another corner, pass rusher) --which is something Pat had little influence over.... I will miss Jonas and Pat--but I think resigning them to big contracts are more like "Jerry O and John Holocek" moves than they are "Moulds, Schobel and Pat Williams first extension like" moves..... 255043[/snapback] >>>I will miss Jonas and Pat--but I think resigning them to big contracts are more like "Jerry O and John Holocek" moves than they are "Moulds, Schobel and Pat Williams first extension like" moves..... <<< BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is the difference in style between Mr Butler and TD. With respect to Mr Butler, he was at least as good on draft day as was TD. I think that he was better. TD is a better cap man. There is ZERO reason to sign these two at a huge cap cost. They do NOT deserve to be paid like Pace and Seymour. They are not nearly as good. TD will let them walk if need be, and I resoect him for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP-era Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 It would be interesting to know the offers made to Jonas and Pat before the 2004 season began. Schobel's offer seems to have been much more competitive and while Aaron's sack total was down this year--his run stuffing was much improved, he forced 5 fumbles, plus he has never missed a game in 4 years. Jonas Jennings, as has been well chronicled, has missed games every year--and much if it has to do with shoulder and ankle issues--I wonder if something potentially chronic is developing -- he averages somewhere between 3 and 4 missed games a year. He is above average when in the game and not hurting but he has had games where he looks awful -- usually either before or just after missing a couple. This is not a guy I would think demands Tait/Diem type money, let alone Pace/Jones or Ogden type bucks to be honest. We need a replacement, but we also have a lot invested in the line already -- we need to get both a starting LT and LG out of a cap number that Jonas would want for himself. Pat Williams is the proverbial warrior. Very durable, play disruptor, etc. But I watched Ron Edwards a lot this year..especially in the Dolphins home game where he spent the day in the Dolphins backfield..He is not Pat Williams when it comes to being the immovable object--but he has some skills that can offer consistent push. Pat is 32--his tackles this year dropped by 30-40% from the previous two years...and the Defense overall is a lot better than when we let Ted Washington go 4 years ago...Pat is not worth $5 million a year to us...he may be to some other team that needs to upgrade their D, but for us, we have invested in other areas of the D (LB, Secondary in particular to upgrade)--we need to have a cheaper DT that has come up through the system and we need to invest in making our 3rd down Defense better--(pass coverage LB, another corner, pass rusher) --which is something Pat had little influence over.... I will miss Jonas and Pat--but I think resigning them to big contracts are more like "Jerry O and John Holocek" moves than they are "Moulds, Schobel and Pat Williams first extension like" moves..... 255043[/snapback] I cant and wont agree with your cap assessments, TD has always found a way to get the guys he wants and we always seem to feel pretty good about the contracts. That makes the notion that we cant get x,y, or z ludicrous to me. TD can get it done. That said, we need upgrades at both positions. Could we absorb a slight downgrade at DT, yes probably. But we simply cant at LT, IMO. This is the most important year to have a very good LT with ayoung QB starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phlegm Alley Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 He didn't want to overpay for Peerless who was demanding #1 type of money, he didn't resign Winfield, who also wanted #1 CB money and he certainly won't do the same for Williams or JJ. If there is one mover that is imperative this offseason, TD really needs to resign Nate, who should be a cornerstone of this defense along with Schobel for years to come. You should be able to tell what TD will do with upcoming FA by just checking out his draft pattern. If he drafts a CB early, you might not see Nate in a Bills uniform in 06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted February 28, 2005 Author Share Posted February 28, 2005 I cant and wont agree with your cap assessments, TD has always found a way to get the guys he wants and we always seem to feel pretty good about the contracts. That makes the notion that we cant get x,y, or z ludicrous to me. TD can get it done. That said, we need upgrades at both positions. Could we absorb a slight downgrade at DT, yes probably. But we simply cant at LT, IMO. This is the most important year to have a very good LT with ayoung QB starting. 255069[/snapback] JP-E your point of view has legitimacy, but I would offer that we have let guys like Price, Winfield, Wiley, Washington, Cowart go and their demands have been cited as the issue.... TD and Ralph aren't taking the Snyder philosophy of making it work to get whomever they want by mortgaging the future--Ralph already went through that trying to keep the nineties team together by signing the fringe guys to way over market deals--TD has made other mistakes--his judgement on a couple of key decisions has not panned out (Gregg Williams, Drew Bledsoe)--but if this team ever contends -- it will be for the long haul because of the cap management strategy that has been developed...just my opinion--we agree to disagree I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP-era Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 JP-E your point of view has legitimacy, but I would offer that we have let guys like Price, Winfield, Wiley, Washington, Cowart go and their demands have been cited as the issue.... TD and Ralph aren't taking the Snyder philosophy of making it work to get whomever they want by mortgaging the future--Ralph already went through that trying to keep the nineties team together by signing the fringe guys to way over market deals--TD has made other mistakes--his judgement on a couple of key decisions has not panned out (Gregg Williams, Drew Bledsoe)--but if this team ever contends -- it will be for the long haul because of the cap management strategy that has been developed...just my opinion--we agree to disagree I guess. 255081[/snapback] Im not sure we disagree. I dont want to overpay anymore than you do. I guess Im looking to add a few studs who can put us over the top. I feel we are so damn close and a Kearse and Owens will put us squarely in the playoffs. I like us grabbing a big name guy or guys but for a reasonable contract. Do I want to pay Pace money for Jennings, NO. Do I want to pay Pace money for Pace, yeah I guess I do. Adding a stud at LT would do HUGEthings to help JP be successfull, not having to "sweat" your blindside will give him the ability to feel more comfortable which should equate to better decisions early. Im worried about what we do at LT. Many want Shelton there but questioned Jennings play at LT. How can people honestly state that Shelton is a sure fire upgrade to Jennings? Its too important a position for us to downgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgun Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 >>>I will miss Jonas and Pat--but I think resigning them to big contracts are more like "Jerry O and John Holocek" moves than they are "Moulds, Schobel and Pat Williams first extension like" moves..... <<< BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is the difference in style between Mr Butler and TD. With respect to Mr Butler, he was at least as good on draft day as was TD. I think that he was better. TD is a better cap man. There is ZERO reason to sign these two at a huge cap cost. They do NOT deserve to be paid like Pace and Seymour. They are not nearly as good. TD will let them walk if need be, and I respect him for it. 255060[/snapback] Yes Neither of the two warrant big money. There is a person that does deserve lots of bling bling, he is the biggest play maker on our D forget the 4th downer. He is Nate Clements. The more I read into this Jonas/Pat dilemma, the more i see #22 walking right through the front door without any contract being offered to him. Come on TD show the man the money he is rightfully due!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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