folz
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WTF (part 2)?
Unless Green has a few miracle seasons with the Cards there's very little chance the guy makes the hall. Coaches that haven't even coached in a SB (in the SB era) generally aren't in the Hall.
EDIT: Of the 13 coaches in the Hall that have coached predominately from 1960-present there are only two that didn't win a championship of some sort (AFL, NFL or SB): George Allen and Marv Levy. Both coached in the SB and had other credentials that ultimately got them in.
The fact that there are only 13 coaches from this 46 year period leads me to believe that a coach has to do something special to be elected (unlike say, a QB). Probably only Belichick and Tuna are automatics though Cowher would likely get a nod as well. I’m not sure anyone else mentioned, at least at this point in their careers, would qualify. Shanahan has two SB titles but he’s quite a few lackluster years since Elway retired.
Sorry for the long post...but hope you read it.
I have to agree with MDH.
I read an article recently (sorry, can't remember where...but probably related to the Bills) that was talking about how hard it was for coaches to get into the HOF. And one of the things that the voters discuss is how innovative was the coach, did he change or have an affect on the game and how its played?
Look at the list of HOFers who were innovators on top of their great records and titles
George Allen: "The Future is Now" theme; innovated trades in the league, bringing in vets by
giving up future draft choices.
Paul Brown: credited w/ making coaching a science (using classroom style/intelligence tests),
innovated passing game and created a defense to stop his innovation when other
teams started using it.
Weeb Eubank: Jets SB victory in SB III brought fans to the game and solidified NFL/AFL merger.
Ray Flaherty: Introduced the screen pass and the two platoon (rotation) system to the game.
Sid Gillman: "If you want to ring the cash register you have to pass" brought passing game
innovations and organizational skills that were copied league wide.
George Halas: 1st coach to hold daily practices, utilize film, have games broadcast on the radio.
Earl Lambeau: 1st coach to make the forward pass part of the offense.
Tom Landry: Perfected the flex defense, the multiple offense and revived the shotgun spread.
Marv Levy: Revived importance of the kicking game; No-huddle attack.
Earle Neale: Developed Eagle defense which became today's 4-3 defense.
Chuck Noll: Innovated how teams dealt with the draft, built team almost exclusively through
the draft and shrewd moves on draft day.
Steve Owen: Developed the umbrella defense and A-formation offense.
Hank Stram: Devised the two TE offense and stack defense.
Bill Walsh: developed the west coast style passing game.
All of those guys had great records and won 1 or more NFL championships (except for Marv-but 2 Gray Cups, 6 AFC titles, and 4 SB appearences isn't too shaby).
Now how many coaches are there in the Hall who aren't credited with an innovation of some sort and how did they get in without being an innovator:
Guy Chamberlin: 4 NFL Championships with 3 different teams in a 5 year span; 2 undefeated
seasons as player/coach.
Jimmy Conzelman: Was a player/coach/owner; 2 NFL titles w/two different teams.
Joe Gibbs: Only coach to win 3 SBs w/3 different QBs.
Bud Grant: 11 divisional Championships; went to 4 SBs and won one.
Vince Lombardi: NEVER had a losing season. Nuff said. (5 NFL titles and 2 SBs).
John Madden: 10 years w/ Raiders never had a losing season, highest winning pct. of any coach
with more than 100 games. 1 SB title.
Don Shula: Winningest coach in NFL history; 33 years with two teams only 2 losing seasons; 1972
undefeated season. Coached in 6 SBs won 2.
So, it seems to me that a coach (on top of needing to have a great record and championships) has to have either impacted the game in some way (innovations), proven himself with more than one team and or QB (in Gibbs' situation), or simply be one of the absolute best of all times.
Using this criteria Billy B and Billy P are the only coaches now that I would feel comfortable saying are locks.
Have any of the other coaches in the league today brought innovations to the game? Proven themselves in more than one place? Or will be considered one of the absolute best ever (on top of having great records and championships)?
Look forward to hearing arguments for other guys under these conditions (Holmgren, Shanahan?)
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The theory now is that it takes 3 years to really judge a draft class. Which means we can now judge TDs first 3 drafts (2001-2003)
2001: Still with team:
1/21 CB Nate Clements, who wants out but is locked into a Franchise Tag
2/46 DE Aaron Schobel, probably Donahoe's best selection as GM
2001: No longer with team:
2/58 RB Travis Henry, Tennesse
3/76 DT Ron Edwards, Kansas City
3/95 OT Jonas Jennings, SF
4/110 LB Brandon Spoon, Out of League/Injuried
5/144 OL Marques Sullivan, Out of League
6/178 S Tony Driver, ?
6/195 TE Dan O'Leary, ?
6/196 CB Jimmy Williams, ?
7/214 WR Reggie Germany, Out of League
7/238 DT Tyrone Robertson, ?
2001 Results: 2 out of 12 still with team. Both players still with team are solid starters, however one may not be a Bill much longer
2002: Still with team:
2/36 WR Josh Reed, backup WR
2/61 DE Ryan Denney, rotational DL selected over WR Antwaan Randel'El
3/97 S Coy Wire, Soon to be cut
6/176 CB Kevin Thomas, backup DB
2002: No longer with Bills
1/4 T Mike Williams, Jacskonville
5/139 DT Justin Bannan, Baltimore
7/215 G Mike Pucillo, ?
7/249 WR Rodney Wright, ?
7/251 RB Jarrett Ferguson, ?
7/260 LB Dominique Stevenson, ?
2002 Results: 4/10 still with team. Those 4 aren't much more than backups and one player no longer with team is one of of the biggest draft busts in team history
2003: Still with team
1/23 RB Willis McGahee, starter
2/48 DE Chris Kelsay, rotational DE
3/94 LB Angelo Crowell, backup, ST, and possible future starter
4/111 CB Terrence McGee, all around stud
4/127 WR Sam Aiken, backup
6/187 DT Lauvale Sape, fodder
7/228 LB Mario Haggan, ST player
2003: No longer with team
5/151 G Ben Sobieski, rehabbing with Jonas in SF
2003 Results: 7/8 A better than average RB, an average CB with excellent return skills, a couple backups and ST players, and one potential future starter
So in 3 years TD managed to find 13 out of 30 players worth keeping. Of those 13, only 4 were starting caliber (Clements, Schobel, McGahee, and McGee)
I liked the above post and pretty much agreed...His final analysis seems to be for players still on the team, but in fairness I would go by his words "players worth keeping" and add T Henry and J Jennings as players worth keeping and as starting caliber, even though they're no longer with the team.
Travis obviously wasn't one of the premiere backs in the league while in Buffalo, but you can't discount what he did on the field for this team...he was definitely starting caliber.
Then I saw Bob in STL's post that said, "Free agency has a lot to do with keeping players and it would be ineteresting to know how many players a team like New england has kept from those same three years."
So I thought I'd do a little digging...
Patriots Drafts (player info according to NFL.com and Patriots.com)
2001
1st (round) Richard Seymour DT (starter w/Patriots)
2nd Matt Light G (starter w/Patriots)
3rd Brock Williams DB (Out of the League (OL)
4th Kenyatta Jones G (OL)
4th Jabari Holloway TE (OL)
5th Hakim Akbar DB (OL)
6th Arther Love TE (OL)
6th Leonard Myers DB (OL)
7th Owen Pochman K (OL)
7th TJ Turnwe LB (OL)
2002
1st Daniel Graham TE (starter w/Patriots)
2nd Deion Branch WR (starter w/Patriots)
4th Rohan Davey QB (ARZ)
7th Antwine Womack RB (OL)
7th David Givens (TEN)
2003
1st Ty Warren DT (starter w/Patriots)
2nd Eugene Wilson DB (starter w/Patriots)
4th Dan Klecko DT (still w/Patriots)
4th Asante Samuel DB (starter w/Patriots)
5th Dan Koppen C (starter w/Patriots)
6th Kliff Kingsbury QB (NYJ)
7th Spencer Nead TE (OL)
7th Tully Banta-Cain LB (starter w/Patriots)
7th Ethan Kelley NT (CLE)
So TD's 3-year record: 30 picks, 22 still in the league (73.33%), 14 worth keeping (46.66%), 6 starting caliber (including Henry and Jennings) (20%).
Patriots 3-year record: 24 picks, 14 still in the league (58.33%), 11 worth keeping (if you count Givens in that) (45.83%), 10 starting caliber (again if you include Givens who started the majority of games the last two years) (41.66%)
So Len P. can congratulate TD all he wants for still having players in the league because TD does have 15% more players still in the league from those three drafts than does NE...
But I'd take NE's almost 42% starting caliber players over TD's paltry 20% any day...and that's with NE having 5 fewer 1st day picks in those three drafts.
Maybe some of the sports writers/broadcasters really like TD and that's ok, but they do seem overly anxious to criticize the Bills (be it for TD or RW and the CBA)...and they didn't live the last five years as a Bills fan...
We Bills fans are starting to see an organization with a plan to rebuild a football team, not just create pre-season excitement and revenue...it may take the media a while to see that...whether the new plan works or not, no one knows yet...but I for one have a feeling that we're crawling slowly out of the cellar that TD's decisions and drafts put us in.
Looking at our schedule again after two weeks
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Sorry if talking about the schedule is a worn out topic on the board, but...
I was just looking at the Bills schedule again wondering how different it looks with two weeks of NFL football in the books...now we all know two games does not a season make, some teams start hot and collapse, while others start slow and then get hot as the season goes on...but I couldn't help looking at what could be, based on the first two weeks...guess I'm just still excited about squishin' the Fish!
Very winnable games (no game is a gimme..but you gotta like the Bills chances in these games):
Jets (in Buff)
Detroit
Green Bay (in Buff)
Houston
Dolphins (in Buff, in Dec.)
Titans (in Buff, in Dec.)
Winnable games (tougher games but the Bills will still have a good chance):
Vikings (in Buff)
Patriots (in Buff) (Pats may still have the edge at this point--they always seem to find a way to win--but they didn't walk over Buffalo or the Jets to get to 2-0...and hopefully the 12th man will be alive and well that day)
at the Jets (may be a tougher out in NYC--I mean Jersey--and division games are always tough)
The Tough ones (Might be tough to beat these teams this year...but you never know)
Da Bears (don't forsee a good reunion for Jauron this week)
Colts (Manning, need I say more?)
Jags (in Buff) (Their defense looks stifling)
San Diego (in Buff) (1, 2 run punch...better hope our run defense improves alot)
Ravens (tough D, tough win..unless the Birds are as good as they look and are resting a bunch of guys for the playoffs)
So if you were to count all of the Tough games as losses...with the week one loss to NE, it equals 6 losses.
That means we have the potential for 10 wins...not saying we'll get it, but if the ball bounces our way its a possibility. Even if we only win 1 of the winnable games (the second category above) we'd still be 8-8 which is more than a lot of people thought we'd be (and a hell of alot better than last season).
But I'm rooting that all the stars align and we can scratch out 9 or 10 wins and make the playoffs (even if we couldn't go anywhere once there, just to get that winning feeling back...and then next year Super Bowl)...one can dream can't one
And as a New York City Bills fan (originally from Western NY)...can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to, first, Sunday, and then Monday...talking to J-E-T-S fans and rubbing it in.