Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl

[thewildrabbit]

Alpha dog I usually like your posts but that one in question had a lot of inaccurate info. Rabbit, you could have been nicer though. So both of you are partly to blame.

 

Lets talk football guys... GO Bills

Your right I could have been nicer, but then...

I want to give you an award for one of the worst posts, both for its pathetic historical inaccuracies and total gibberish, that this board has seen this offseason...congratulations, for your suckitude is unmatched...

 

The rest of your post is so full of gibberish that I am not even going to bother responding to it all...I mean you are actually calling GB a WCO...geezus, your posts get more worthless every time I see you.

Your replies to the points I posted again are comical and you totally grasping at air.

You make yourself out to be a fool with the gibberish you post like that, so don't get mad when it gets pointed out.

I cant even respond to this nonsense any more...we get it...you think Joe Montana was only good because of the system...its not even worth responding to that anymore because its so stupid and isnt worth the time. You might be the only genius on Earth that thinks Joe Montana was only a systems QB...lmao

I'm a Bills fan and simply want to post my opinion on occasion. I try to be considerate most of the time to others here because I know they are like me, a Bills fan.

 

Some people on the other hand feel the need to call names , cast insults and condescend If someone doesn't agree with them.

 

This guy can be a real jerk at times and obviously has some serious insecurity issues to feel the need to put down those that don't agree with him. I actually feel bad for him...and the people that know him.

[Alphadawg7]

I have never denied Joe M wasn't a great QB, although you seem to think I'm stating that by saying he would have failed with a bad team.

 

You can put Joe M on as high a pedestal as you want and it still doesn't alter the fact that it took 3 years for him to develop in the same system with the same coaches, so it didn't happen INSTANTLY like you claim in previous posts in this thread.

 

Try and grasp the 30+ point differential between the 1980 team and the 1981 team, look at the teams with the best records every year and they usually have a very positive turnover ratio, conversely the losing teams have a negative ratio. That 1981 49er team wasn't great because of only Joe Montana, it was great because of the coaching, the players on the offense and defense and the play of the ENTIRE TEAM. Something you say you understand but then deny is the TEAM CONCEPT, the 81 49ers had a great defense, they were #1 in the NFL in turnovers and #2 overall in defense.

 

 

So, if Joe M was such a great one man show and could do it all by himself, wth happened when he was traded to KC in 93-94? That KC team was already a playoff team under Marty S and just needed a top QB to get them to the SB, Joe Montana FAILED in KC. He went 11-5 & 9-7 kinda poor showing for the one man team and greatest ever. The Chiefs were (11-5 in 1990)-(10-6 in 1991)-(10-6 in 1992)

 

Like Jim Kelly, Steve Young played in the USFL and had some decent experience like Kelly did with a pro style offense. Even with that USFL experience behind him he went to a bad team and failed, so he wasn't really a rookie when he entered the NFL.

 

 

You still want to argue that Joe Montana could have gone to any team and took them to a SB... but then he went to an already playoff team in Kansas City and couldn't get them to a SB, so I'll say it again, HE FAILED in KC for whatever reason, END OF STORY!

 

So just keep that statement of mine about ole Joe M, it shows the mentality you have

 

Come on...this is rediculous...your posts get crazier with each one...do your homework before you post stuff you googled but actually dont know anything about.

 

SF record:

1978 2-14

1979 2-14 (Walsh first year, Deberg QB, Montana is a rookie)

1980 6-10 (Deberg starts as the starter, Montana officially takes over job for good week 5)

1981 13-3 They win the SB and Montana was MVP...he did it without Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Brent Jones, etc...all players who were later drafted. His only real offensive threat besides himself was the great Dwight Clark. Just one weapon and his FIRST year as the week 1 full time starter!

 

That is a VERY fast and VERY clear immediate impact by Joe over what Deberg was able to do in the same offense. So how can you say his impact wasnt that big nor that fast...and he did it without adding a single significant offensive weapon too.

 

Second, the stuff you wrote about KC is just just doesnt make sense. However, I love how you want to focus on the 15th and 16th years of his career on a offense that had zero talent...but if you want to talk KC, then here we go:

 

First off, he took KC to the AFC championship game when he got there, further than KC had been with that team. Secondly, you dont even know his real record. You claim he was 9-7 in 1994, but he ACTUALLY went 9-5 because he missed two games (both KC lost). In 1993, his actual record was 8-3 as he missed some games that year too.

 

Also, his KC team was a run first team with an aging Marcus Allen. His starting WR's were career losers...Willie Davis and JJ Birden and his other recievers and TE's were even worse. In fact the only 2 years of Wille Davis career that he had at least 50 catches in a season were the two he played with Joe Montana. The only 2 seasons of JJ Birdens career where he had over 45 catches were the two with Joe Montana. These guys were career bums and his primary targets.

 

The # of catches they averaged per year with and without Montanna:

Davis without = 36.5..........Davis with = 51.5 = +40% in production

Birden without = 29............Briden with = 49.5 = +70% in production

 

His entire offense was made of scrubs and an over the hill Marcus Allen who was 33 and 34 years old the 2 years he played with Joe and avg just over 700 yards a season. Not to mention the 4th quarter comebacks he got there.

 

So, was the 2 years in KC the best of his career...no, but they were also the last of his brillian career. But he did pretty good and he did it despite being at the end of a long career on an offense with no talent at all other than an over the hill RB who never broke 800 yards while playing with him.

 

The defense rests...next topic please.

[Alphadawg7]

Let's get back to the basics here. The original question posed in this thread was. "Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown".

 

Let's excuse the lack of a question mark at the end of that obvious question to get to the real answer:

 

No. No he did not. Montana wasn't "Captain Checkdown", nor anything close to it.

 

The intention of the thread seems to be to compare the skills of Montana and Trent Edwards and suggest Trent, under the right circumstances, can lead the Bills to the Super Bowl.

 

Comparing Trent to Joe was pretty freakin' stupid when Trent flashed a bit of skill early in his career. It is downright moronic now. Let's just end this particular chunk of idiocy now. What do you say?

 

Ding Ding Ding...

[Alphadawg7]

Your right I could have been nicer, but then...

 

 

 

I'm a Bills fan and simply want to post my opinion on occasion. I try to be considerate most of the time to others here because I know they are like me, a Bills fan.

 

Some people on the other hand feel the need to call names , cast insults and condescend If someone doesn't agree with them.

 

This guy can be a real jerk at times and obviously has some serious insecurity issues to feel the need to put down those that don't agree with him. I actually feel bad for him...and the people that know him.

 

Come on bro...you slam me all the time, and its usually over something crazy like this. Now you want to play the poor weak victim because I was direct about the points you made? Another I can dish it out but I cant take it poster...

 

Here is a beer on me

[Logical Reasoning]

The idea behind the title of this which included Joe Montana was that there have been successful qbs including Joe Montana, Brett Favre and others; especially those who have run the west coast; who have been successful. I personally hate the title of TE being a check down qb because if that is what you have to do then do it.

 

Also, you can't have four qbs going into training camp with the time equally split between them because no one will be ready. You've done your due dilligence but the cost of that is timing amongst your receivers and the qb and an overall readiness of the first unit.

 

There have been many people who have said that Edwards should not be compared to Montana and you are absolutely correct.

[The Dean]

There have been many people who have said that Edwards should not be compared to Montana and you are absolutely correct.

 

Then why did you do it? Nobody ever called Montana "Captain Checkdown".

 

Yes, some great QBs have been successful in the West Coast Offense. That has virtually nothing to do with being a "check down" QB. And Trent didn't get the nickname "Captain Checkdown" by checking down simply when he had to. He got that nickname because it was his default choice.

 

You seem to be thoroughly confused about what it means to check down and perhaps the basics of the West Coast Offense. It's laudable to be logical. But when your initial assumptions are fakakta your conclusions are bound to be dubious.

 

The best thing you can do for your reputation around here, is to go to the initial post and click on "Delete" and be rid of this ridiculous thread.

[Hossage]

Logical reasoning, you better check yoself before you wreck yoself, foo.

[Alphadawg7]

Then why did you do it? Nobody ever called Montana "Captain Checkdown".

 

Yes, some great QBs have been successful in the West Coast Offense. That has virtually nothing to do with being a "check down" QB. And Trent didn't get the nickname "Captain Checkdown" by checking down simply when he had to. He got that nickname because it was his default choice.

 

You seem to be thoroughly confused about what it means to check down and perhaps the basics of the West Coast Offense. It's laudable to be logical. But when your initial assumptions are fakakta your conclusions are bound to be dubious.

 

The best thing you can do for your reputation around here, is to go to the initial post and click on "Delete" and be rid of this ridiculous thread.

 

Ding Ding Ding again...a page or two back I posted what the west coast offense was really about, something the OP clearly does not understand well enough to differteniate from Trents lack of ability to see the field and anticipate when and where to throw the ball leading to him checking down.

[thewildrabbit]

Come on bro...you slam me all the time, and its usually over something crazy like this. Now you want to play the poor weak victim because I was direct about the points you made? Another I can dish it out but I cant take it poster...

 

Here is a beer on me

 

On the contrary, nobody in this forum attacks others personally like you do, you have a very hard time arguing a point without the names, the insults, the condescending attitude like you are better or know more then they do, your not and you don't!

I'm not crying about it as I just consider the source. Somebody else pointed out that you were wrong and I was being harsh back to you, all I did was give them the reason why.

 

Every point you made about my original post in this thread I proved you wrong and yet ... here you are still arguing.

 

You make a statement that Joe INSTANTLY vastly improved that 49er team... and yet it took him three years. Last time I checked 3 years isn't INSTANTLY, You were wrong, but you still want to argue it.

 

You keep insisting that I disregard Joe Montana and I never have, show me one time that I stated anything other then he was a great QB! My original post in this thread was to correct a poster who called Joe Montana gay!

 

For some reason you refuse to comprehend the fact that Montana could have failed just like Steve Young failed, your problem not mine.

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

um....let's see......When was the last time a great quarterback needed a fan to write a list of reasons he should be starting. If we had such a great quarterback, there would be no reason to write up a list to convince us, he would simply be starting.

 

Oh, and comparing Trent to Joe Montana is just ridiculous. C'mon now Homer.

[Alphadawg7]

On the contrary, nobody in this forum attacks others personally like you do, you have a very hard time arguing a point without the names, the insults, the condescending attitude like you are better or know more then they do, your not and you don't!

I'm not crying about it as I just consider the source. Somebody else pointed out that you were wrong and I was being harsh back to you, all I did was give them the reason why.

 

Every point you made about my original post in this thread I proved you wrong and yet ... here you are still arguing.

 

You make a statement that Joe INSTANTLY vastly improved that 49er team... and yet it took him three years. Last time I checked 3 years isn't INSTANTLY, You were wrong, but you still want to argue it.

 

You keep insisting that I disregard Joe Montana and I never have, show me one time that I stated anything other then he was a great QB! My original post in this thread was to correct a poster who called Joe Montana gay!

 

For some reason you refuse to comprehend the fact that Montana could have failed just like Steve Young failed, your problem not mine.

 

Come on man, is this really still being discussed? What have you proven other than you dont have any idea about Montana and are trying to google info to find holes to dispute the fact that he is one of the 3 greatest QB's of all time. You have gotten every fact you have tried to provide wrong. None of his win loss records were right either because you were too lazy to actually look to see what games he played in those years. You dont know when played, when he became a starter, what was his first full year as a starter, who was on his teams, etc...you have gotten all that wrong in these points you claim disprove the truth. Let me help you sort out the REAL facts about the period you are arguing...

 

What was his record in 1980 when he got to start some games mid season as a 2nd year QB: 3-5

What was his passer rating that season: 87.8

How many games did the 49ers win in each of the previous 2 seasons: 2 each

How many games had he started when 1981 season began? 8

What was their record that year as his first year as the starter? 13-3 with a SB victory and MVP

What was the combined record the previous 3 years? 10-38

How many of these players were on his team that year (Rice, Rathman, Craig, Taylor, Jones): NONE

 

So, in his FIRST year as the teams unquestioned full time starter, his 3rd in the league, he led the team to a 13-3 record, a SB victory and MVP when the previous 3 seasons the team was a combined 10-38.

 

On what planet does that equal a vast impact on the team and a fast turn around? If you dont think thats a major impact on a perennial losing franchise before that and a fast turn around then we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

By the way, friendly piece of advice...if you dont like people being blunt with you, then maybe you shouldnt slam and insult them in other threads. I treat you like you have always treated me.

 

Now...lets just move on already, its pointless arguing about a player you never watched play and have no way to appreciate how great he really was. So here you go, a legitimate friendly beer on me Next topic please...

[thewildrabbit]

Come on man, is this really still being discussed? What have you proven other than you dont have any idea about Montana and are trying to google info to find holes to dispute the fact that he is one of the 3 greatest QB's of all time. You have gotten every fact you have tried to provide wrong. None of his win loss records were right either because you were too lazy to actually look to see what games he played in those years. You dont know when played, when he became a starter, what was his first full year as a starter, who was on his teams, etc...you have gotten all that wrong in these points you claim disprove the truth. Let me help you sort out the REAL facts about the period you are arguing...

Still can't argue without casting insults...

 

No, in fact it is you that have gotten facts wrong, let me provide you with a link to what Joe did his first year.What gets me is that you can't even get the facts right about a guy you worship

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/1980.htm

 

What was his record in 1980 when he got to start some games mid season as a 2nd year QB: 3-5 No 2-5

What was his passer rating that season: 87.8

How many games did the 49ers win in each of the previous 2 seasons: 2 each

How many games had he started when 1981 season began? 8

What was their record that year as his first year as the starter? 13-3 with a SB victory and MVP

What was the combined record the previous 3 years? 10-38

How many of these players were on his team that year (Rice, Rathman, Craig, Taylor, Jones): NONE

Yet, if he was so great why couldn't he go to KC and elevate that team to a SB?

So, in his FIRST year as the teams unquestioned full time starter, his 3rd in the league, he led the team to a 13-3 record, a SB victory and MVP when the previous 3 seasons the team was a combined 10-38. 3 years still doesn't equal INSTANTLY

Also, the 49ers had THREE players on defense go to the pro bowl in 1981, #1 in T/O ratio, #2 in the entire NFL on defense might be a very good reason as to what helped that team win so many games in 1981, it wasn't just Joe now was it!

On what planet does that equal a vast impact on the team and a fast turn around? If you dont think thats a major impact on a perennial losing franchise before that and a fast turn around then we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

By the way, friendly piece of advice...if you dont like people being blunt with you, then maybe you shouldnt slam and insult them in other threads. I treat you like you have always treated me.

 

Like I stated eariler I'm not the one who was butthurt about insults, I was merely pointing out to another poster as to why I was being harsh, again, something you may have picked up if you read and understood everything that is posted.

 

 

Now...lets just move on already, its pointless arguing about a player you never watched play and have no way to appreciate how great he really was. So here you go, a legitimate friendly beer on me

 

I watched him play his first year in the league against the Bills, like I already stated in an eariler post in this thread...

 

Next topic please...

Your correct, it is almost pointless because you never lose an argument... because your never wrong are you?

 

Your Joe M story as being the greatest ever might fly if he went to a bad team and then raised it to a high level with his play, left the team and then it collapsed after he left, like the Dolphins did when Dan Marino left Miami. The 49ers won another SB and had continued success with out Joe, in that WCO.

 

Not only did the 49ers not collapsed after Joe left, he failed to elevate an already playoff KC Chiefs to a SB. Simple facts that you refuse to acknowledge by giving excuses about the teams other players. You keep stating Joe did it all alone in 1981, why couldn't he do it all alone again with the Chiefs?

 

Joe Montana has success with one team and then was replaced, went to another team and didn't ever do as well as he did in SF.

 

 

That same Bill Walsh WCO passing offensive system went on to elevate other QB's on other teams to greatness, those many many coaches who were Bill Walsh disciples went on to win many many games.

 

Bill Walsh changed the face of football. You see his stamp everywhere. He dreamed plays and made magic. You can't watch a football game or coach in this country without seeing something Walsh came up with, West Coast style. His coaching tree is boundless - and color blind.

 

 

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/aug/01/01...-for-teaching1/

[grelit]

um....let's see......When was the last time a great quarterback needed a fan to write a list of reasons he should be starting. If we had such a great quarterback, there would be no reason to write up a list to convince us, he would simply be starting.

 

Oh, and comparing Trent to Joe Montana is just ridiculous. C'mon now Homer.

 

 

+1

[grelit]

Your correct, it is almost pointless because you never lose an argument... because your never wrong are you?

 

Your Joe M story as being the greatest ever might fly if he went to a bad team and then raised it to a high level with his play, left the team and then it collapsed after he left, like the Dolphins did when Dan Marino left Miami. The 49ers won another SB and had continued success with out Joe, in that WCO.

 

Not only did the 49ers not collapsed after Joe left, he failed to elevate an already playoff KC Chiefs to a SB. Simple facts that you refuse to acknowledge by giving excuses about the teams other players. You keep stating Joe did it all alone in 1981, why couldn't he do it all alone again with the Chiefs?

 

Joe Montana has success with one team and then was replaced, went to another team and didn't ever do as well as he did in SF.

 

 

That same Bill Walsh WCO passing offensive system went on to elevate other QB's on other teams to greatness, those many many coaches who were Bill Walsh disciples went on to win many many games.

 

Bill Walsh changed the face of football. You see his stamp everywhere. He dreamed plays and made magic. You can't watch a football game or coach in this country without seeing something Walsh came up with, West Coast style. His coaching tree is boundless - and color blind.

 

 

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/aug/01/01...-for-teaching1/

 

Steve Young credits alot to learning from Joe Montana.

[grelit]

I cannot believe this is still being talked about. I am speechless.

[Guest dog14787]

In my opinion Bill Walsh may have seen character traits in Trent Edwards that possibly reminded him of Joe Montana.

 

Joe cool they called him because of the calm and collected way he carried himself on and off the field. Montana may not have been the strongest armed QB that ever played the game or the most talented, but he was one of the smartest when it came to football. So we have one of the smartest coaches that ever coached in the NFL teamed up with one of the smartest, calmest QB's that ever played in the NFL and what do you get? A Championship of course.

 

Trent Edwards is going to win the starting position here in Buffalo and go on to do great things with Chan Gailey. I'll take Bill Walsh, Marv Levy and when all is said and done, Chan Gailey's opinion over anyone on TSW and if folks on this board think they know better then some of the greatest football minds ever, well, more power to you,

 

but you're not convincing me or anyone else with half a brain by trying to give an accurate evaluation of Trent Edwards,Brohm,Fitzpatrick or even JP friggin Losman when their supporting cast/Coaching/FO here in Buffalo has been a joke.

[grelit]

In my opinion Bill Walsh may have seen character traits in Trent Edwards that possibly reminded him of Joe Montana.

 

Joe cool they called him because of the calm and collected way he carried himself on and off the field. Montana may not have been the strongest armed QB that ever played the game or the most talented, but he was one of the smartest when it came to football. So we have one of the smartest coaches that ever coached in the NFL teamed up with one of the smartest, calmest QB's that ever played in the NFL and what do you get? A Championship of course.

 

Trent Edwards is going to win the starting position here in Buffalo and go on to do great things with Chan Gailey. I'll take Bill Walsh, Marv Levy and when all is said and done, Chan Gailey's opinion over anyone on TSW and if folks on this board think they know better then some of the greatest football minds ever, well, more power to you,

 

but you're not convincing me or anyone else with half a brain by trying to give an accurate evaluation of Trent Edwards,Brohm,Fitzpatrick or even JP friggin Losman when their supporting cast/Coaching/FO here in Buffalo has been a joke.

 

 

Well thought out post and I respect that...but Joe Montana is one of the greatest ever. Trent Edwards is not. Lets not compare these two.

 

I hope you are right about Edwards, we all want to win. Time will tell.

[Alphadawg7]

Your correct, it is almost pointless because you never lose an argument... because your never wrong are you?

 

I love it...the guy who ADMITTEDLY knows nothing about Montana and didnt watch his career is talking about never being wrong in an arguement as he continues to argue something he doesnt know anything about. Priceless.

 

I am not even going to respond to you other points...its pointless, I have alreadly said what I wanted to say about them, you of course say the same factless gibberish over and over again while ignoring the facts presented to you. Its my fault for having a discussion with someone who admittedly didnt watch him play much. That would be like me claiming Willie Mays wasnt that good even though I didnt watch him play and arguing it with a guy who did.

 

If you want responses to those repetitive weak arguments, scroll back in this thread as I already addressed them and you chose to ignore them and just stomp your feet and repeat the same two pointless statements...

 

This might be the only place in the world where someone has to defend how good Montana was...funnier yet, its being done in a thread that was started to defend Trents check down nature as somehoe Montana like. Priceless

[thewildrabbit]

I love it...the guy who ADMITTEDLY knows nothing about Montana and didnt watch his career is talking about never being wrong in an arguement as he continues to argue something he doesnt know anything about. Priceless.

I watched him play like I stated in eariler posts, and more then likely before you ever knew who the guy was. I never admitted not knowing about Montana, again like I stated earlier, it gets me that you worship the guy and don't know his stats.

 

Jeez, I could go to Mexico and eat a bunch of bad taco's and spew as much erroneous crap as you...

 

 

I am not even going to respond to you other points...its pointless, I have alreadly said what I wanted to say about them, you of course say the same factless gibberish over and over again while ignoring the facts presented to you. Its my fault for having a discussion with someone who admittedly didnt watch him play much. That would be like me claiming Willie Mays wasnt that good even though I didnt watch him play and arguing it with a guy who did.

 

If you want responses to those repetitive weak arguments, scroll back in this thread as I already addressed them and you chose to ignore them and just stomp your feet and repeat the same two pointless statements...

Steve Young had previous pro playing experience in the USFL like Jim Kelly, and then went to a bad TB team in the NFL and failed for 2 years...was traded to SF where he REPLACED Joe M.

 

Steve Young was so good in that WCO that the Niners traded away Joe M to KC where he went to an already playoff team and failed to reach another SB. These facts must bother you...

 

 

This might be the only place in the world where someone has to defend how good Montana was...funnier yet, its being done in a thread that was started to defend Trents check down nature as somehoe Montana like. Priceless

YOU started this by attacking my first post in this thread in which I started by defending Montana from someone who said he was gay!

 

 

 

Wanna see Priceless...

 

I'm not the one who is so butthurt that I need to keep someone else's statement in bold below every post I make.

[thewildrabbit]

The thing that was so great about Montana is that he could move the chains and get first down after first down with that short controlled passing game. Dwight Clark was so instrumental in those first few years as the possession receiver, kinda like what Tom Brady has now with Wes Welker.

 

That "go to" possession receiver for the Bills the last few years has been Josh Reed, I doubt the Bills will miss him.